Thoughts on the Canon EOS R roadmap

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
447
154
Built in SSD would be nice... in addition to a card slot.
There's no fundamental difference between the way the flash memory in a memory card wears out and the way the flash memory in an SSD wears out. It's much easier to replace a memory card than an internal SSD soldered to the main board when that point comes.
 

Kit.

EOS 7D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
742
303
The most expensive part in Material costs, yes. I'd agree that on paper R&D is a larger part of it for sure. That's actually why I'm 100% positive we will see rebel priced R mount models sooner rather than later, to spread the cost of R&D for the mount an new technologies. And as more of those mainstream cheaper models are sold in much larger quantities the cost comes down significantly. If the developed a new sensor between the Full Frame and 1.6 crop APS-C, I'd imagine it would be around 1.4 or 1.3, and would be used in *everything*. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't do it though.
They have already tried it with the original 1D series. I don't see any reason for them to return to it now, as it would be an uncommon sensor size with no clear market positioning, which means huge R&D costs unlikely to be paid off.

However I think that developing a 1.3 sensor would be the way to get a mostly 1dx speed camera out the door a little sooner,
I don't see how. It's not like they need a smaller mirror that could be flipped faster, and the sensor size alone has little effect on data transfer rates.
 

Bob Howland

EOS 7D MK II
Mar 25, 2012
402
14
At which cost per wafer? Around $3k? Less?

A FF senor is not particularly cheap, but is unlikely the most expensive part of a camera. The most expensive part of a camera is likely R&D amortization.
And a major goal of R&D, which is a "non-recurring expense", is to reduce the "recurring expenses", especially in items being sold in the thousands or tens of thousands of units.
 

criscokkat

EOS 80D
Sep 26, 2017
152
111
Madison, WI
They have already tried it with the original 1D series. I don't see any reason for them to return to it now, as it would be an uncommon sensor size with no clear market positioning, which means huge R&D costs unlikely to be paid off.


I don't see how. It's not like they need a smaller mirror that could be flipped faster, and the sensor size alone has little effect on data transfer rates.
The market positioning of a sensor like this would be something used in every R-mount consumer camera, much like APS-C EF-S sensors are now. This way there would be a clear market delineation between EF-M, consumer level aps-H, and Pro level. If they did a 1dx speed camera using the smaller sensor they'd probably price it/name it as a more expensive 7d type camera to differentiate. A smaller sensor with a lower pixel count would be faster offloading data, and would require less cpu computational horsepower to determine focus and display in the viewfinder. I'm thinking something like 26-28 megs. Most likely the next pro full frame R camera is going to have much more than 30.

But my point on this is that it would be a whole line of cameras, all using the same R-Mount lenses. Probably priced a little higher than the current line, because it's a "step up" from aps-c, but not as expensive as full frame. My main reasoning for this speculation is simply because Canon likes to differentiate the market, but at the same time this gives them an actual improvement above competition. This might also explain why the R came in at a price higher than everyone expected, simply because they wanted room underneath it that allowed price increases also. People would balk at a R version of an APS-C 80d at 13-1400 but they would probably be ok with that price increase if the sensor was larger.
 

CanonFanBoy

EOS 5D MK IV
Jan 28, 2015
3,018
587
Irving, Texas
There's no fundamental difference between the way the flash memory in a memory card wears out and the way the flash memory in an SSD wears out. It's much easier to replace a memory card than an internal SSD soldered to the main board when that point comes.
Eh. Don't know why it would have to be soldered in. Could also be removable.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
447
154
Eh. Don't know why it would have to be soldered in. Could also be removable.
Either way, the camera is going to have to be opened up to get to it. There's no fundamental difference between the memory chips in an SSD and the memory chips in a removable memory card. Why make it more complicated?
 

CanonFanBoy

EOS 5D MK IV
Jan 28, 2015
3,018
587
Irving, Texas
Either way, the camera is going to have to be opened up to get to it. There's no fundamental difference between the memory chips in an SSD and the memory chips in a removable memory card. Why make it more complicated?
SSD will get smaller and smaller. I open my camera now to pull the CF/SD cards. Samsung has a 512gb ssd about the same size as an SD card and it is much faster. No big deal, but I think it could be removable and would be nice. Just what the doctor ordered for those 4k/8k video guys and burst shooters. Downloads a full HD movie in 3 seconds. "Samsung claims that the PM971-NVMe SSD offers read and write speeds of up to 1500MB/s and 900MB/s respectively." So why? Because and why not. Don't see how it would be more complicated at all. No reason at all it couldn't be housed to plug in and out like an SD card. ;)https://gadgets.ndtv.com/laptops/news/samsung-unveils-worlds-smallest-512gb-ssd-that-weighs-just-1-gram-844105

So if there is no "fundamental difference" then I vote for the postage stamp sized SSD with 1500mb/s speed over SD any day. Power draw be damned.
 
Last edited:

dhachey77

EOS M50
Jun 24, 2013
35
3
A galaxy far, far away...
OK, a $1,500 APS-C body with $3,000 lenses doesn't light my fire. Faced with buying all new lenses for the Canon mirrorless, it doesn't really matter which system I buy into. I'm mid way into a transition to a Sony system. I currently have a Canon 1D X and 5D4, with about 10 Canon lenses, and Sony A73 and A7RII bodies with about 8 lenses. I don't see myself buying any more Canon gear as these two fine bodies meet all my needs. I'm keeping the Canon system for wildlife and nature photography, and the Sony system for portraiture and travel work.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
447
154
SSD will get smaller and smaller. I open my camera now to pull the CF/SD cards. Samsung has a 512gb ssd about the same size as an SD card and it is much faster. No big deal, but I think it could be removable and would be nice. Just what the doctor ordered for those 4k/8k video guys and burst shooters. Downloads a full HD movie in 3 seconds. "Samsung claims that the PM971-NVMe SSD offers read and write speeds of up to 1500MB/s and 900MB/s respectively." So why? Because and why not. Don't see how it would be more complicated at all. No reason at all it couldn't be housed to plug in and out like an SD card. ;)https://gadgets.ndtv.com/laptops/news/samsung-unveils-worlds-smallest-512gb-ssd-that-weighs-just-1-gram-844105

So if there is no "fundamental difference" then I vote for the postage stamp sized SSD with 1500mb/s speed over SD any day.
Built in SSD would be nice... in addition to a card slot.
So are you asking for an SSD memory card slot or a built-in SSD?

No, you do not "open the camera" to get to the memory card. You open the memory card door. There's a big difference, dozens of screws, specialized tools, and a lot of skill involved between that and a "built in SSD."

"Samsung has a 512gb ssd about the same size as an SD card and it is much faster."

Have you ever looked at the performance of XQD and CFast memory cards? They're a lot faster than SD cards, too. And they are user removable memory cards that are already used in many cameras.
 

Kit.

EOS 7D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
742
303
The market positioning of a sensor like this would be something used in every R-mount consumer camera, much like APS-C EF-S sensors are now. This way there would be a clear market delineation between EF-M, consumer level aps-H, and Pro level. If they did a 1dx speed camera using the smaller sensor they'd probably price it/name it as a more expensive 7d type camera to differentiate. A smaller sensor with a lower pixel count would be faster offloading data, and would require less cpu computational horsepower to determine focus and display in the viewfinder. I'm thinking something like 26-28 megs. Most likely the next pro full frame R camera is going to have much more than 30.

But my point on this is that it would be a whole line of cameras, all using the same R-Mount lenses. Probably priced a little higher than the current line, because it's a "step up" from aps-c, but not as expensive as full frame. My main reasoning for this speculation is simply because Canon likes to differentiate the market, but at the same time this gives them an actual improvement above competition. This might also explain why the R came in at a price higher than everyone expected, simply because they wanted room underneath it that allowed price increases also. People would balk at a R version of an APS-C 80d at 13-1400 but they would probably be ok with that price increase if the sensor was larger.
80D is currently selling at $1000. 6DII is currently selling at $1300. I don't see a market for your "consumer level aps-H" camera.
 
Reactions: unfocused and Pape

unfocused

EOS 5D SR
80D is currently selling at $1000. 6DII is currently selling at $1300. I don't see a market for your "consumer level aps-H" camera.
Yes. No room for a "consumer" grade camera. On the other hand, while I hate to feed the fantasies of APS-H fans, It would be interesting if, in five years or so when the limitations of mirrorless are less severe, if Canon were to put out a sports oriented "R" camera along the lines of a 7D, but with a 1.3 crop sensor.

Interesting, but highly unlikely, as improvements in both full frame and APS-C have already converged to the point where the image-quality space occupied by a APS-H sensor would be too narrow for any real benefit.
 

Ian K

I'm New Here
Jul 20, 2016
15
0
Give me an R-7DII and a RF 100-400L and I will be happy.

On the other end I want an RF 11-24 f/4 L
 

criscokkat

EOS 80D
Sep 26, 2017
152
111
Madison, WI
80D is currently selling at $1000. 6DII is currently selling at $1300. I don't see a market for your "consumer level aps-H" camera.
Do you hear your own logic here? The 70D is selling for 700. I don't see a market for the 80D. The 6D is selling for 900. I don't see a market for the 6DII.

I think there'd be a market for it. Larger sensor, more light, eye focus & other mirrorless features, slightly higher price. The 60D's original list price was 1399. They lowered it with the 70d and 80d to 1199. No reason an improved camera with an improved sensor and mount wouldn't be able to be priced back at 1399 for the body. It would also be priced under the R by a good amount. Canon's been pretty coy as to any specs as to the cheaper R-Mount camera they will announce soon. To my knowledge they have not confirmed that it's a full frame camera, just that it's an R mount.
 

criscokkat

EOS 80D
Sep 26, 2017
152
111
Madison, WI
Yes. No room for a "consumer" grade camera. On the other hand, while I hate to feed the fantasies of APS-H fans, It would be interesting if, in five years or so when the limitations of mirrorless are less severe, if Canon were to put out a sports oriented "R" camera along the lines of a 7D, but with a 1.3 crop sensor.

Interesting, but highly unlikely, as improvements in both full frame and APS-C have already converged to the point where the image-quality space occupied by a APS-H sensor would be too narrow for any real benefit.
I'd love to see that. I think if it happens it will happen with the first R-Mount camera that's not full frame because everything following it will be based on the same sensor, just like the current aps-c line all uses the same sensor (more or less, some use older versions of same sensor). We should know in a couple of months when they announce the cheaper R-mount camera.
 

Kit.

EOS 7D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
742
303
Do you hear your own logic here? The 70D is selling for 700.
Used, no warranty? Thanks.

The logic is simple: the price difference between APS-C cameras and FF cameras is not large enough to justify wasting money on development of a nonstandard intermediate sensor format and of a "standard" and "wide" zoom lenses for it. People who think APS-C is not good enough for them will buy FF anyway. Or even MF.
 

CanonFanBoy

EOS 5D MK IV
Jan 28, 2015
3,018
587
Irving, Texas
So are you asking for an SSD memory card slot or a built-in SSD?

No, you do not "open the camera" to get to the memory card. You open the memory card door. There's a big difference, dozens of screws, specialized tools, and a lot of skill involved between that and a "built in SSD."

"Samsung has a 512gb ssd about the same size as an SD card and it is much faster."

Have you ever looked at the performance of XQD and CFast memory cards? They're a lot faster than SD cards, too. And they are user removable memory cards that are already used in many cameras.
I'm no asking for anything. I just said I think it would be nice. You don't have to agree.
 

bf

EOS RP
Jul 30, 2014
239
8
I agree with those mentioned $3K lenses of this new mount. Unless Canon can show a range of light, compact, and affordable lenses with acceptable quality ...this system would not become everyones.
In contrast, if the quality is the only thing that Canon can optimize in this wider mount, they better release a flagship body for ASAP.