Where is the 7d mark 3 heading?

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
232
40
#21
It's the incessant blathering from those blinkering their eyes from what other makes are doing that is really painful.

Canon sells exceptionally high quality and reliable cameras and lenses, which is much of its appeal. But, Canon tends to rely on inertia, brand loyalty, prior customer investment and lack of owner awareness of the improvements elsewhere to be slow to update outdated equipment. It's not that their existing kit doesn't give outstanding results in the right hands, it's that you can do more with improvements that other manufacturers have brought in. Here’s my take as a mad keen bird photographer shooting with a 5DIV, 5DSR, 400mm DO II, 100-400mm II, having worked my way through a 7DII, 7D and 5DIII.

First of all is AF. Canon’s AF is the fastest to lock on, but it is way behind the Nikon D500 and D850 when it comes to tracking against backgrounds, and even further behind the Sony A9 and dare I say it the RX10 IV. (Yes, mirrorless is now up there for AF). Nikon’s algorithms detect the movement of a subject and lock on to that and not the baackground. Sony’s are able to recognize objects and pick them out from the background. The keeper rate is also lower for canon because in A1 servo there is a stuttering around the best focus and so I, and I presume some others, take more shots than necessary to choose the best. A couple of weeks with the RX10 IV has shown me what the Sony A9 AF can do in a bridge camera with tracking and static shots.

For the 7DII, there is also IQ. The 5DSR with the same size pixels beats it clearly (for static shots, the 5DSR with Canon glass is still up there with the very best).

Secondly, there is glass. There is no doubt that Canon big whites are the gold standard. But, there is the pricing. The 100-400mm II is, in my opinion, the best mid-range telephoto with very good sharpness and outstanding AF. But, its price in the UK fluctuates between £2200 and £1600 according to Canon’s deals. The 400mm DO II was for many years £7000, but it is now on offer at £5,500. Canon is selling the antiquated 400/5.6L 300/4L, close to 20 years old, at premium prices. Meanwhile, Nikon has adopted the Canon DO technology and brought out the diminutive 300/4 PF and now the 500/5.6 PF at £3,600, which is smaller and lighter than the 400mm DO II.

There is no doubt that some professional and enthusiast bird photographers are changing to Nikon (and Sony). It can’t be dismissed as Forum chatter. Will I join them? Not for the time being as my 5DSR and lenses serve me well. But, I shall probably add Nikon and Sony gear if Canon delays much longer on the 7DIII and 5DSR II, and if I was starting from scratch for bird photography, the Nikon would look superior when reading all the reviews.
There's no '1' in [AI Servo AF]. It's a capital letter 'i', as in "Artificial Intelligence."
 

Don Haines

posting cat pictures on the internet since 1986
Jun 4, 2012
7,267
258
Canada
#23
The problem is not in faster/longer burst rate per se, It is in doing AI Servo AF tracking between each frame that makes mirrorless, particularly Canon's, so inappropriate for sports/action.
One would hope that on a higher end camera, that one would be given different burst modes, in particular ones with AF tracking, and higher ones without AF tracking, and the user gets to pick what is appropriate for the situation.....
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
232
40
#24
One would hope that on a higher end camera, that one would be given different burst modes, in particular ones with AF tracking, and higher ones without AF tracking, and the user gets to pick what is appropriate for the situation.....
That's true. In fact, the EOS 1D X Mark II allows 16 fps with no AF between frames, and 14 fps with AI Servo AF between each frame. The Nikon D5 is similar, though not quite as fast (14 fps without AF and 12 fps with AF-C?).

The point is that current mirror slappers can do up to 14 fps *and* still do Servo AF tracking between each frame. The 7D Mark II does 10 fps with AI Servo AF. The new EOS R ML camera from Canon can only do 3 fps with Servo AF between frames.

Current 1D X Mark II and 7D Mark II users aren't going to swap to a ML camera that doesn't give them Servo AF that is at least in the ballpark with what they already have with current DSLRs. There's a huge disparity between 14 fps (or even 10 fps) and 3 fps!

The Sony α9 can only do 20 fps when there is no AF between frames. It slows down to about 10 fps when using native Sony lenses if AF between frames is turned on (as I understand, it actually varies by the specific lens used). With third party lenses, such as Canon's Big Whites that are popular with sports and wildlife shooters, connected to the camera via Sony's own adapter it slows to 5 fps of tracking AF is required between frames.
 

AlanF

EOS 5DS R
Aug 16, 2012
4,064
286
#25
The Sony α9 can only do 20 fps when there is no AF between frames. It slows down to about 10 fps when using native Sony lenses if AF between frames is turned on (as I understand, it actually varies by the specific lens used). With third party lenses, such as Canon's Big Whites that are popular with sports and wildlife shooters, connected to the camera via Sony's own adapter it slows to 5 fps of tracking AF is required between frames.
Are you sure that the A9 can only do 20 fps without AF between frames? Sony states it does up to 20 fps with AF and AE depending on lens http://support.d-imaging.sony.co.jp...ilce9/continuousshooting/en/index.html?id=pdt or have I missed something?

I know for a fact that the RX10 IV does 24 fps for RAW with AF between each shot, see https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/sony-rx10-iv/sony-rx10-ivA6.HTM
 
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Likes: stilscream

Mikehit

EOS 5D Mark IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,074
277
#27
Likes: Michael Clark

Mikehit

EOS 5D Mark IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,074
277
#29
it wouldn't need to. You type in 'seal' or 'aeroplane' and its computational photography pulls all the bits from its database and puts the image together. it beats having a couple of neurons dedicated to thinking about photography.
 
Likes: Keith_Reeder
Jul 20, 2017
249
4
#30
That's true. In fact, the EOS 1D X Mark II allows 16 fps with no AF between frames, and 14 fps with AI Servo AF between each frame. The Nikon D5 is similar, though not quite as fast (14 fps without AF and 12 fps with AF-C?).

The point is that current mirror slappers can do up to 14 fps *and* still do Servo AF tracking between each frame. The 7D Mark II does 10 fps with AI Servo AF. The new EOS R ML camera from Canon can only do 3 fps with Servo AF between frames.
1DX Mark II and Nikon D5 not same as EOS R.
EOS R have 1 CPU.
1DX Mark II and Nikon D5 have 2 CPU: 1 CPU only do autofocus.
Lesson end.
 
Aug 11, 2016
113
8
#32
20fps and AF-C also for jpeg (fine) - see bottom of page, which will suit Ken Rockwell as he only shoots jpegs.
I have this camera and yes, there are certain caveats:

20fps is limited to (with some exceptions) GM lenses w/ F11 or faster and jpeg/compressed raw. Drops to 12fps in uncompressed raw regardless.

Some lenses are limited to 15fps. Since I haven't upgraded my 70-200/4 yet to the GM version, I'm limited to 15fps when shooting with that particular lens. I also mentioned this before in a different thread before it got into a "mud slinging" fest, but I felt that the Sony algorithm relies less on a predictive algorithm because it is fast enough to simply react to the scene instantaneously and snap AF as it goes.
 
Likes: Michael Clark

Durf

Picture Taker - Image Maker
#33
Yeah, right?

If only the 7D could manage to do things like this, eh?

Great shots Keith; everyone I know that owns the 7D or 7D2 absolutely loves them. (especially the 7D2).
I would of bought one in the spring of 2016 if it would of had a flip screen but I got the 80D instead. I've been quite satisfied with the 80D for what I do but will likely replace it in a couple or few years from now with a 7D3 (only if has a flip screen and if Canon actually releases one).
 

Keith_Reeder

No apologies for not suffering fools gladly...
Feb 8, 2014
676
103
58
Blyth, NE England
#34
Great shots Keith; everyone I know that owns the 7D or 7D2 absolutely loves them. (especially the 7D2).
Yeah, funny that, isn't it? I never had any issues in IQ or AF terms with the 7D, and I still rate my 7D Mk II as up among the best of what's currently available in the crop world, even against far newer cameras.

I suppose that's because I have low standards, or maybe I don't know any better...

:p

I would of bought one in the spring of 2016 if it would of had a flip screen but I got the 80D instead. I've been quite satisfied with the 80D for what I do but will likely replace it in a couple or few years from now with a 7D3 (only if has a flip screen and if Canon actually releases one).
I also had (still have, actually) a 70D: great little thing (http://kazemisu.me.uk/images/bridlington_sep_2014/C17__MG_7343.jpg, http://kazemisu.me.uk/images/bridlington_sep_2014/C17__MG_7269a.jpg, http://kazemisu.me.uk/images/bridlington_sep_2014/lr__MG_8351.jpg, http://kazemisu.me.uk/images/bridlington_sep_2014/lr__MG_7555.jpg, http://kazemisu.me.uk/images/bridlington_sep_2014/lr__MG_7569.jpg, http://kazemisu.me.uk/images/bridlington_sep_2014/C17_IMG_7202.jpg) but I admit that I didn't use the fold-out screen as much as I thought I would - but that's simply down to what I shoot.

So rather than wait for the 7D Mk III, I took delivery of a used-but-almost-new-condition 1Dx last week, just to see what the full frame fuss was about.

As you'd expect, it excels at high (by which I mean upper five digit) ISOs - the 7D Mk II is excellent below that; it feels better in the hand; and I think it's a bit more consistent in initial AF acquisition than the 7D Mk II, but the initial impression is that the 7D Mk II acquits itself remarkably well in comparison...
 

Durf

Picture Taker - Image Maker
#35
Yeah, funny that, isn't it? I never had any issues in IQ or AF terms with the 7D, and I still rate my 7D Mk II as up among the best of what's currently available in the crop world, even against far newer cameras.

I suppose that's because I have low standards, or maybe I don't know any better...

:p



I also had (still have, actually) a 70D: great little thing (http://kazemisu.me.uk/images/bridlington_sep_2014/C17__MG_7343.jpg, http://kazemisu.me.uk/images/bridlington_sep_2014/C17__MG_7269a.jpg, http://kazemisu.me.uk/images/bridlington_sep_2014/lr__MG_8351.jpg, http://kazemisu.me.uk/images/bridlington_sep_2014/lr__MG_7555.jpg, http://kazemisu.me.uk/images/bridlington_sep_2014/lr__MG_7569.jpg, http://kazemisu.me.uk/images/bridlington_sep_2014/C17_IMG_7202.jpg) but I admit that I didn't use the fold-out screen as much as I thought I would - but that's simply down to what I shoot.

So rather than wait for the 7D Mk III, I took delivery of a used-but-almost-new-condition 1Dx last week, just to see what the full frame fuss was about.

As you'd expect, it excels at high (by which I mean upper five digit) ISOs - the 7D Mk II is excellent below that; it feels better in the hand; and I think it's a bit more consistent in initial AF acquisition than the 7D Mk II, but the initial impression is that the 7D Mk II acquits itself remarkably well in comparison...
The 1Dx and 7D2 are quite the pair of tools to have!!! A bit like my 6D2 and 80D on steroids! LOL

I like what I have though and they serve and work for me well.....

I do use the flip screens almost all the time (for what I mostly shoot) I'll never own a camera again that doesn't have one.
I can see me owning a 7D3 in a few years if it has a flip screen....
 
#36
The Nikon D750 is a FF camera.

The Canon 7D Mark II is an APS-C camera.
The direct Nikon competitor to the Canon EOS 7D Mark II is the APS-C Nikon 500D.
I was referring to the lack luster performance from the Nikon mirrorless offerings. Even Canon fans are a little disappointed with the EOS R as for reference to hoping that Canon doesn't drastically nerf the 7dmk3.

As it is now it no longer matters since recently both Canon and Nikon have wasted too much of my time and resources. Probably won't see anything form Canon until march 2019. Time to hibernate the new tech need.
 
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moreorless

EOS Rebel T7i
Jun 18, 2011
775
2
#37
I can't see the 7d3 going mirrorless. It is a dedicated sports and action stills camera and at this point mirrorless don't cut it in that field. The xxd line is a little different however so I think that is where the questions lie.
Yeah the 7D line is always going to be appealing strongly to tele/action shooters who aren't going to care much about body size saving and are going to value the very highest level of AF tracking performance. I see it as one of the last lines likely to go mirrorless.
 

AlanF

EOS 5DS R
Aug 16, 2012
4,064
286
#38
Yeah the 7D line is always going to be appealing strongly to tele/action shooters who aren't going to care much about body size saving and are going to value the very highest level of AF tracking performance. I see it as one of the last lines likely to go mirrorless.
And they don’t worry overmuch about flip screens either as they are glued to the viewfinder. So, durf may not be buying a 7DIII.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
232
40
#39
1DX Mark II and Nikon D5 not same as EOS R.
EOS R have 1 CPU.
1DX Mark II and Nikon D5 have 2 CPU: 1 CPU only do autofocus.
Lesson end.
Did you bother reading the comment to which the comment you quoted was responding? There was nothing in it about the EOS R. It was about "higher end" cameras such as the D5 and 1D X Mark II.


One would hope that on a higher end camera, that one would be given different burst modes, in particular ones with AF tracking, and higher ones without AF tracking, and the user gets to pick what is appropriate for the situation.....
 

RGF

How you relate to the issue, is the issue.
Jul 13, 2012
2,744
19
#40
I see a lot of birders using 150-600mm lenses and 7d2/d500 or older bodies. I think quite a few of them arent too locked in brandwise, and are looking at what next to upgrade to from whatever they currently have. But once you get a 500mm or whatever, theres a much stronger loyalty to whatever brand you have.
True if you consider dSLR. If getting full capability from your new ML will require new lenses, then a re-evaluation is in order.

And of course, if Nikon offered a path to switch, Canon would be in a world of hurt. only question is whether or not Nikon's parent company is willing to heavily invest in the brand to drive market share.