What’s next from Canon?

mpb001

EOS T7i
Sep 10, 2016
67
52
The mirrorless APS-C professional market? What the heck is that? You could also say that Canon does not have much of a presence specifically in the mirrorless APS-C chartreuse-and-mauve-polka-dot-colored camera market.

But hey, you can segment the market however you like in your private reality.
You don’t consider Panasonic, S series. Sone Fuji mirrorless cameras professional series APSC mirrorless professional cameras? Many people do...
This is the mirrorless APSC professional market segment that Canon appears to be neglecting.
 

mpb001

EOS T7i
Sep 10, 2016
67
52
The mirrorless APS-C professional market? What the heck is that? You could also say that Canon does not have much of a presence specifically in the mirrorless APS-C chartreuse-and-mauve-polka-dot-colored camera market.

But hey, you can segment the market however you like in your private reality.
I stand corrected. I meant the Panasonic G series which is APSC, not the S series FF.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
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I stand corrected. I meant the Panasonic G series which is APSC, not the S series FF.
You still stand wrong. The Panasonic G series is m4/3, not APS-C. Fuji barely even represents a blip in the MILC market as a whole. Sony makes ‘pro-level’ FF MILCs, their APS-C MILCs are xxD-level enthusiast cameras. The Leica CL is probably the only ‘pro-level’ APS-C MILC out there, but total Leica camera sales aren’t enough for market research firms to even show their slice of the market share pie.

Are we done?
 

Bob Howland

EOS 7D MK II
Mar 25, 2012
443
46
The mirrorless APS-C professional market? What the heck is that?
Maybe you should ask all those photographers who (1) make money with their 7d2 and (2) are routinely focal length limited. 32 MP APS-C scales up to 82mp FF, but with that many pixels, getting 20 FPS might get expensive.

I didn't quote your needlessly insulting comments.
 
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unfocused

EOS 5D SR
Jul 20, 2010
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Springfield, IL
www.mgordoncommunications.com
I've been thinking about the 90D and a few things perplex me.

The marketing and announcement seem a bit underwhelming if this truly represents the merging of the XXD and 7D lines. I'm comparing it to other Canon announcements, like the 7DII, and it just seems like they are almost trying to fly under the radar.

While the specs are great for an upgrade to the 80D, it seems as though Canon deliberately left some room there for another model -- autofocus being the most obvious example. I get the feeling they are hedging their bet a bit here, leaving enough off so that if they see a market for a truly top of the line APS-C camera, they have room to offer that and still have sufficient product differentiation.

Pricing: Not that I'm complaining, but if they can offer these upgrades at the same price as the 80D at introduction, why not fill in the gaps a bit more fully and price it somewhere between the 7D and 80D? At this level, I'm not sure the buyers are so price sensitive that an extra say $200 would deter anyone if the specs matched the price.

No definitive statement from Canon. I get that a company is unlikely to announce they are killing a product, but if they truly wanted to migrate 7D users to the 90D, it would have been more effective to announce that the 90D is now the flagship APS-C body.

Now, if an APS-C R is coming sometime in the next year or so, this all might make sense. Or, if Canon simply decided to defer a final decision on the 7DIII for a year or so, this would also make sense.

Edit: I forgot to mention that I was also struck by Rudy Winston's 90D video which opens by framing the camera as a DSLR "for the photo enthusiast looking to step up to the next level." I may be parsing the words too much, but that doesn't sound to me like the language Canon would ordinarily use for their flagship APS-C body.
 
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tron

EOS 5D SR
Nov 8, 2011
4,059
359
Maybe you should ask all those photographers who (1) make money with their 7d2 and (2) are routinely focal length limited. 32 MP APS-C scales up to 82mp FF, but with that many pixels, getting 20 FPS might get expensive.

I didn't quote your needlessly insulting comments.
Last time I checked 7D2 is not mirrorless and a 7D3 at 32Mp or similar would give the same photographers as per your hypothesis more reach. Also everyone who is focal length limited would appreciate not having to use adaptors for their big white teles. By the way:
1. I have 7D2
2. I am focal length limited (even with my 500 4L II)
3. I do not understand what is wrong in the mind of forum members that rave about an APS-C R camera instead or at least in addition to the updates of existing ones . 90D proves it can be nicely done.
 
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slclick

PINHOLE
Dec 17, 2013
3,155
681
You still stand wrong. The Panasonic G series is m4/3, not APS-C. Fuji barely even represents a blip in the MILC market as a whole. Sony makes ‘pro-level’ FF MILCs, their APS-C MILCs are xxD-level enthusiast cameras. The Leica CL is probably the only ‘pro-level’ APS-C MILC out there, but total Leica camera sales aren’t enough for market research firms to even show their slice of the market share pie.

Are we done?
They sure are keeping you busy
 

slclick

PINHOLE
Dec 17, 2013
3,155
681
I've been thinking about the 90D and a few things perplex me.

The marketing and announcement seem a bit underwhelming if this truly represents the merging of the XXD and 7D lines. I'm comparing it to other Canon announcements, like the 7DII, and it just seems like they are almost trying to fly under the radar.

While the specs are great for an upgrade to the 80D, it seems as though Canon deliberately left some room there for another model -- autofocus being the most obvious example. I get the feeling they are hedging their bet a bit here, leaving enough off so that if they see a market for a truly top of the line APS-C camera, they have room to offer that and still have sufficient product differentiation.

Pricing: Not that I'm complaining, but if they can offer these upgrades at the same price as the 80D at introduction, why not fill in the gaps a bit more fully and price it somewhere between the 7D and 80D? At this level, I'm not sure the buyers are so price sensitive that an extra say $200 would deter anyone if the specs matched the price.

No definitive statement from Canon. I get that a company is unlikely to announce they are killing a product, but if they truly wanted to migrate 7D users to the 90D, it would have been more effective to announce that the 90D is now the flagship APS-C body.

Now, if an APS-C R is coming sometime in the next year or so, this all might make sense. Or, if Canon simply decided to defer a final decision on the 7DIII for a year or so, this would also make sense.
I still am not convinced that it is anyone outside of this forum and like online presences which have stated that it is a merging of lines. I would appreciate someone linking up a Canon official statement to the contrary and I will stop harping about this, thank you.
 

mpb001

EOS T7i
Sep 10, 2016
67
52
You still stand wrong. The Panasonic G series is m4/3, not APS-C. Fuji barely even represents a blip in the MILC market as a whole. Sony makes ‘pro-level’ FF MILCs, their APS-C MILCs are xxD-level enthusiast cameras. The Leica CL is probably the only ‘pro-level’ APS-C MILC out there, but total Leica camera sales aren’t enough for market research firms to even show their slice of the market share pie.

Are we done?
Not quite. Sony makes APSC mirrorless for amateur photographers. Fuji has professional grade. Now we’re done.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,609
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Maybe you should ask all those photographers who (1) make money with their 7d2 and (2) are routinely focal length limited. 32 MP APS-C scales up to 82mp FF, but with that many pixels, getting 20 FPS might get expensive.
Last I checked, the 7DII has a mirror – using that DSLR to define the ‘professional APS-C mirrorless market’ is asinine. Unless it’s your contention that most/all 7DII users would switch to mirrorless...but we both know you have no evidence for that.

Nice try, though. Pro tip for next time: try bringing some facts to the discussion.
 
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neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
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Not quite. Sony makes APSC mirrorless for amateur photographers. Fuji has professional grade. Now we’re done.
Still not done, I need to say that you’ve finally gotten to being right on two counts (but only after you radically moved your goalposts by qualifying your original claim about the ‘APS-C mirrorless market’ to add the term ‘professional’ and after dropping both Panasonic and Sony from your list).

Fuji makes pro-level APS-C mirrorless, and Canon has no apparent interest in capturing that minuscule bit of the market.

Hopefully you can acknowledge that your final claim looks essentially nothing like your original, completely fallacious argument.
 

Sharlin

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 26, 2015
1,057
556
Turku, Finland
I still am not convinced that it is anyone outside of this forum and like online presences which have stated that it is a merging of lines. I would appreciate someone linking up a Canon official statement to the contrary and I will stop harping about this, thank you.
Yes. It is pretty clear that Canon absolutely does not intend the 90D to be a merger in any meaningful way. In Canon’s terms, it is still an ”advanced amateurs” body; an x0D that received a very nice set of improvements compared to its predecessor, and which Canon markets as more action and wildlife oriented than previous x0Ds (because evidently the target audience is there) but still a jack-of-all-trades and the primary choice for people upgrading from Rebels to a more advanced DSLR. (It’s also pretty obvious that it’s a way for Canon to show off their new sensor tech.) The fact that the 90D is not a merger does not imply that the 7D line is not dead, though, at least in DSLR form (sorry for the triple negative!)
 

Bob Howland

EOS 7D MK II
Mar 25, 2012
443
46
Last I checked, the 7DII has a mirror – using that DSLR to define the ‘professional APS-C mirrorless market’ is asinine. Unless it’s your contention that most/all 7DII users would switch to mirrorless...but we both know you have no evidence for that.

Nice try, though. Pro tip for next time: try bringing some facts to the discussion.
As I see it, the ‘professional APS-C mirrorless market’ has little or nothing to do with the presence or absence of a mirror. It is solely a function of the size and pixel pitch of the sensor. The absence of the mirror becomes important, however, when trying to implement "30 FPS raw bursts", which is likely going to be difficult with a mirror.

Neuro, you're just a pretentious jerk.
 
Aug 30, 2019
2
7
To me, it’s very possible that Canon feels the need to delay the release of particular models in order to protect an already declining business.

Why else wouldn’t Canon release the M5 Mark ii at the same time as the M6?

Does anyone really want a camera without a built in viewfinder? If you can’t wait to upgrade your gear you’ll just go ahead and buy the M6 Mark ii now with a clunky detachable viewfinder that you obviously can’t simultaneously use with the hot shoe.

Does anyone really want to go without a viewfinder on anything more advanced than a cell phone or a point and shoot, or have a detachable one kicking around?

No, you want the M5 Mark ii because it’s just more elegant and functional to have it integrated. Canon is just hoping by removing some obvious features you’ll just end of buying another one later when your frustration and bank account builds up again.

It’s the same thing with the 90D and the removal of 24P. Cripple an easily added feature and then maybe, just maybe, you’ll buy another one down the road. If they actually released a pro mirrorless body with APS-C now, impatient 7D Mark ii users wouldn’t be tempted to upgrade to buy the 90D now, then another body later.

Cameras are getting so good now, that if Canon throws in all the features they reasonably could all at once, consumers just may stop upgrading. Once people have all the reasonable features in one package, and can print 300 dpi prints at poster size, many will never feel the need to upgrade again. Canon may just be trying to delay that inevitability.
 
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slclick

PINHOLE
Dec 17, 2013
3,155
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As I see it, the ‘professional APS-C mirrorless market’ has little or nothing to do with the presence or absence of a mirror. It is solely a function of the size and pixel pitch of the sensor. The absence of the mirror becomes important, however, when trying to implement "30 FPS raw bursts", which is likely going to be difficult with a mirror.

Neuro, you're just a pretentious jerk.
Because he has good reading comprehension and calls folks out on their statements with glaring holes? I'll take that over name callers any day of the week Sir.
 
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canonnews

EOS RP
Dec 27, 2017
337
285
Canada
www.canonnews.com
To me, it’s very possible that Canon feels the need to delay the release of particular models in order to protect an already declining business.
Oh good grief.

Why else wouldn’t Canon release the M5 Mark ii at the same time as the M6?
The M5 and M6 weren't released together either, but around 6 months apart.
They could be doing it for a lot of reasons.
a) they were already launching 2 cameras - I can't think of a time they launched three at the same time.
b) there's absolutely nothing happening show / hype wise in August or September this year. all the big events are scheduled for next spring - why announce your flagship mirrorless APS-C now?
c) they wanted to shove more into it.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,609
2,071
As I see it, the ‘professional APS-C mirrorless market’ has little or nothing to do with the presence or absence of a mirror. It is solely a function of the size and pixel pitch of the sensor. The absence of the mirror becomes important, however, when trying to implement "30 FPS raw bursts", which is likely going to be difficult with a mirror.
As you see it, the ‘professional APS-C mirrorless market’ has little or nothing to do with the presence or absence of a mirror. Seriously, that’s a textbook oxymoron.

A mirror means an OVF, no lag for tracking a subject, no constant drain on the battery to look through the VF. Perhaps you should ask ask all those photographers who make money with their 7d2 and if they think a mirrorless camera would meet their needs as well as their DSLR.

Neuro, you're just a pretentious jerk.
Do you think puerile name-calling like that adds value to the forum? All it really does is demonstrate your immaturity.