What Do You Want To See in the Canon EOS 5D Mark IV?

AvTvM

EOS 5D MK IV
Nov 4, 2011
3,165
0
unfocused said:
3kramd5 said:
...if canon developed a video-only cam and an equivalent stills-only cam, each with different electrical designs, the increased NRE and decreased volume would spike the cost over a model with both.
Absolutely. This is one of the silliest myths around. What do people think digital cameras are anyway? They are video cameras at their very core. The incremental cost, if any, is small and more than offset by the increased sales. The "I-want-a-stills-only-camera" crowd needs to just get over it. The ship has sailed.
A dslr / mirrorslapper is a stills camera. The very core of its design is sub-optimal for video. If you expect a 5d IV to be a mirrorless camera things would be somewhat different. But even thrn it males all srnse in the world to abpid unneeded and unwanted "convergence". sony - a much mord video-oriented corporation than Canon ever eas or will be - has fully understood this. And offers even their mirrorless cams on 2 stills-optimized versions A7 II and A7R II and only one video-optimized version A7S (II) .. At a higher price. Go figure!
 

arthurbikemad

EOS 7D MK II
Jul 19, 2015
451
18
UK
All I ask is it remains true to a DSLR, I don't want touch screen, flip out screens, or fancy video, I want fast AF, clear 100% viewfinder that looks through the glass I shot with as a DSLR should be, I don't want any digital viewfinder to spoil the feel, I want rapid fire, quick response and good DR. Most seem to want want you can already have in a 1DX, I'd have 1DX in a snap but I like the option of removing my grip from my 5D3 and going light and compact over the 1DX.

I just hope the 5D4 resembles what I have now with more DR and extra speed. Fingers crossed.
 

rfdesigner

EOS 6D MK II
Sep 12, 2014
876
0
New Forest, UK
sites.google.com
arthurbikemad said:
All I ask is it remains true to a DSLR, I don't want touch screen, flip out screens, or fancy video, I want fast AF, clear 100% viewfinder that looks through the glass I shot with as a DSLR should be, I don't want any digital viewfinder to spoil the feel, I want rapid fire, quick response and good DR. Most seem to want want you can already have in a 1DX, I'd have 1DX in a snap but I like the option of removing my grip from my 5D3 and going light and compact over the 1DX.

I just hope the 5D4 resembles what I have now with more DR and extra speed. Fingers crossed.
+1

If anyone's so in love with video, get a video camera. A DSLR is a stills camera that also does video. The 5D series is a DSLR camera. If anyone wants a mirroless+EVF... that isn't a DSLR.

Now if Canon produced a 5M and a 5D at the same time.. then we can all be happy. A backup EVF for when the mirror's up would be nice on the 5DIV though.
 
Sep 25, 2015
2
0
Canon's first priority should be to increase dynamic range. Everything else pales in comparison. DR is beneficial to every kind of photography/photographer, as well as to people who rely a lot on photoshop and editing for their craft. It is something that people really want and are willing to pay for, and the lack of it has caused many people to think less of Canon, and in many cases even switch to Nikon or Sony. I really don't know why they haven't already addressed this issue in the 5DS/R cameras--whether its a technical limitation of their sensors that they haven't been able to overcome, or if they're able to but have had some justification for not doing it. Either reason would be disconcerting, and this problem has existed for way too long.

A dynamic range improvement, alone, would be enough of a reason for me to buy this camera, but as long as I'm requesting features, I'd also like to see:

-High resolution (doesn't have to be as high as the 5DS/R, but something at least as high as the D810 would be nice)
-Faster Sync Speed (potentially a game changer for studio and portrait photographers but very unlikely)
-The best AF system they can currently include
-A similar shutter dampening system to what is in the 5DS/5DSR
-USB 3.0

Lastly, Canon needs to speed up their operations. They are too slow to release new things and get swept behind. I think they should work on improving the speed at which they can release new products.
 

scottkinfw

Wildlife photography is my passion
I feel rather silly but....

If engineers have to build for video then let them. All that extra capacity could be put to good use in still photography. We don't shoot video and stills at the same time.

On the other hand, I don't use video on my 5DIII. In thinking back on past (i.e., missed) opportunities, if there was better focusing, and overall easier use, I would have used it to capture some amazing video.

I shoot primarily stills, but who knows, maybe more vieo if it was easy. Otherwise it doesn't bother me to have it sitting there.

So why the fuss?

sek

vscd said:
"Take the video out" seems one of those things a few people want, so they claim it would be better - but with no evidence to back it up.
The price is higher because of much higher computationspeed and heatingpipes. The whole engineercrew have to consider everything towards video, which eats ressources on really important stuff (global shutter, dynamic range, better ovf).

I understand that some people want to have it all together in one cam, but I suppose an iphone would be the better solution. In don't see any hammer with a clamp on it, would be awesome to have both together. If I build something I can't carry both along with me.
 

scottkinfw

Wildlife photography is my passion
better IQ, improved overall focusing.

andrewflo said:
Realistic expectations:
  • Faster card readers
  • USB 3.0
  • Illuminated AF points
  • 1/2 stop or better improved high ISO performance
  • WiFi + GPS
  • 1080p60
  • If no 4K, at least sharper 1080p
  • Faster flash sync speed
  • Reduced rolling shutter
  • 1-2 stops improved DR

Not holding my breath, but would be great:
  • 4K video
  • 1080p120
  • Integrated flash RT controller
  • 1 stop or more improved high ISO
  • Touch screen
  • Articulating screen
  • Zebras/Focus peaking
  • Video clip limit exceeding 30 minutes
 

3kramd5

EOS 5D MK IV
Mar 2, 2012
3,083
404
AvTvM said:
unfocused said:
3kramd5 said:
...if canon developed a video-only cam and an equivalent stills-only cam, each with different electrical designs, the increased NRE and decreased volume would spike the cost over a model with both.
Absolutely. This is one of the silliest myths around. What do people think digital cameras are anyway? They are video cameras at their very core. The incremental cost, if any, is small and more than offset by the increased sales. The "I-want-a-stills-only-camera" crowd needs to just get over it. The ship has sailed.
A dslr / mirrorslapper is a stills camera. The very core of its design is sub-optimal for video.
Naw. The mirror isn't used in video mode. It being there for stills mode in no way impeaches video capability. It is not suboptimal, it's irrelevant to that function.

[quote author=AvTvM]
sony - a much mord video-oriented corporation than Canon ever eas or will be - has fully understood this. And offers even their mirrorless cams on 2 stills-optimized versions A7 II and A7R II and only one video-optimized version A7S (II) .. At a higher price. Go figure!
[/quote]

A7S II is low light optimized, and it is not the highest-priced model.
 

zim

EOR R
Oct 18, 2011
1,863
53
unfocused said:
3kramd5 said:
...if canon developed a video-only cam and an equivalent stills-only cam, each with different electrical designs, the increased NRE and decreased volume would spike the cost over a model with both.
Absolutely. This is one of the silliest myths around. What do people think digital cameras are anyway? They are video cameras at their very core. The incremental cost, if any, is small and more than offset by the increased sales. The "I-want-a-stills-only-camera" crowd needs to just get over it. The ship has sailed.
Totally get that and agree up to now but with 4k and above I wonder if that ship may have to come back to port
 

unfocused

EOS 1D MK II
Jul 20, 2010
5,003
1,361
66
Springfield, IL
www.mgordoncommunications.com
zim said:
Totally get that and agree up to now but with 4k and above I wonder if that ship may have to come back to port
Yeah I do think it's possible that the two will start to diverge. We may see DSLRs optimized for stills or video, but that's not the same as a stills or video only camera. Whether it will be two versions of the same body or separate models emphasizing one or the other, who knows? I think Canon will avoid that as long as possible, but as each becomes more sophisticated and targeted to specific users, we might see a 5D C that is focused on video in much the same way the 5D S is focused on higher resolution.
 

Sabaki

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 4, 2012
800
0
45
Cape Town, South Africa
RBNYC said:
Canon's first priority should be to increase dynamic range. Everything else pales in comparison. DR is beneficial to every kind of photography/photographer, as well as to people who rely a lot on photoshop and editing for their craft. It is something that people really want and are willing to pay for, and the lack of it has caused many people to think less of Canon, and in many cases even switch to Nikon or Sony. I really don't know why they haven't already addressed this issue in the 5DS/R cameras--whether its a technical limitation of their sensors that they haven't been able to overcome, or if they're able to but have had some justification for not doing it. Either reason would be disconcerting, and this problem has existed for way too long.

A dynamic range improvement, alone, would be enough of a reason for me to buy this camera, but as long as I'm requesting features, I'd also like to see:

-High resolution (doesn't have to be as high as the 5DS/R, but something at least as high as the D810 would be nice)
-Faster Sync Speed (potentially a game changer for studio and portrait photographers but very unlikely)
-The best AF system they can currently include
-A similar shutter dampening system to what is in the 5DS/5DSR
-USB 3.0

Lastly, Canon needs to speed up their operations. They are too slow to release new things and get swept behind. I think they should work on improving the speed at which they can release new products.
I agree with this 100%

I remember the massive enthusiasm Canonistas had before the release of the 7Dii. We thought Canon would come to the party and at least put us on equal footing with those amazing Sony sensors.
Likewise with the 5DR+S models. Superb cameras but one still feels shortchanged by the inferior DR in Canon bodies.

There are those on these boards with far more knowledge and understanding about DR and they could nail me for not understanding this or that about what really happens with Sony's DR or that their experiences show Canon's DR not vastly different to Sony but I disagree. Why? Well because my eyes tell me so.

jrista posted images taken with his 5D3 and a Sony body (can't remember which) but he was able to extract far more detail in the shadow areas. This is also what I've seen happen in post when watching a buddy edit images taken with a D810.

My guess, we will not get those 15 stops of DR we want. The saddest part of it is that generally we are beginning to make peace with the fact that Canon can't or won't bring better DR to their cameras.
 

privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
7,912
1,054
119
dilbert said:
People's opinions of what should be in the camera are mostly based on what they want an upgrade to have, not what will make Canon the most money. Given the expected longevity of a 5DIV (and note Canon's comments about "do not expect as quick product updates"), it pretty much cannot afford to not have 4K capability.
Of course it can, for the very reason you state, what will make Canon the most money. If the Canon bean counters think a 5D MkIV will sell well without 4K and that leaves the inevitable 5D MkV as the first 5D with native 4K they have two winners. They can throw 4K into a MkV whenever they want for no cost at all.

You guys all think of this too personally, think of it globally and you might start to make sense of some of the decisions.

The recent interview with Masaya Maeda, Canon’s Senior Managing Director and Chief Executive of Canon Inc’s Image Communication Products Operations, might not have told us much, but it did draw into perspective how much Canon value unit cost and reliability.

The main reason we have more low iso noise is cost, off sensor A/D converters cost less than on sensor A/D converters, all the wrenched forum DR hand wringing means nothing until the unit cost is addressed, Canon can make the DR anytime they want, but they won't do it until the unit cost and reliability is there for them to make money on. If reliable and practical 4K means an additional heatpipe then the 5D MkIV won't get it, the 5D MkV will.

As consumers we get sold on the most ridiculous labels, iPhone 4K, really? Is that truthfully the same thing as 1DC 4K? Or Raven 4K? With upsampling and downsampling, C Log, Log C, SLog, H26?, etc etc, video seems to be in a bigger IQ mess than stills images ever were.
 
Lot of people wants big video capabilities in the 5d4.. juste because...
everyone do 4k, iphone can 4k, sony can 4k... but why do you want that in a pro-still image device ? just take a good and normal videocamera... and keep the still-photographers apart and keep calm..
or. just take your brand new super iphone (taht way you will look very professional at a wedding, while taking video with it) or super sony.. ..

I repeat myself: canon shoud do "first" high-quality still image camera, then, without compromise, if video improvements are possible, ok do so. but not the opposite way
 

LetTheRightLensIn

EOS 5D SR
Apr 19, 2011
4,761
1
AvTvM said:
It is impossible to get all the video minority requests and demands (4k, all sorts of codecs, all sorts of audio stuff, connectors, etc. etc.) reasonably implemented in what is essentially a stills camera. Even more so, since we expect the 5D IV to again be a mirrorslapper ...
Why is it impossible?
What does having a mirror have to do with it at all?

Canon's 5D lineup should be structured exactly like Sony's A7 offering:
hi rez, expensive: 5Ds &R - A7R II
mid-rez, faster, less expensive: 5D IV - A7 II
video-centric, more expensive: 5DC - A7S II
You forget that the A7R II is pretty darn video centric too. It's actually 100% as much so as the A7S line other than it can only do the full reads without binning at Super35 size (what most movies are shot at anyway) instead of FF size (which is still doesn't do all that badly at anyway).

making menus even more bloated and causing all sorts of foul compromises regarding still imaging. And I do not want to pay for all that video stuff in my cameras, since I do not use it. Ever.
Huh? the video menu doesn't even show up unless you toggle the camera over into video mode.
And how is the A7R II sensor compromised? Because it is 42MP instead of 50MP? Is that really that big of a deal? The sensor is as good or better than the one in the 5Ds in every single other regard so....
 

LetTheRightLensIn

EOS 5D SR
Apr 19, 2011
4,761
1
RobPan said:
vscd said:
All I want is a stop to those constant and crazy video demands on stills cameras. I do not want these features in my cameras, making menus even more bloated and causing all sorts of foul compromises regarding still imaging. And I do not want to pay for all that video stuff in my cameras, since I do not use it. Ever.
I second that. Maybe I grew up with too much Unix but Windows. One Job - One Tool. A tool has to solve a specific problem, not to rescue the world. I would'n cry one second without any videofeatures on a still-camera.
I do a lot of traveling. One camera for both is very practical for me. I used to take two cameras with me: one for stills and a video camera. I am very happy with the 5D3 which does both. I do not have troubles with 'bloated menus', let alone 'foul compromises regarding still imaging'. Would not know what that could mean. Regards.
Indeed, it's a lot nicer to lug around a single camera than some video system on top on a hike or when doing touristy stuff or basically whenever. Plus, it also cost a lot more to have to run one video only and one stills only device, a lot more.

Maybe it's not quite the best form factor or this or that for video, but whatever, at all the bulk savings and thousands of dollars savings, I'll gladly deal.
 

LetTheRightLensIn

EOS 5D SR
Apr 19, 2011
4,761
1
AvTvM said:
e.g.
* cluttered menus with all sorts of unneccessary video "cruft"
stop flipping on the video mode if you don't want to see that crud? why are you in video mode anyway, if you never use video?

* typically a non re-programmable red "start video recording" button in an ergonomically very valuable position
Yeah, in the SAME spot as the turn on liveview mode, which is for stills, so again, what problem, what waste??

* sensors + imaging pipelines that are designed to record and pump high-volume data streams for up to 30 minutes = a very different optimization compared to what I want: deliver lowest possible noise and highest possible DR for stills capture
And yet the Sony A7R II, A7S, A7S II all have great video and better DR for stills than that from the video compromised 5Ds sensor....

And their in camera processing for in cam jpgs gets more detail than the mushy/waxy still pipeline in Canon DSLR. In fact, they don't even use DIGIC in their video stuff, since it seems to be too mushy.

* higher price than a pure stills camera -> see Sony A7 vs. A7S. I want a lower cost, stills-centric 5D model.
Have not seen any such increase on the Canon side.
I don't know much about the A7, but is it really the exact same, but minus video?
More sales can sometimes let them price something lower.
I'm not sure, but wasn't the stills only Nikon body a sales disaster that lost them money? I'm not sure.
 

LetTheRightLensIn

EOS 5D SR
Apr 19, 2011
4,761
1
vscd said:
"Take the video out" seems one of those things a few people want, so they claim it would be better - but with no evidence to back it up.
The price is higher because of much higher computationspeed and heatingpipes. The whole engineercrew have to consider everything towards video, which eats ressources on really important stuff (global shutter, dynamic range, better ovf).

I understand that some people want to have it all together in one cam, but I suppose an iphone would be the better solution. In don't see any hammer with a clamp on it, would be awesome to have both together. If I build something I can't carry both along with me.
Actually the video teams are helping the stills people to move to global shutter and again, where is the DR worse in the ones with video? Some of the stuff to make the reads fast and efficient and the stuff they do actually seems to sometimes hlep stills qualirty a little.
 

LetTheRightLensIn

EOS 5D SR
Apr 19, 2011
4,761
1
vscd said:
But don't more generalist cameras tend to sell more?
So you think the 1DX C sells more than the 1DX? I don't think so. Of course marketing is important and the folks on Canonforums are shouting for 4k, but I think there are *far* more important problems to solve than to include this new hype (in my view) in every new body on the market. They should invest the manpower into a great viewfinder as hybrid between OVF and EVF or to get up to Sony in DR. Speeding up the x-sync or a lighter Body would be welcome, too.
1DC also costs twice as much and not because it cost that much to make it, the only part difference is a big heat sink, all else is the same. They were just protecting their big dedicated video cams by up-pricing it and because back then few offered 4k so they could try to do a first adopter price. But many think they pushed the margin on it rather too much.
 

LetTheRightLensIn

EOS 5D SR
Apr 19, 2011
4,761
1
AvTvM said:
unfocused said:
3kramd5 said:
...if canon developed a video-only cam and an equivalent stills-only cam, each with different electrical designs, the increased NRE and decreased volume would spike the cost over a model with both.
Absolutely. This is one of the silliest myths around. What do people think digital cameras are anyway? They are video cameras at their very core. The incremental cost, if any, is small and more than offset by the increased sales. The "I-want-a-stills-only-camera" crowd needs to just get over it. The ship has sailed.
A dslr / mirrorslapper is a stills camera. The very core of its design is sub-optimal for video. If you expect a 5d IV to be a mirrorless camera things would be somewhat different. But even thrn it males all srnse in the world to abpid unneeded and unwanted "convergence". sony - a much mord video-oriented corporation than Canon ever eas or will be - has fully understood this. And offers even their mirrorless cams on 2 stills-optimized versions A7 II and A7R II and only one video-optimized version A7S (II) .. At a higher price. Go figure!
the mirror has zero effect, it's locked away for video and down for stills

there is one thing where a video focus maybe hurt stills a touch and that is the Canon only dual-pixel AF thing
although perhaos they would have done that anyway so they coudl eventually do some mirrorless stills cam that works well
 

Proscribo

EOS RP
Jan 21, 2015
219
87
People say that phones take 4k video so ILC cameras should too... am I really wrong if I think that phone-4K is actually less detailed than let's say 5DIII FHD? (it does FHD right?)

I have LG G3 that does 4K and even between phones own 4K and 1080p I have quite hard time telling which one is which... and I don't mean they're both sharp, quite the opposite.