What if Canon were no longer #1?

[Mt Spokane Photography]

While entertaining, and thats one of the forum purposes, it brings to mind the post last year by a member with supposedly inside information saying that all future Canon cameras would be mirrorless, and he had it from someone inside Canon who knew for sure. It received a similar response. A 7D MK III is coming, will it be mirrorless?

 

[Don Haines]

While entertaining, and thats one of the forum purposes, it brings to mind the post last year by a member with supposedly inside information saying that all future Canon cameras would be mirrorless, and he had it from someone inside Canon who knew for sure. It received a similar response. A 7D MK III is coming, will it be mirrorless?

One of the guys in my camera club had a mirrorless 60D.... He sent it back and they gave him another.....

 

[Sporgon]

While entertaining, and thats one of the forum purposes, it brings to mind the post last year by a member with supposedly inside information saying that all future Canon cameras would be mirrorless, and he had it from someone inside Canon who knew for sure. It received a similar response. A 7D MK III is coming, will it be mirrorless?

One of the guys in my camera club had a mirrorless 60D.... He sent it back and they gave him another.....

;D I had a 5 series mirrorless for a while. Didn't like it !

 

[SkynetTX]

I always liked the questions beginning with "What if ...". What if the 1200D were FullFrame? What if I stayed home the day I took a shot of a spider eating a wasp? What if I already had a telephoto lens when I was visiting Switzerland this summer? What if a meteor didn't hit the Earth about 65 million years ago? Who cares?
Currently Canon is the best in any way. Of course, they could have even better bodies and lenses as well as a better service for the Gallery, but as long as the current gear works and does the job well, no one cares if they are #1 in sales or not.

 

[Don Haines]

What if a meteor didn't hit the Earth about 65 million years ago?

Then we would have a bunch of T-rex's on the forum complaining about the size of the grip on Sony cameras..... a grip that was obviously designed for Godzilla!

 

[Quirkz]

Canon doesn't scratch itches. Canon keeps you from getting itchy in the first place with a broad range of products that simply work.

This is beautiful. Or something. Well at least it made me laugh.

 

[ahsanford]

Canon doesn't scratch itches. Canon keeps you from getting itchy in the first place with a broad range of products that simply work.

This is beautiful. Or something. Well at least it made me laugh.

I honestly liken Canon to Honda -- but in some alternate universe where all the other car manufacturers are trying to build (I don't know) Pontiacs. Everyone is selling the vroom, 'doesn't it feel exciting?', etc. yet there goes Canon, putt-putt-putting away and never breaking down on you.

Canon: No alarms and no surprises since forever.

- A

 

[stevelee]

I heard Fuji was #1 at the Best Buy store in Long Beach, CA during the month of October.

Canon is doomed!

 

[jayphotoworks]

I heard Fuji was #1 at the Best Buy store in Long Beach, CA during the month of October.

Canon is doomed!

Companies that are not in 1st place tend to be willing to take more risks. Consider GoPro. Currently, they are not in an enviable situation right now with competitors like SJ and Yi taking a chunk out of their action camera market. Their drone entry failed right out of the gate and they have now turned into alternative markets like VR in their attempt to stay relevant. I expect they might have to really redefine their next Hero camera or make inroads into other ventures to expect to stay around in the next few years.

I actually picked up GoPro's new VR camera and although I've had a number of lower end consumer VR cameras previously, some of these new options have improved significantly in terms of features and resolution (5K+). At the same time, consumer grade VR has become more accessible and I ended up also getting a Windows MR headset combo and shortly afterwards I was enjoying some of the content I shot without tinkering with settings. It just worked. Time will tell whether or not VR will make an impact this consumer cycle or fade away like the last 3D cycle did. I must have only watched 10 shows on my 70" 3D I got 6 years ago.

How is this relevant? Years ago, Canon's 5D2 changed my perspective in video production and steered me down a viable path for additional revenue generation. I haven't seen anything quite so groundbreaking from Canon since then because they really haven't taken any more risks in the market. Actually, they decided to regress and create a separate product line for video entirely and strip away these features via product differentiation from their still cameras. As we all know, video production took off and is a big deal today, but it could have easily gone the other way.

In the past, I blamed Sony for its checkered history in consumer electronics and stayed mostly clear of their products. Whether it was their induced format wars, to their lens mount fiasco or frequent planned obsolescence or abandonment, I was not inclined to tread into Sony's ecosystem at all. They almost take too many risks and at times can seem like loose cannon. But watching them slowly change from a company that would loose money in all of their divisions other than their entertainment and gaming divisions, to more recently their progress at being the #1 sensor manufacturer globally at more than 50% and their maturing camera products with less experimentation, I decided to try them out. It looks like some of the risks and subsequent mistakes they made years ago are starting to pay off today.

Personally, I see cameras as being creative tools that should maximize the owner's ability to focus on the storytelling or creative aspect as best as possible. Creativity can sometimes be inspired by a product's innovation, to fuel or spark an idea from a concept or origin. I understand Canon's products are reliable and simple. I started shooting right away with my C200 without a manual vs my Red which needed a menu simulator app on my smartphone so I could actually remember where to even find certain menu options while working in the field, not to mention making shading maps, and calibrating temps ahead of time. But Canon today is definitely not at the forefront in terms of innovation and maybe not again until they start falling behind.

 

[Duct_Taper]

Canon doesn't scratch itches. Canon keeps you from getting itchy in the first place with a broad range of products that simply work.

This is beautiful. Or something. Well at least it made me laugh.

I honestly liken Canon to Honda -- but in some alternate universe where all the other car manufacturers are trying to build (I don't know) Pontiacs. Everyone is selling the vroom, 'doesn't it feel exciting?', etc. yet there goes Canon, putt-putt-putting away and never breaking down on you.

Canon: No alarms and no surprises since forever.

- A

Maybe this is why I ended up in the Canon system - the approach felt familiar (I own two Hondas)!

 

[Isaacheus]

Couldn't give a rat's arse. Are you under the impression that Nikon and Fuji users are walking around with glum expressions, not even bothering to take any photos because they're only #2?

Why would you even think I thought that? Is that fact that someone told me something you don't agree with so unsettling.
All I asked was what people thought of the possibility that the market leader has been usurped.

Doesn't worry me who is number one as such (although always nice to have gear with a company that doesn't always look like it's about to finish up and seems to be quite low in recent releases, ie pentax)

What would be nice is if Canon took it as a bit of a shake up, if they really have dropped down the ladder, and bring out more competitive models to match/exceed the market

 

[dak723]

...
Personally, I see cameras as being creative tools that should maximize the owner's ability to focus on the storytelling or creative aspect as best as possible. Creativity can sometimes be inspired by a product's innovation, to fuel or spark an idea from a concept or origin.

I hope you can give us an example of how any Sony innovations help spark your creativity.

Somehow people on this forum continue to love innovation even though - in my opinion - there has been nothing particularly innovative in cameras since they added video. I would consider most innovations that people on this forum go all goo-goo over (such as focus peaking) as mostly gimmicks. They say there is a sucker born every minute, and I guess these types of internet forums prove that without a shadow of a doubt. If you like what Sony is offering, please get one. Or Nikon. The idea that Canon - just because they are Canon apparently, can just take the lead in innovation, quality, lenses, etc. is ridiculous. The chance that one company just out does all the others in every aspect is unrealistic.

If you like Sony, fine. I'm sure pretty much every camera out there today can do the job. But the fact that Sony screwed up the flange distance in their FF mirrorless - and then had to make almost all their lenses longer to compensate does not give me confidence that they are serious about quality. The A7 II I briefly owned underexposed by about 1 1/2 stops. Again, if they can't do the basics right, why should I be swayed by their innovation. Of course, it is easy to argue - that is why they stress their innovation - 'cause that's all they have going for them.

 

[Hflm]

...
Personally, I see cameras as being creative tools that should maximize the owner's ability to focus on the storytelling or creative aspect as best as possible. Creativity can sometimes be inspired by a product's innovation, to fuel or spark an idea from a concept or origin.

If you like Sony, fine. I'm sure pretty much every camera out there today can do the job. But the fact that Sony screwed up the flange distance in their FF mirrorless - and then had to make almost all their lenses longer to compensate does not give me confidence that they are serious about quality. The A7 II I briefly owned underexposed by about 1 1/2 stops. Again, if they can't do the basics right, why should I be swayed by their innovation. Of course, it is easy to argue - that is why they stress their innovation - 'cause that's all they have going for them.

This is a really unsubstantiated and subjective comment.

The flange distance is not flawed. This is not a "fact", like you seem to imply, but subjective.

"Dear Mike!
We have an answer for you now: because of the shorter flange focal distance of mirrorless camera systems compared to SLR systems (e.g. E-mount: 18mm, F-mount: 46.5mm), some lenses could be designed differently. This could result either in a slightly smaller (shorter) barrel, or in a more complex, higher performing lens compared to a comparable SLR lens of the same focal length and speed. Of course, it is not possible to overcome the laws of physics. The diameter of the entrance pupil is always fixed by the focal length and speed.
Completely new optical designs like our Loxia Distagon T* 2,8/21 benefit from the short flange focal distance of the E-mount, leading to a more compact lens compared to the SLR lens with the same data.
Best regards
ZEISS Camera Lenses Team"

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/zeiss-confirms-e-mount-shorter-flange-distance-brings-advantages-over-dslr-lenses/

I had the A7rii, too, am shooting weddings professionally using Sony and Canon. There was no 1.5 stop underexposure. Maybe you messed up metering modes?

 

[RGF]

there are many ways to do accounting and rankings. I am sure with enough data I can make Nikon #1

 

[dak723]

...
Personally, I see cameras as being creative tools that should maximize the owner's ability to focus on the storytelling or creative aspect as best as possible. Creativity can sometimes be inspired by a product's innovation, to fuel or spark an idea from a concept or origin.

If you like Sony, fine. I'm sure pretty much every camera out there today can do the job. But the fact that Sony screwed up the flange distance in their FF mirrorless - and then had to make almost all their lenses longer to compensate does not give me confidence that they are serious about quality. The A7 II I briefly owned underexposed by about 1 1/2 stops. Again, if they can't do the basics right, why should I be swayed by their innovation. Of course, it is easy to argue - that is why they stress their innovation - 'cause that's all they have going for them.

This is a really unsubstantiated and subjective comment.

The flange distance is not flawed. This is not a "fact", like you seem to imply, but subjective.

"Dear Mike!
We have an answer for you now: because of the shorter flange focal distance of mirrorless camera systems compared to SLR systems (e.g. E-mount: 18mm, F-mount: 46.5mm), some lenses could be designed differently. This could result either in a slightly smaller (shorter) barrel, or in a more complex, higher performing lens compared to a comparable SLR lens of the same focal length and speed. Of course, it is not possible to overcome the laws of physics. The diameter of the entrance pupil is always fixed by the focal length and speed.
Completely new optical designs like our Loxia Distagon T* 2,8/21 benefit from the short flange focal distance of the E-mount, leading to a more compact lens compared to the SLR lens with the same data.
Best regards
ZEISS Camera Lenses Team"

https://www.+++++++++++.com/zeiss-confirms-e-mount-shorter-flange-distance-brings-advantages-over-dslr-lenses/

I had the A7rii, too, am shooting weddings professionally using Sony and Canon. There was no 1.5 stop underexposure. Maybe you messed up metering modes?

My comments are based on my experience and are my opinions. While I do not have any proof, I have read a number of articles that stated that the Sony A7 cameras were originally designed to be APS-C (with appropriate flange distance) and then changed somewhere midstream to be FF (without increasing the flange distance). I am not a journalist, so I can not verify if this is true. Regardless of whether this is true or not, the short flange distance was problematic enough so that Sony began making lenses longer to compensate. Their kit lenses do not have this extra length and received very poor reviews based on their edge and corner performance. My personal experience matched the poor reviews. So, my opinion is that Sony screwed up the flange distance. Your comments from Zeiss are irrelevant. I did not ever say that having a shorter flange distance than a FF DSLR does not offer advantages. Nor does Zeiss say what the ideal distance is. I somehow doubt they would say 18mm or whatever Sony is using. Believe me, if Canon comes out with an 18mm flange distance for their FF mirrorless, I will offer up the same complaints.

The fact that the A7 II that I bought underexposed by 1.5 stops does not mean that all A7 II models underexposed the same amount or at all. I did not mess up the metering modes and regret that you felt the need to insult my abilities rather than accept my word. After I returned the A7 II, I tried the A7 and that camera only underexposed by about 1 stop. In all fairness, I have purchased Canon and Olympus cameras that varied a bit in their exposure in the same model, too. !.5 stops was probably the most I have experienced however.

Again, these are my opinions based on the experience of buying both an A7 And A7 II.

 

[JP]

Great... it would force them to do what #3 has been doing... / Make significant upgrades with technology they have had for YEARS... many many Years... rather than these tiny little incremental upgrades..

Years ago, I was known as "BeerBoy".. on DPreview.. and the reason why I was well, known, was because I personally knew several field testers of Canon Prototype equipment.. Back then they had a 16.7mp 1DsMkII, Canon already had a 55mp sensor that was being tested. About 10 years before the release of the 200-400, with the built-in telephoto extender, I was well aware of it...and even posted about it... only to be ridiculed by the community of people who know nothing more than what they heard from their local camera store, who knows nothing more than they do.. I was the one who broke the news that they were releasing a 5D body with an obvious feature..(the large review screen on the back, compared to the typical tiny screen on the 1.6 crops like the 20D)... I knew it was FF, and was a much slower camera body, but felt good in the hands, because I knew 3 people who had it in their hands... That being said, I didn't come out and say.. It will have a 2.5" screen and a FF sensor, and 3fps, and a 1/200ths top sync speed, because I didn't want to harm the relationship with the people who broke the NDS agreement they had signed with Canon... which would have caused them irreparable harm in their careers.. but I said what I could, and even with what little I did say, caused huge waves.......and I do believe that the groundwork for CanonRumors was founded by the things that I wrote regarding the upcoming mystery camera that I leaked tidbits of info about..

Canon has been holding back on many..... many technologies... By the time we see the patents, they have already begun a marketing strategy of when to release it... The 5D4...was a very marginal upgrade compared to what they could have done, according to my sources.. The 6D2 was even a greater bummer... (I pre-paid for one, and have sold it since, because I pretty much hated it)... was such a let-down... I'm hoping that Sony will kick their butts enough now, that Canon gets their act together, and releases what I know they can... what they could have......what the 5D4 should have been.... which I think is what the 5D7 will be..if they continue to have upwards of 60% professional market domination... The 1Dx2...is about 10 years behind what they could be releasing based on what I have heard... which amazingly, over the last 10 + years, has turned out to be pretty much spot-on! Pray that Sony... dominated... if you have an extensive Canon lens system, like I do... If not for that, I would have switched, too..

JP

 

[dak723]

Great... it would force them to do what #3 has been doing... / Make significant upgrades with technology they have had for YEARS... many many Years... rather than these tiny little incremental upgrades..

Years ago, I was known as "BeerBoy".. on DPreview.. and the reason why I was well, known, was because I personally knew several field testers of Canon Prototype equipment.. Back then they had a 16.7mp 1DsMkII, Canon already had a 55mp sensor that was being tested. About 10 years before the release of the 200-400, with the built-in telephoto extender, I was well aware of it...and even posted about it... only to be ridiculed by the community of people who know nothing more than what they heard from their local camera store, who knows nothing more than they do.. I was the one who broke the news that they were releasing a 5D body with an obvious feature..(the large review screen on the back, compared to the typical tiny screen on the 1.6 crops like the 20D)... I knew it was FF, and was a much slower camera body, but felt good in the hands, because I knew 3 people who had it in their hands... That being said, I didn't come out and say.. It will have a 2.5" screen and a FF sensor, and 3fps, and a 1/200ths top sync speed, because I didn't want to harm the relationship with the people who broke the NDS agreement they had signed with Canon... which would have caused them irreparable harm in their careers.. but I said what I could, and even with what little I did say, caused huge waves.......and I do believe that the groundwork for CanonRumors was founded by the things that I wrote regarding the upcoming mystery camera that I leaked tidbits of info about..

Canon has been holding back on many..... many technologies... By the time we see the patents, they have already begun a marketing strategy of when to release it... The 5D4...was a very marginal upgrade compared to what they could have done, according to my sources.. The 6D2 was even a greater bummer... (I pre-paid for one, and have sold it since, because I pretty much hated it)... was such a let-down... I'm hoping that Sony will kick their butts enough now, that Canon gets their act together, and releases what I know they can... what they could have......what the 5D4 should have been.... which I think is what the 5D7 will be..if they continue to have upwards of 60% professional market domination... The 1Dx2...is about 10 years behind what they could be releasing based on what I have heard... which amazingly, over the last 10 + years, has turned out to be pretty much spot-on! Pray that Sony... dominated... if you have an extensive Canon lens system, like I do... If not for that, I would have switched, too..

JP

Try not to dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back! ;D

Having patents or testing products is not indicator of what actually works and can be used successfully. Since all cameras are producing similar results today, the idea that someone had today's technology 10 years ago is rubbish. Yes, Sony offers more specs - but the basic technology for taking photos hasn't changed much and will not change much do to the limits of physics. All the upgrades have been incremental since the first DSLR. If you like a lot of bells and whistles - and some of the tech that works best in mirrorless (focus peaking, high fps) go Sony. Please.

 

[bokehmon22]

I don't really mind. I wish Canon was third so they can be more competitive in their offering.

I'm pretty happy with my 5D IV. I hope the 5D V/5D-Mirrorless will be a significant upgrade.

 

[neuroanatomist]

I wish Canon was third so they can be more competitive in their offering.

I'm pretty happy with my 5D IV.

So, Canon competes so poorly in the ILC market that you spent >$3K on their latest high-end model? Yeah, that makes sense...

 

[bokehmon22]

I wish Canon was third so they can be more competitive in their offering.

I'm pretty happy with my 5D IV.

So, Canon competes so poorly in the ILC market that you spent >$3K on their latest high-end model? Yeah, that makes sense...

I didn't said they compete poorly. Their 5D IV isn't the most competitive when it comes to features.

I shoot mostly wedding and engagement. I have to consider the entire ecosystem such as my existing lens, lighting, etc and not just camera body.

My 5D IV won't compete against any Sony/Nikon offering, but it get the job done. I wish Canon gave us more value on their camera body.

If I didn't shoot weddings, I would switch to Sony and using adapted lens right now.