Dye pack, blows off if it's too far from my cell phone.
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Hillsilly said:As an Australian, I just want to point out that the video is of a comedian - the views don't reflect the majority. FWIW, we don't have a gun ban in Australia (despite what US mass media might have people believe). We do have a more stringent licencing regime than in most places and guns have to be registered. But a licence for a rim fire bolt action rifle is fairly easy to obtain. There is more stringent criteria to get a licence for a handgun or semi-automatic.
Just like in the US, guns are essential tools for our primary producers. They're very prevalent in rural areas and not going anywhere soon.
Even in the cities where gun ownership percentages are very low, there are at least 6 rifle ranges and gun clubs within a few kilometres of my home in Brisbane's eastern suburbs. Shooting is a very popular sport. Supposedly, it is currently the fastest growing sport in the country. Female gun club membership has doubled in the last five years.
Hillsilly said:As an Australian, I just want to point out that the video is of a comedian - the views don't reflect the majority.
Hillsilly said:As an Australian, I just want to point out that the video is of a comedian - the views don't reflect the majority. FWIW, we don't have a gun ban in Australia (despite what US mass media might have people believe). We do have a more stringent licencing regime than in most places and guns have to be registered. But a licence for a rim fire bolt action rifle is fairly easy to obtain. There is more stringent criteria to get a licence for a handgun or semi-automatic.
Just like in the US, guns are essential tools for our primary producers. They're very prevalent in rural areas and not going anywhere soon.
Even in the cities where gun ownership percentages are very low, there are at least 6 rifle ranges and gun clubs within a few kilometres of my home in Brisbane's eastern suburbs. Shooting is a very popular sport. Supposedly, it is currently the fastest growing sport in the country. Female gun club membership has doubled in the last five years.
kirispupis said:We can't have that conversation here.
Mikehit said:kirispupis said:We can't have that conversation here.
True.
It has been quoted several times in different media recently that the majority of Amercians want tighter gun control, a majority of NRA members want greater gun control. Yet the NRA wants to reduce gun control - so if the figures are to be believed this is against the preference of their own members.
With any survey so much comes down to how you phase the question. NRA will phrase it along the lines of 'do you believe in upholding the citizen's right to defend themselves or 'do you defend the right to hunt'. Those in favour of more control will phrase it along the lines of 'do you believe the average citizen needs an assault weapon to defend themselves or to hunt a deer'.
The problem is this is not about the second amendment but is about big business. Pure and simple.
hbr said:We have more deaths in this country due to automobile accidents, so should we abolish cars? We have speed limit laws, but how many of you adhere to them?
hbr said:We also have many deaths on our highways due to alcohol abuse. Should we abolish alcohol? (I say we should, but we have been there and done that and it didn't work).
This discussion is about weapons in private hands. I agree that we still need a military, though a few countries have abolished theirs.hbr said:We have had wars since mankind arrived on this planet. Should we abolish our military to show the world what great people we are? Would that end warfare?
Again, this is a discussion about private arms. It should be noted though, that there have been serious attempts to get rid of nuclear weapons. Some countries (such as Ukraine) have gotten rid of them, while others (the US) actively attempts to prevent others from obtaining them.hbr said:All humanity is horrified by nuclear weapons, as well they should be, so should we abolish our nuclear arsenal? Even if all the major nuclear countries abolished theirs, there would still be stupid leaders like the leader of North Korea that would manufacture them and use them.
Yes, crime would decrease. That is why countries with tighter gun restrictions have fewer murders. A gun is a far more effective murder weapon than a knife. Your chances of survival are much less from a gun and it is a more difficult weapon to defend yourself against.hbr said:My point here is that Pandora's box has been opened. Even if we abolished all weapons other than single shot rifles for hunting and recreation and went door to door collecting all of them, the criminal element would still find a way to have powerful illegal weapons. Crime would not decrease, just the weapon of choice would change.
We should also note that the majority of gun deaths are not due to crime. They are due to domestic disputes and accidents. That's how my friend died. He got into an argument with his son, who grabbed a gun from his father's gun cabinet and killed him. One of my other friends (who lived) was accidentally shot by a sibling.hbr said:The issue here is how do we control and prevent crime so that we no longer need weapons for self defense. I don't profess to have all the answers and maybe there aren't any, (at least until people learn to live together in peace and respect the rights and property of others).
hbr said:kirispupis,
You have very good points and so do I. That is why there is such a disagreement on this subject. There is no "one size fits all" solution to this problem. I have also stated that this argument, at least in this forum, has no winners. It is the same argument as "Which is better, Canon or Nikon","Chevy or Ford" and all the other arguments like it.
Actually, while the second amendment is used to prevent or restrict the power of the government, our basic laws are based on old English laws that state that a person has the right to defend himself.
And, yes, an awful lot of innocent people die from not respecting the lethal power of guns, it is fear that drives many people to purchase guns. If every citizen would obey the existing laws, gun purchases would fall dramatically and we probably would not be having this discussion. While in a society that is armed, it would appear that the gun is the common denominator, but I still maintain that crime and fear of crime is the real denominator. The gun is just the weapon of choice.
Place a hammer, some nails and some wood on your work table and see how long it will take them to jump up and turn themselves into a table. Take your biggest and baddest weapon, put it on the table and put some bullets beside it and see how long it takes for the gun to kill somebody.
Look at social media and see all the hatred that exists. Look at all the turmoil and strife in the world. It is not the gun, it is society.
Can we at least agree that this thread no longer serves any purpose on this site?
kirispupis said:Hillsilly said:As an Australian, I just want to point out that the video is of a comedian - the views don't reflect the majority. FWIW, we don't have a gun ban in Australia (despite what US mass media might have people believe). We do have a more stringent licencing regime than in most places and guns have to be registered. But a licence for a rim fire bolt action rifle is fairly easy to obtain. There is more stringent criteria to get a licence for a handgun or semi-automatic.
Just like in the US, guns are essential tools for our primary producers. They're very prevalent in rural areas and not going anywhere soon.
Even in the cities where gun ownership percentages are very low, there are at least 6 rifle ranges and gun clubs within a few kilometres of my home in Brisbane's eastern suburbs. Shooting is a very popular sport. Supposedly, it is currently the fastest growing sport in the country. Female gun club membership has doubled in the last five years.
Hillsilly, first I wanted to comment that I've spent some time in your country - in particular Brisbane - and I absolutely loved it. My cousin loved it so much that he stayed there, in Melbourne, and married an Australian.
The big difference in gun laws between the two countries is they aren't guaranteed in the Australian constitution. Because of that, Australians were able to have rational conversations about what guns should be allowed, and who should have them. After, at the time, the worst mass shooting in history, you were able to introduce laws to reduce gun ownership and since that time gun deaths have fallen.
We can't have that conversation here. While, yes, I despise guns, the truth is I do see their use as a tool. In the far country they may be necessary for wildlife and there's nothing wrong with target shooting. Yet how many Australians would condone their fellow citizens walking with automatic rifles on a busy city street? How many would want them in schools and sports stadiums? From the Australians I've talked to, very few are in favor of that.
I realize that I'm in the minority here for advocating getting rid of the 2nd Amendment, which even I realize is not possible in this political climate. However, what I really desire is the rational debate that Australians are allowed to have? With proper regulations we can severely reduce the 33,000 Americans who die from guns every year, while still allowing those who respect guns and care for them properly to own them.
I apologize that my polemic against guns comes on a forum dedicated to cameras, but this is an issue very close to my heart.
CanonFanBoy said:Blah blah blah
kirispupis said:I mentioned before I wouldn't mind for the moderators to lock this thread. It has nothing to do with censorship. We should just move on.
Brian, thanks for your comments. I've never served overseas, but I was in the Army for much of the 90's. I don't own any guns either (Hey...I've got young kids and I want to see them become old kids) but I take an active interest in international affairs. For that reason, my Youtube habit includes channels like IV8888, TFB etc (And I've recently stumbled upon Forgotten Weapons - its not political but very entertaining). I find it interesting to hear what people in the US say about gun control and the attempts to control them. (But more from an academic people vs the government perspective than a self-protection perspective.)hbr said:Hillsilly, none of my comments were directed at you. I simply wanted to explain some of the reasons Americans feel the way they do.
Evidence that Australians are happy with our current licencing system? I don't know how you'd prove that? In the last twenty years, there hasn't been any discussion of toughening laws. There has been the occassional murmuring about loosening laws - eg a lot of people want a higher capacity Adler shotgun to be re-classified to make it easier for everyone to own. Overall, it isn't something that gets discussed. The only time guns are mentioned are when talking about middle eastern, Somalian or bikie gangs. But they're predominantly using illegal weapons.Mikehit said:Really? Any evidence of that?
He is not suggesting banning guns, but denouncing the arguments used by the more vehement NRA supporters - I thought he made that quite clear
Hillsilly said:Evidence that Australians are happy with our current licencing system? I don't know how you'd prove that?
And I was asking how you knew that. That was allthe views don't reflect the majority.
What I heard him doing was denouncing the arguments used by pro-gun lobby that more guns would make everyone safer.He infers that the less guns you have, the less homicides you have, which has been proven incorrect (in fact, it is the opposite).
I heard him say that gun control would make it harder because you are cutting off one source - taking guns from legal owners.He then said that banning guns would stop criminals getting guns.