Trying to start a Photography Business but surrounded by amateurs!

@Scott_McPhee
I answear to the original post / first message.

I don't want to heart you, but I think it's the wrong question.
Show your client and us that it's not you the amateur photographer pretending to be a super pro..
just saying you are very expensive is not enough...
 
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Hi Scott. I wasn't being personal, but I guess any negative comment on your work will be personal to you at this stage.
I am trying to be helpful guid you towards work that should help your photography.

You need to separate out the personal element to view your work objectively and spend time comparing it with other photographers work. And don't pick bad examples thinking you're better than the next local hack, pick some a notch or two above your work.
I do this all the time and think .. ok what I did was good but these are really great.. what makes them work so well, and how can I achieve that next time. Whether its lighting, the models, grading or just the idea. Be really objective.
We used to get really harsh crits at Uni, with people crying and running out because the lecturers were tearing chunks out of work that we'd put so much time and soul into. But you become fine with this and learn to listen to comments constructively.

As a website and web portfolio is the first impression for so many businesses to clients then it's really important to get that right. Would you eat in a bistro cafe that had a really scabby looking sign, dated interior ( but not in the retro kitsch way!) and the food on show was looking past its best and some not looking like it had been prepared or cooked properly? No. You might at a push grab a bacon roll there but you wouldn't take your family or friends out there and recommend it to other and dine again there.

I looked at your site partly because of other comments made but also, in order to understand why you are concerned about amatures 'stealing' your clients. - Everything needs reference points to be able to make an informed understanding.

There is a lot better work on your Flickr page :) . But far too many of over processed planes, I realise Flickr is just a general gallery but still! Your night shots of Glasgow riverside are good but still the general vibe I get is amature work.

Partly this is your subject matter, over use of wide angles, and some (lets be honest) horrific near HDR processing and too much saturation.
Being a professional you have to keep up with the styles, show people that you have a impeccable taste and eye for lighting, tone , colour and composition. And know your reference points of many types of photography past and present. A knowledge of HRD is good and when to use it is good but not on anything everything just to give a bland shot more impact. Same as I know when to use B&W and heavy grain treatment on a shot to help convey a mood, or to desaturate nearly completely and add a warm hue.
Please stop looking at other Flickr users and camera club type photography - all it's doing is fooling yourself into thinking other people are doing it so it's cool , it may have impressed you once but it's time to leave it behind and start to understand what is really nice contemporary photography.

Here's some examples of decent websites and photography in scotland.

Decent but not amazing- maybe these should be a starting reference point for you.
http://www.feelingroovyphotography.com
http://www.stevenrussell.co.uk/main.php#imagegalleries/Portfolio/Portraits/1

These are really nice with grading pushed a bit more stylish. This should be what you aim towards.
http://www.dawnmartinweddings.com/#/page/ad2e/weddings/
http://www.dukestudios.co.uk/wedding-photography-scotland/scottish-wedding-portfolio/city.html

And for total inspiration just google high -end wedding photography or portraiture, contemporary lifestyle photography etc with location keywords such as Scotland, London, LA , Paris , NY etc and immerse yourself into understanding what is really going down... and it's not HDR pictures of planes, Vauxhall insignias from behind or orange glamour ladies looking awkward! Speak to some model agencies and ask about helping them with new tests to work with potential models, don't ask or money tho. Firstly better get a good feel of what type or shots they are looking for before embarking on what you think is stylish as if you do it wrong then you may well burn a bridge there.

hope this helps.
 
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My observations
- Overall website template is OK
- Better to use sans serif fonts
- The cartoonish font on the banner/header looks amateurish
- The Commercial section seems a random collection of all types of photography
- Overall you need the website to represent the focus of your business ..... needs to be more focused that just photography - either people or commercial (maybe if the commercial section was more focused you could get away with having it)
- A better business name and logo would help
- The Makeover section was weak - the poses weren't great, orange skin and some underexposure
- The pets section needs work - pick your 2 best images of the dog, and go shoot some other pets to provide variety of animals
- There were some good images, but you need to be ruthless as the weaker images are bringing down the stronger ones
- As has been mentioned in other posts - watch the words on the pages - less is more ..... try to keep the words to an "About Us" page

All the best, learn, improve and your passion will show through!
 
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I noticed this girl's website on the interweb: http://www.larajade.co.uk/ What a sheister! APPARENTLY she only uses 1 light and a reflector most of the time, OR even "available" light. God knows how she gets booked by all those fashion agencies all over the world. Must be the cheap or non existent fees! She's only been on the go for about 5 years as well.!

Oh hang on, she must be a good photographer. And here was me thinking I need more equipment and a weird attitude to make me better..!

(all tongue in cheek, and dont take too seriously please) ;)
 
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Scott It seems you dont take the criticism too well but here goes anyway

I checked out your flicker and you have some fantastic shots....
when you dont do HDR...
seriously the halos and oversaturation just ruin them totally
it just screams instagram and doesnt look professional

i'm guessing this is what some people find "crap" myself included
but hey i went through a photomatix phase myself but now it just makes
me want to throw up. try use enfuse in lightroom instead and go for the subtle
HDR that doesnt look like "HDR"

the portraits. I think your posing and lighting is fine but again
as well as composition and again its the processing is killing
what could be a great shot.
I'd love to have a go at a couple of those raws

I think your ability to compose and shoot technically seems pretty solid
but its your processing kicking your arse...

Thats meant to be constructive so I hope you dont take offense as it was
not intended in that vein.
 
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HDR is a lot like a woman wearing makeup -- it should not be immediately obvious it is being used.

If you look at a woman and the first thought is "wow, she is wearing a lot of make up" She is doin it wrong.
If you look at a photograph and the first thought is "wow, that's some HDR" you is doin it wrong.

It should be difficult to tell if an photograph was or was not HDR, if it is done well. All the viewer should notice is "wow that's a pretty photograph/woman."

;D
 
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AcutancePhotography said:
HDR is a lot like a woman wearing makeup -- it should not be immediately obvious it is being used.

If you look at a woman and the first thought is "wow, she is wearing a lot of make up" She is doin it wrong.
If you look at a photograph and the first thought is "wow, that's some HDR" you is doin it wrong.

It should be difficult to tell if an photograph was or was not HDR, if it is done well. All the viewer should notice is "wow that's a pretty photograph/woman."

;D

In both cases you must add "unless it's being done for dramatic effect." Some women (and a few men) wear heavy makeup for dramatic effect, like wearing bright, colorful clothes. Likewise, some do HDR for the express purpose of a slightly surreal, dramatic effect. Both are personal choices. I'm not a huge fan of either in most cases, though I've seen a few examples that were quite well done.
 
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Orangutan said:
AcutancePhotography said:
HDR is a lot like a woman wearing makeup -- it should not be immediately obvious it is being used.

If you look at a woman and the first thought is "wow, she is wearing a lot of make up" She is doin it wrong.
If you look at a photograph and the first thought is "wow, that's some HDR" you is doin it wrong.

It should be difficult to tell if an photograph was or was not HDR, if it is done well. All the viewer should notice is "wow that's a pretty photograph/woman."

;D

In both cases you must add "unless it's being done for dramatic effect." Some women (and a few men) wear heavy makeup for dramatic effect, like wearing bright, colorful clothes. Likewise, some do HDR for the express purpose of a slightly surreal, dramatic effect. Both are personal choices. I'm not a huge fan of either in most cases, though I've seen a few examples that were quite well done.
HDR is often used to make a crap photo better and it ends up being a psychedelic crap photo. I'm not a huge fan of the "HDR look", but some photographers who take good photos AND use HDR have impressed me. RC Concepcion (Site) is one of those people. I don't love all his stuff, but he really seems to have a knack for taking nice HDR shots and a lot of his work is excellent.
 
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May 31, 2011
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I salvaged a friend's photo where the subject was to dark... I did the one image, the exposures hdr effect and the results were satisfactory.

Hdr is my shame... and that I liked it at one time... but... you live... you learn... and hopefully that leads to improvement.

mackguyver said:
Orangutan said:
AcutancePhotography said:
HDR is a lot like a woman wearing makeup -- it should not be immediately obvious it is being used.

If you look at a woman and the first thought is "wow, she is wearing a lot of make up" She is doin it wrong.
If you look at a photograph and the first thought is "wow, that's some HDR" you is doin it wrong.

It should be difficult to tell if an photograph was or was not HDR, if it is done well. All the viewer should notice is "wow that's a pretty photograph/woman."

;D

In both cases you must add "unless it's being done for dramatic effect." Some women (and a few men) wear heavy makeup for dramatic effect, like wearing bright, colorful clothes. Likewise, some do HDR for the express purpose of a slightly surreal, dramatic effect. Both are personal choices. I'm not a huge fan of either in most cases, though I've seen a few examples that were quite well done.
HDR is often used to make a crap photo better and it ends up being a psychedelic crap photo. I'm not a huge fan of the "HDR look", but some photographers who take good photos AND use HDR have impressed me. RC Concepcion (Site) is one of those people. I don't love all his stuff, but he really seems to have a knack for taking nice HDR shots and a lot of his work is excellent.
 
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Hi Scott,

Having looked a bit through your Flickr and homepage, I'll have to concur with others being critical. You'll need to improve the home page, others have already posted a lot of things that could be done.

Now, that being said, I'm definitely not a professional - but do design lenses as my day job so I'll have to keep myself informed how people are actually using the objectives. However, I do note that I could've done better some of the things, while some of the others not which is not something I like if I'm contacting a pro. So, instead of thinking being surrounded by amateurs, you'll need to ask what could you do to push yourself above the amateur level.

From the Flickr it looks like you're at your best at photographing mechanical stuff, airplanes and so on - though cars do need a bit more practise (I find them difficult to photograph). I personally liked the air show photos where planes are in the air against colorful sunsets, but planes on the ground not as much. Take a look on the posted Snappy vs. Crappy page (great find whoever did that!), where a photographer has found his niche in mining industry. His work clearly stands out from the rest.

So I'd advice to develop your strongest area in a public way, but keep the areas where you need practise out of the page. This pretty much mirrors what others have said.

Also, avoid mixing OK pictures with great pictures, like some of the airplanes taxing on overcast day with those colorful and dynamic airshow photos. Overcast weather makes it darn difficult to shoot in natural light, so until you get really (and I mean REALLY) good at it, try to keep them away from the portfolio. Or just start controlling the light at overcast days, but that's something you just can't do with airport photos. I find that unless I can find a good subject, a photo taken in overcast day is a photo that I could probably do better on some other day and look to do that then. As somebody else said, less is better in this case.

On the other hand, shooting airplanes on a clear day can be equally difficult if there isn't a distinct subject. This ejection photo is an example of a more direct sunlight photo but the pilot ejection itself makes it more interesting.

A bit of criticism towards the family photos, I find taking group shots of standing people tends to lead into a mediocre photo, especially if the camera is facing directly the people. This is an area where I think you need to improve if you'd like to advertise families on your page. Family to me is a much more intricate matter, and it's more about those private (not THAT kind of private) moments together.

You may see what I mean from Elena Shumilova's work, a Russian mother who mainly photographs her family. She's probably one of the most talented non-professionals (as far as I know, it's nothing short of amazing that she isn't a pro already) I've ever seen. There's a bit of animals there too. She mainly uses natural light and has been educated as a painter. Though, taking these sort of pictures at occasions like birthdays would be extremely difficult. That's when knowing the local weather and how it works in the pictures helps!

For model shots, Katerina Plotnikova is a source of inspiration. Don't worry, when it says "Adult content", it just means model's skin is visible, but she succeeds walking a very thin line on not being offensive of any way. Those beds in the trees are NOT photoshopped, but really there. Don't ask me what sort of persuasion skills she has to have to get the model to agree to go there, or dance with a bear! She occasionally does explain how the shots were taken.

I think some of your architectural shots would need to be improved, but this is an area I don't know much about. Ultrawide perspective does make buildings look funny, and while OK with friends, I think it's not something that professional can afford to do too often. Perhaps tilt/shift could help here?

Landscapes with ultra-wides is a different subject entirely. I don't find doing that very easy, and it often requires me to switch from ultra-wide to just wide to get rid of the perspective distortion. Also I need to know at what times and where the light becomes good, so on weather forecasts, I'm looking for sunny days today and rainy days tomorrow. That often means that the extra humidity may turn the evening sky red, and at that time I want to be somewhere photogenic. That may not be your area, though. Additionally, shooting landscapes tend to force me to go there very early or very late with the additional challenge that this city is very flat, leading to little depth in the images.

Just some commentary from me, tried to be constructive
 
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Yeah, I'm tending to agree with the previous critiques posted. Basically make your website look a bit more professional and remove some of your weaker images that are bringing the stronger images down.

I have looked at local photographers too and I really don't see how one of my studio shots perfectly exposed (metered) using a Lastolite Hilite box and four Elinchrom guns can be compared to someone who is using, basically, a sheet and a light.

Don't get too caught up in correct exposure. Correct exposure is an artistic choice defined by the photographers vision not by a tool like a light meter. Joel Grimes has some really good knowledge that he shares about this subject in his videos on youtube.

I also agree with the others when they say it's more about marketing and people skills than it is about talent. This is one of the reasons I don't think I could ever go professional. So I'm just booking gigs now to pay off my expensive hobby.
 
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Have to agree with all the others, if I was you I would consider:

1. Less kinds of work shown, don't try to be a jack of all trades, or set up another website for commercial work.
2. Specialise in kids portraits as they look the most professional to me
3. Don't include glamour photos on the website, set up another website for it. Would you send your kids to a photographer that shoots glamour work in your style?
4. The models, clothes and makeup (and the models expressions) on the glamour shots look like an out of date style. Have a look at work like Damien Lovegrove's website for a more modern look - he also shares a lot of his techniques.
5. Make your website name more personal - there is a reason most photographers use their name on their website.
6. Study tutorials on everything - creativelive has very good stuff and it's free if you can free up the time when the workshops are on.
7. It's hard to avoid taking criticism personally but people on this forum are taking their own time and effort to give their opinions so they are doing it to be helpful to your business not to make you feel bad. So take a hit on the ego, take the objective criticisms on board and you should have a much better website and more business very soon.
 
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wickidwombat said:
Mika said:
but do design lenses as my day job

really? Awesome!

going WAYYYY OT here but whats stopping anyone making a 35-85 f1.4 with IS
size be damned to me it should not be to complicated right? since its not going to deep into the wide end

Well, I have not tried to do that yet, but I think the biggest thing there would be to control the element positions accurately enough during zooming - F/1.4 primes already require quite accurate element positioning, and I suppose it would only get more complicated with movements in the barrels (that also have their tolerances).

The other factor would then be the cost and market for such objective.
 
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I think we might have scared him off.

Don't take the advice given here as an attack on you or your photography. Take it as an opportunity to learn and to grow your business and skills. You'll be setting yourself apart from your competition and you won't be worrying about them anymore. It's all about perception. You can perceive everything written to be an attack on you, get defensive/hurt and nothing will be done to help grow your business. Or you can take the advice given and implement some changes that will make you stand out.

In the end I suppose that's what people are saying. You need to elevate everything you do so that you aren't competing in the same market as the amateur. As you've found out most people just want the cheapest prices and don't have an eye for the art. Don't market to those people.

Hope this helps and doesn't hinder you.

Cheers,
Ben
 
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May 31, 2011
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True. With my first daughter I was in the el cheapo group. I brought in my coupon... give me the package, no more, no less. The funny thing is that I now have offer $10,000 in gear for a product I am reluctant to pay more than $30 for. Strange world.

benperrin said:
I think we might have scared him off.

Don't take the advice given here as an attack on you or your photography. Take it as an opportunity to learn and to grow your business and skills. You'll be setting yourself apart from your competition and you won't be worrying about them anymore. It's all about perception. You can perceive everything written to be an attack on you, get defensive/hurt and nothing will be done to help grow your business. Or you can take the advice given and implement some changes that will make you stand out.

In the end I suppose that's what people are saying. You need to elevate everything you do so that you aren't competing in the same market as the amateur. As you've found out most people just want the cheapest prices and don't have an eye for the art. Don't market to those people.

Hope this helps and doesn't hinder you.

Cheers,
Ben
 
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I guess this was a wrong move for him to post this thread. Amateur his referring to may read this thread and follow all the advise you guys gave.

Thanks to this thread I learned few fundamentals.. Thanks for the input guys. I'm 30, just like most, I don't know where I'm headed, you never know what business idea works, might as well give it a try.
 
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SoullessPolack said:
Hey Scott, after reading through the responses here, I have a website you may want to visit that may help you:

unappropriate link

You probably try to be funny, but I think this reply is quite inappropriate. Although I agree with most of the criticism being given here, we have to give kudos to Scott for his courage to provide a link to his Flickr after having received such strong feedback. He doesn’t walk away from his critics, which –in my view– is a brave thing. He also tries not to take it personally, but to learn from the feedback. With your reply, you are making it personal.

Furthermore, I would not see how he would be helped with addresses in the US, as he lives in the Scotland, which is in the UK (not sure if you are aware of that).

I would speak for you, if you would edit your comment.
 
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