Tracking with SL2 and suggestions to shoot Karate games.

ritholtz

EOS 7D MK II
Mar 25, 2014
577
9
Hi,
I am going to shoot some pics during karate games for friend. I did took some pictures before in similar circumstances once with 70d and 80d. I used Tv mode with auto ISO using 70D. I think, I used M mode with auto ISO using 80D. I can stop down lens by 1/3 stop with M mode instead of wide open ( as in TV mode) which helps with IQ.

My best pics are with 70d and Canon 85mm. Unfortunately, I do not have 85mm anymore. I have SL2 now. My existing lens are Canon 50mm, Sigma 17-50mm and 105mm. I used Servo mode with Auto all focus points. with SL2, I might not be able to use similar AF modes. Any suggestions to shoot moving subjects with SL2 and how to cope with just 9 AF points. I can shoot in M mode using EC with auto ISO. That will help me to adjust exposure with white back ground. My both Sigma lens are calibrated with SL2. Hopefully, there wont be any focusing issues.
 

Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
Mar 25, 2011
15,556
773
I use live view with my SL2 whenever I can. Lots and lots of AF points and tracking is good, but not great. Lack of light can be a issue with a crop camera.
 

mb66energy

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 18, 2011
1,299
206
Germany
www.MichaelBockhorst.de
Maybe I am wrong because I do not know karate sports exactly: I think you have very fast situations and some motionless situations while both "fighters" are going through the next steps. Her two ideas:

ADD: Just seen that Mt. Spokane made a similar proposal:
Do you have tried DPAF with tracking for your purpose? In Macro photography it is a true gem when a plant is shaking in the wind. If DPAF with tracking is predictive (I think it is) it can do the math to extrapolate the motion of the subject in focus until the shutter is activated. And shaking plants in macro at f/5.6 are a true challenge because of the very thin DOF.

Manual pre-focus could be an option if you can extrapolate where the actors are when you want the shot. The screen of the SL2 is very good for manual focusing (for a screen without microprism or split image indicator) - if you have contrasty subjects and enough light. But I had 20 years of MF experience before I bought my first AF camera in 2005, so maybe a lot of neurons in my brain are trained good enough.
 

ritholtz

EOS 7D MK II
Mar 25, 2014
577
9
Mt Spokane Photography said:
I use live view with my SL2 whenever I can. Lots and lots of AF points and tracking is good, but not great. Lack of light can be a issue with a crop camera.
Thanks for the information. I never used servo tracking with live view. I will check the manual for settings. I might need to buy backup battery a well. There will be a good light for the eye. But fast shutter speeds is going to be a problem with crop. With fast shutter speed (1/800) and f/2, iso's are around 3200. I no longer have 85mm. I end up using Sigma 105mm f2.8 lens. With live view, light is going to be a problem.
 

ritholtz

EOS 7D MK II
Mar 25, 2014
577
9
mb66energy said:
Maybe I am wrong because I do not know karate sports exactly: I think you have very fast situations and some motionless situations while both "fighters" are going through the next steps. Her two ideas:

ADD: Just seen that Mt. Spokane made a similar proposal:
Do you have tried DPAF with tracking for your purpose? In Macro photography it is a true gem when a plant is shaking in the wind. If DPAF with tracking is predictive (I think it is) it can do the math to extrapolate the motion of the subject in focus until the shutter is activated. And shaking plants in macro at f/5.6 are a true challenge because of the very thin DOF.

Manual pre-focus could be an option if you can extrapolate where the actors are when you want the shot. The screen of the SL2 is very good for manual focusing (for a screen without microprism or split image indicator) - if you have contrasty subjects and enough light. But I had 20 years of MF experience before I bought my first AF camera in 2005, so maybe a lot of neurons in my brain are trained good enough.
I can buy one back up battery for SL2 and try Live view tracking. It is going to be very casual photography with kids participating. I just need to get some photos during action and award presentations.
If I am going to use VF, Is it good idea to just use center point and fallow players. With 105mm, I can fill in players inside the frame. With all points auto servo mode, not sure if SL2 can handle like 70d/80d who has lot of AF points. I have nifty fifly (older one without stm), which is also slow focusing.
 

michi

EOS RP
Jul 26, 2011
270
6
Which 50mm do you have? 1.8, 1.4? I would be tempted to say to use that, and if you are a little further away, just crop later. But the light advantage will give you shorter shutter speeds which may be crucial in fast moving action. (If you are really far away from the action, then the 50 won't work obviously.)

Unless they use spot lights, I would assume that lighting will be very even and you could probably get away with just using M mode. Take some test shots, and when you are happy with the exposure, leave it there. I would use the highest ISO you are willing to use with the SL2. Probably around 1600 or 3200. Then go from there with the lens wide open or one stop down if you want to bump the lens' performance.

Now you just have to worry about AF. I'm not that familiar with the SL2 and I see others made good recommendations, so I'll leave it at that.
 

Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
Mar 25, 2011
15,556
773
ritholtz said:
Mt Spokane Photography said:
I use live view with my SL2 whenever I can. Lots and lots of AF points and tracking is good, but not great. Lack of light can be a issue with a crop camera.
Thanks for the information. I never used servo tracking with live view. I will check the manual for settings. I might need to buy backup battery a well. There will be a good light for the eye. But fast shutter speeds is going to be a problem with crop. With fast shutter speed (1/800) and f/2, iso's are around 3200. I no longer have 85mm. I end up using Sigma 105mm f2.8 lens. With live view, light is going to be a problem.
Live view does not affect the light situation, its the lens and the camera body. It cost less to upgrade cameras than to get a expensive ultra fast lens. The SL2 can do ISO 3200 pretty well, but DR can be a issue, you need accurate exposure. With a FF body, ISO 3200 is a breeze.
 

ritholtz

EOS 7D MK II
Mar 25, 2014
577
9
michi said:
Which 50mm do you have? 1.8, 1.4? I would be tempted to say to use that, and if you are a little further away, just crop later. But the light advantage will give you shorter shutter speeds which may be crucial in fast moving action. (If you are really far away from the action, then the 50 won't work obviously.)

Unless they use spot lights, I would assume that lighting will be very even and you could probably get away with just using M mode. Take some test shots, and when you are happy with the exposure, leave it there. I would use the highest ISO you are willing to use with the SL2. Probably around 1600 or 3200. Then go from there with the lens wide open or one stop down if you want to bump the lens' performance.

Now you just have to worry about AF. I'm not that familiar with the SL2 and I see others made good recommendations, so I'll leave it at that.
I have old nifty fifty (f1.8 ) with plastic mount. I think, its AF is worse than Sigma. My options are using Sigma 17-50mm and 105mm. Sigma 17-50mm is pretty good wide open at 50mm. I can use them both wide open (50mm and 105mm). I will be very close to action. 50mm is enough with crop and I can use 17mm for taking presentation pictures. I got them calibrated from Sigma recently. I am also checking for used Canon 85mm 1.8.
 

ritholtz

EOS 7D MK II
Mar 25, 2014
577
9
Mt Spokane Photography said:
ritholtz said:
Mt Spokane Photography said:
I use live view with my SL2 whenever I can. Lots and lots of AF points and tracking is good, but not great. Lack of light can be a issue with a crop camera.
Thanks for the information. I never used servo tracking with live view. I will check the manual for settings. I might need to buy backup battery a well. There will be a good light for the eye. But fast shutter speeds is going to be a problem with crop. With fast shutter speed (1/800) and f/2, iso's are around 3200. I no longer have 85mm. I end up using Sigma 105mm f2.8 lens. With live view, light is going to be a problem.
Live view does not affect the light situation, its the lens and the camera body. It cost less to upgrade cameras than to get a expensive ultra fast lens. The SL2 can do ISO 3200 pretty well, but DR can be a issue, you need accurate exposure. With a FF body, ISO 3200 is a breeze.
I will be using veryr high iso (3200 or 6400) in order to use high SS. How does view finder shooting compare with live view. Not sure if i can select AF point other than center point. Or I can just use all 9 AF points with Servo tracking and see how it works. I need to look for used 6D to upgrade camera and need lens like 24-105mm and 85mm prime. I will planning to play around with SL2 little bit over weekend and see how it goes.
Thanks for the information.
 

slclick

PINHOLE
Dec 17, 2013
3,203
727
Not owning one, what does Sport method utilize? Is it Servo tracking and Program Mode in Jpeg?
 

Valvebounce

EOS 5D SR
Apr 3, 2013
4,269
215
52
Isle of Wight
Hi Ritholtz.
I don’t know the 6D but looking at the specs it only has 11 af points, and no dual pixel live view, it looks a lot like out of the frying pan and into the fire!
As for the rest of the camera I’m sure it is a vast improvement over the SL2.

Cheers, Graham.

ritholtz said:
I will be using veryr high iso (3200 or 6400) in order to use high SS. How does view finder shooting compare with live view. Not sure if i can select AF point other than center point. Or I can just use all 9 AF points with Servo tracking and see how it works. I need to look for used 6D to upgrade camera and need lens like 24-105mm and 85mm prime. I will planning to play around with SL2 little bit over weekend and see how it goes.
Thanks for the information.
 

ritholtz

EOS 7D MK II
Mar 25, 2014
577
9
Valvebounce said:
Hi Ritholtz.
I don’t know the 6D but looking at the specs it only has 11 af points, and no dual pixel live view, it looks a lot like out of the frying pan and into the fire!
As for the rest of the camera I’m sure it is a vast improvement over the SL2.

Cheers, Graham.

ritholtz said:
I will be using veryr high iso (3200 or 6400) in order to use high SS. How does view finder shooting compare with live view. Not sure if i can select AF point other than center point. Or I can just use all 9 AF points with Servo tracking and see how it works. I need to look for used 6D to upgrade camera and need lens like 24-105mm and 85mm prime. I will planning to play around with SL2 little bit over weekend and see how it goes.
Thanks for the information.
6d will help me with high ISO. Not sure about tracking improvement over 6d2. You are right about sl2 live view tracking capabilities. I checked DPR review. They also mentioned about using live view tracking using live+face tracking option instead of view finder tracking. But in my little experience with SL2, view finder shooting is instantaneous and quick over live view.
 

ritholtz

EOS 7D MK II
Mar 25, 2014
577
9
slclick said:
Not owning one, what does Sport method utilize? Is it Servo tracking and Program Mode in Jpeg?
I guess sport mode push up shutter speeds compared to normal auto mode. SL2 has auto iso in M mode. I can use M mode and have control over shutter, aperture and EC.
 

ritholtz

EOS 7D MK II
Mar 25, 2014
577
9
DPR suggested to use live view during servo tracking. Then what is the point of buying DSLR. Servo tracking suppose to be strengths of DSLR. If we are going to use live view with DSLR, I should be buying one of M.
 

Valvebounce

EOS 5D SR
Apr 3, 2013
4,269
215
52
Isle of Wight
Hi ritholtz.
To be fair you ask how to use the gear you have to the best effect, you get a suggestion and query it, would it have been more relevant to suggest you get a 7DII or 1DxII instead? No as that won’t help you track with an SL2 whereas using live view might!

Cheers, Graham.

ritholtz said:
DPR suggested to use live view during servo tracking. Then what is the point of buying DSLR. Servo tracking suppose to be strengths of DSLR. If we are going to use live view with DSLR, I should be buying one of M.
 

slclick

PINHOLE
Dec 17, 2013
3,203
727
I would think you are going to get good, not great results with an SL2 if you have a great technique. Akin to BIF with a 6D and a Sigma 150-600. The machine isn't geared towards those styles of shooting but you will get some keepers with a keen skillset. Once again, if they could do it with film....yadda yadda yadda
 
Feb 22, 2018
7
0
Assume to location will have low / bad light. If you have not been to this competition before, how close you are going to get is unknown. I think that will affect your lens choice. There will be a mat / ring and the higher the rank, the faster they will move, the farther they will move 5ft to 15ft. Watch out for mirrors, I have had the camera miss focus and hit on the reflection. There may be several group photos as well. Sparring will be fast, forms/ kata may fallow a pattern ( strike / pause / strike / pause )
Suggestions
Fast zoom lens (May need to rent) maybe the 50-100 f1.8 sigma or 24 -70 f2.8
Single focus point
AI servo
Back button focus.
Shoot in RAW
Shutter priority 1/160 to 1/200 (Little motion Blur)
 

Attachments

Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
Mar 25, 2011
15,556
773
ritholtz said:
Mt Spokane Photography said:
ritholtz said:
Mt Spokane Photography said:
I use live view with my SL2 whenever I can. Lots and lots of AF points and tracking is good, but not great. Lack of light can be a issue with a crop camera.
Thanks for the information. I never used servo tracking with live view. I will check the manual for settings. I might need to buy backup battery a well. There will be a good light for the eye. But fast shutter speeds is going to be a problem with crop. With fast shutter speed (1/800) and f/2, iso's are around 3200. I no longer have 85mm. I end up using Sigma 105mm f2.8 lens. With live view, light is going to be a problem.
Live view does not affect the light situation, its the lens and the camera body. It cost less to upgrade cameras than to get a expensive ultra fast lens. The SL2 can do ISO 3200 pretty well, but DR can be a issue, you need accurate exposure. With a FF body, ISO 3200 is a breeze.
I will be using veryr high iso (3200 or 6400) in order to use high SS. How does view finder shooting compare with live view. Not sure if i can select AF point other than center point. Or I can just use all 9 AF points with Servo tracking and see how it works. I need to look for used 6D to upgrade camera and need lens like 24-105mm and 85mm prime. I will planning to play around with SL2 little bit over weekend and see how it goes.
Thanks for the information.
With the sl2 in live view, just touch the place on the lcd where you want focus and it focuses very fast. Then, it will track as long as the subject is large enough. You can set the camera to focus and shoot the spot you touch, or just focus on that spot and begin tracking. Face recognition plus tracking can be used, the camera needs to be stable though.
 

jd7

EOS 7D MK II
Feb 3, 2013
748
109
Iago said:
Assume to location will have low / bad light. If you have not been to this competition before, how close you are going to get is unknown. I think that will affect your lens choice. There will be a mat / ring and the higher the rank, the faster they will move, the farther they will move 5ft to 15ft. Watch out for mirrors, I have had the camera miss focus and hit on the reflection. There may be several group photos as well. Sparring will be fast, forms/ kata may fallow a pattern ( strike / pause / strike / pause )
Suggestions
Fast zoom lens (May need to rent) maybe the 50-100 f1.8 sigma or 24 -70 f2.8
Single focus point
AI servo
Back button focus.
Shoot in RAW
Shutter priority 1/160 to 1/200 (Little motion Blur)
I have not used the SL2 but I have a 6D, and the AF systems seems to have some similarities, ie the peripheral AF points are line sensors, with only the centre point being cross-type (and the 6D gets an extra vertical line sensor with f/2.8 and wider aperture lenses).

If I was using my 6D, I would largely agree with what lago has said. I doubt you would have much luck with the peripheral AF points. However I would add:

make sure you pre-focus - you don't want the lens to have to change focus by much when you want to take a shot. In fact, consider taking some shots where you pre-focus on a point and wait for the action to come to that point (ie manual focus)

when you are using AF, start the AF system before you are ready to take the shot, ie give the AF system time to start tracking your subject (remembering that if you only have the centre AF point active, you will need to keep it over your subject) for a few moments before you take the shot

if you are using a lens with IS/OS, turn it off or else make sure it is active well before you are ready to the take the shot so the system has time to sort itself out (although a recent article has suggested that with Sigma's OS, you need to do that even if you have OS off)

don't rule out using your 50 f/1.8. Shooting it at f/2 will give you an extra stop over either of your Sigma lenses, and help you keep your ISO down a bit. That assumes 50mm will get you close enough for decent photos (but remember you can crop a bit later). It also assumes you won't be so close that 50mm at f/2 will give you such a shallow DOF that you don't have much chance to get action shots in focus, although even then I would try at least a few shots like that given it sounds like you will be shooting in pretty dim light and you need a fast shutter time.

I wonder whether 1/200th will be fast enough to stop the action, but I don't have experience with martial arts specifically so I'm happy to defer to lago on that.

I see other people have suggested using liveview. As I said I don't have any experience with the SL2 so I cannot comment on that. It may be it is the way to go. Otherwise, though, I'd go with the above approach.
 

ritholtz

EOS 7D MK II
Mar 25, 2014
577
9
Valvebounce said:
Hi ritholtz.
To be fair you ask how to use the gear you have to the best effect, you get a suggestion and query it, would it have been more relevant to suggest you get a 7DII or 1DxII instead? No as that won’t help you track with an SL2 whereas using live view might!

Cheers, Graham.

ritholtz said:
DPR suggested to use live view during servo tracking. Then what is the point of buying DSLR. Servo tracking suppose to be strengths of DSLR. If we are going to use live view with DSLR, I should be buying one of M.
Thanks Graham. I bought 80d and downgraded to SL2. Size was one of the reason. 80d felt too big for me.