Why has Canon omitted 24p 4K recording in their new cameras such as the EOS M6 Mark II, EOS 90D and EOS RP?

privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
8,159
1,505
119
Maybe the problem here lies in the fact the lines between photo and video products have been blurred and will continue to do so even more, hence the entire reason this debate is even happening.

The main criticism seems to me that Canon is slow to respond to this reality in the same way they were to full frame mirrorless. I don’t think anyone can argue with the fact that the people left in this shrinking market are moving towards mirrorless and they demand the best of both worlds in photo & video.

The photo only consumer market is shrinking drastically. That’s a fact. The YouTube generation and video market is increasing. Video content commercially consumed is massive and growing.

Unfortunate for camera makers, a phone will do just fine for a majority of internet photos and apps. Not so for video.

And lastly, everyone wants value and versatility to some extent. Much of the market that is spending $10k-20k on gear wants all of it to work seamlessly together. One brand, one set of lenses, photo and video together......

And I’m willing to bet amateurs, small studios, commercial and portrait, marketing companies, and especially the wedding industry are bursting at the seems with hybrid shooters.
I do argue that. I am a member of two active camera clubs and less than 10% of the members of either have any interest in using their cameras for video. In my experience the 90D type market are not that interested in video, neither are the 5D MkIV or R buyers, well not the ones I talk to at the two camera clubs who's membership, whilst not population typical, numbers in the hundreds and are very active camera buyers.

Yes stills orientated cameras can shoot video, but video orientated buyers are not, generally, that interested in stills specs, I do take umbrage at the insistence of video standards being constantly criticized in stills orientated cameras yet if I similarly demanded stills specs on video forums I'd be laughed out to the place.
 

Famateur

EOS 7D MK II
Oct 9, 2012
798
120
I'm astounded by the arrogant photographers in this thread trying to tell video makers what they need and don't need.

Here's an idea: instead of asking those of us arguing in favor of 23.98 and 24p video options to justify ourselves, why don't you go and find a statistic about how many Hollywood movies are shot at 30p and converted to 24p?
This is a crack-up. I must be one of those arrogant photographers because it's clear to me that Canon isn't aiming its M series at "video makers." No need to argue the merits of 24P in professional workflow and production. It's legit for those who need it. Debating it is a fruitless sidetrack. But. This is an M series camera. Does it really make sense to be telling Canon what they should or shouldn't put in an amateur stills camera to please professional "video makers?"
 

Otara

EOS RP
Jul 16, 2012
294
72
And I’m willing to bet amateurs, small studios, commercial and portrait, marketing companies, and especially the wedding industry are bursting at the seems with hybrid shooters.
Maybe. But other than some kinds of amateurs, they don't want those groups buying this camera is my bet.
 

ysyoo87

I'm New Here
Feb 13, 2019
10
0
Wait I don't get this posting, you can use 25p pal mode, and put it on 24p timeline, I'm sure no one will notice it. What is the problem here? Just the fact that you need to switch back to Pal mode everytime??
 

crazyrunner33

EOS RP
Nov 4, 2011
274
86
Here's a video with 24p and 60p footage shown side by side. Do you prefer 60p?

Unfortunately, it's not a good example. It's 24 fps camera footage being exported as 60 fps on one side with 24 fps on the other side. The YouTube video Is also playing back at 60 fps.

A true comparison would require different videos being played. One shot at 24 fps with a shutter speed of around 1/50th and one shot at 60 fps with a shutter speed of around 1/120th.

Some other people point out that we should film a lot of camera shake with 24 fps vs 60 and assume 24 fps will look jittery. 60 fps is a better choice for people who don't carry around neutral density. 24 fps looks buttery smooth when using neutral density and using a 180 degree shutter.

It would make sense if 1080 didn't have 24 fps since 1080 is likely what average people will use. It's baffling that it's the other way around.
 

HarryFilm

EOS 7D MK II
Jun 6, 2016
502
64
I'd love if someone who actually knows about electronics could speculate if it could actually be a hardware issue with available timings or something.

The other video issue, the removal of MOV and ALL-I encoding, might really be about transistor budget; perhaps the hardware just isn't there in DIGIC 8. Though it is a mystery to me why Canon even bothered to make a distinction between MOV and MP4; after all they're just container formats and the actual data is MPEG-4 anyway…
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Now THIS is something I have actual real-world low-level assembler and C++ software coding and hardware design expertise on!

The Canon Digic series of chips are ARM-based Cortex A4/M4 cores and I have SUCCESSFULLY coded a 24 fps to 60 fps interframe AND intraframe DCI 4K and UHDTV 4k wavelet-based codec that outright avoids the MPEG-LA group patents (Getting around those patents is WHY there is a Bell 429 parked in the hangar now!). The KEY programming issue is to use as many hardware-specific shortcuts you can to avoid as much actual real number math as possible and STICK to integer-based computation and lookup tables.

ALL of the Canon DSLR and Mirrorless models from the Canon M50 to M5/M6 mk1/2's to the 5D mk 2/3/4 and the 1Dx/1Dx2/1Dc and the D90/Rebel series DO HAVE the capability to do full 24 fps to 120 fps at up to 2048 by 1080 pixels RGBA 14 bits per RGB channel! I've tested it! It works! PERIOD!!! The ADC/DAC/DSP's on those are only 12-to-14-bits per channel so anything higher is pointless in terms of colour sampling. The M-series AND the M50 can do UHDTV 4k 3840 by 2160 pixels at up to 60 fps. The 5D mk2/3 can do UHDTV 4K at up to 30 fps so 24 fps is trivial!

The 5D mk4/1D-series can also do UHDTV 4k 3840 by 2160 pixels (16:9 aspect ratio) AND DCI 4K (4096 by 2160 pixels - Academy 1.89:1 aspect ratio) at between 30 fps to 60 fps depending upon camera model.

Hooking INTO the Canon camera BIOS to upload and use the codec is/was a beeee otchy programming problem and is NOT A TRIVIAL TASK! That said, interest was high from many parties and YOU (the general public!) will soon be able to experience the fruits of that extensive codec design labour!

--

50.3 Megapixel (8192 by 6144 pixels) 16-bits per channel 4:4:4 Stills RAW and Wavelet (up to 60 fps burst rate) ....AND.... full DCI 8K 8192 x 4320 pixel video at 60 fps! 2K at 480 fps or 960 fps at 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 up to 16-bits COMING to an upcoming medium format GLOBAL SHUTTER camera AND to two APC-C and 2/3rds inch GLOBAL SHUTTER Ruggedized IP-68 SMARTPHONES very soon now! Get ready world! These will change EVERYTHING !!!!!

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EduPortas

EOS T7i
Jul 1, 2015
98
43
Guys, it ain't that complicated:

Canon is forcing anyone that wants to record good 4K 24p with DPAF to go upstream.

That would include a few DSLRs/MILCs and the expensive C-Line videocameras.

There's some $$$ to be had with that sub target of consumers. That's about it.
 

Architect1776

Defining the poetics of space through Architecture
Aug 18, 2017
476
430
118
Williamsport, PA
The main reason for not doing 24p is it looks crappy compared to 30p.

"Shoot everything in 30FPS or 60FPS all of the time.
If you need that cinematic look of 24 frames (actually 24.9 or 25FPS in countries that use the PAL format for video), you do it in your video processing program. Video shot at 30 or 60FPS and then converted will look better than video shot in a 24FPS mode. "

The 24p rate was purely a choice to reduce film costs not for any sort of intrinsic quality of the film. 30p is better and produces superior video while reducing rolling shutter that is more problematic with 24p. It is just snobs and losers that demand 24p and mainly it is an excuse to bash Canon because canon is producing a superior product with 30p, better video and it embarrasses the 24p shooter.
 

HarryFilm

EOS 7D MK II
Jun 6, 2016
502
64
The Hobbit looked HORRIBLE in 48. HORRIBLE.

And I disagree with your interpretation of history. 24 was picked because it looked the best. PERIOD. This has been proven over and over. People keep coming back to 24 because it is indeed cinematic.
24 fps looks "Good" to the human visual system ONLY because of motion blur! If you shot at 24 fps at say 1/2000th of a second shutter speed you would likely remark just how crappy that moving imagery looks! Douglas Trumbull (special effects supervisor and camera system inventor for Blade Runner, 2001 A Space Odyssey, Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind, etc) created the 72 fps Showscan system which I had the pleasure of watching in FULL SIZE 120 feet wide glory multiple times in 1986 during Expo 86 in Vancouver, Canada! It was a GLORIOUS high frame rate motion picture system that truly DID look "Cinematic" because it too had the proper motion blur AND high contrast ratio endemic to Hollywood cinema. He wasn't a computer person but rather a FILMMAKER and knew what parts of an image to expose in such a way that it looks cinematic!

That SOAP OPERA effect is caused by not enough motion blur, too much smoothing of common camera movements, too much colour saturation and too much highlight blowouts or shadow crushing! The 60 fps can STILL be cinematic IF you shoot your subject matter correctly with proper lighting, keeping your highlights and shadow rolloffs SMOOTH and not jarring so you can STILL SEE the details in clouds and the weave of dark cloth. Do remember to use common camera movements in a more organic, non-motion compensated manner! AND remember to reduce that colour saturation!

THE BEST cinematic looking video I have yet seen was from a 1000 fps 1920x1080p Phantom Gold camera and when played back on an ACTUAL 1000 hz custom-built large-screen 1920 by 1080p cinema RGB laser projector display, we could see TRUE cinematic smoothness WITHOUT that "Soap Opera" effect because the camera operator/cinematographer KNEW HOW to shoot "Film" properly!

Again, HIGH FRAME RATE AT 60 fps to 1000 fps IS JUST FINE if you KNOW how to shoot your imagery properly!

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Stereodude

EOS 80D
Jul 8, 2019
149
130
Wait I don't get this posting, you can use 25p pal mode, and put it on 24p timeline, I'm sure no one will notice it. What is the problem here? Just the fact that you need to switch back to Pal mode everytime??
It doesn't matter how sure you are, it doesn't make you right. If you slow the p25 down to p24 people might not notice. If you decimate the p25 to p24 anyone with a keen eye will see it.

There's some $$$ to be had with that sub target of consumers. That's about it.
And that money will go to someone other than Canon.
 

Stereodude

EOS 80D
Jul 8, 2019
149
130
This is a crack-up. I must be one of those arrogant photographers because it's clear to me that Canon isn't aiming its M series at "video makers." No need to argue the merits of 24P in professional workflow and production. It's legit for those who need it. Debating it is a fruitless sidetrack. But. This is an M series camera. Does it really make sense to be telling Canon what they should or shouldn't put in an amateur stills camera to please professional "video makers?"
Then Canon should remove all the video features and stop pretending that they're pursuing the video market with these cameras. As it is, it's clear that they want to pursue the video market, just not very hard. As such, they're going to get criticized.
 

HarryFilm

EOS 7D MK II
Jun 6, 2016
502
64
We are talking about blowing out of proportion the decision of limiting the video capture to something other than 24p for some technical or business reason.
You can shot a scene in 25, 30 or 60p and import it to a 24p workflow. This is a common practice in many multi-cam setups. Almost all NLEs can automatically do the pull-down and you can print the end result in 24 FPS if you want.
Is it necessary to have the entire capture-edit-produce workflow to be 24 FPS?
Can't you still deliver your end product with whatever frame rate you want (24 FPS) even if it was captured in 30 FPS?
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HOW True! ....BUT.... with one caveat in that the frame-by-frame conversion MUST be motion compensated usually using a frame decimation (or frame interpolation) algorithm that uses edge detection to find MOVING objects and re-calculate in-between distances of objects within a scene to fit evenly within the newly set 24, 25, 30, 50, 60 or 120 fps frame rate. It's trivial to do that nowadays on common Intel/AMD CPU hardware with decent graphics cards.

I have found that Blackmagic Resolve timeline editor and their Adobe After-effects-like Fusion software products have one of the BETTER object-oriented frame interpolation algorithms out there! The frame rate conversion using motion compensation within Resolve and Fusion works VERY WELL giving me GREAT super-slow motion AND great 60 fps to 30, 50, 25, and 24 fps frame rate conversions. I have found when I convert imagery on a scene by scene basis (i.e. I re-cut video to convert and fit individual scenes to a specific NEW frame rate and scene length) I get a much better frame rate conversion result. Just remember to export/render as UNCOMPRESSED VIDEO 4:4:4 to keep the original quality and only do a final compressed video file export once you are DONE with all your colour correction, scene editing and frame rate conversions.

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neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,635
2,142
Films are shot natively in 24p in Hollywood because the frame rate is part of the look and the format of feature film. Amateur filmmakers want their films to look like Hollywood films. Films that are captured at the wrong frame rate will never look professional.

This argument is already so painfully self-evident that I don't think explaining it any further is going to help.
Oh, so ‘amateur filmmakers’ are the target market for the M6II / 90D / RP.

Keep on digging that hole your in, it can always get deeper!
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,635
2,142
Then Canon should remove all the video features and stop pretending that they're pursuing the video market with these cameras. As it is, it's clear that they want to pursue the video market, just not very hard. As such, they're going to get criticized.
Sure they’ll be criticized. Just as they were criticized for not having more low ISO DR, not having dual card slots in low-mid level cameras, etc. The current criticism will likely have a similar effect...none.

But feel free to cry Kodak and let slip the dogs of Nokia.
 
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Scenes

Filmmaker
Jun 12, 2014
63
43
UK
Wait I don't get this posting, you can use 25p pal mode, and put it on 24p timeline, I'm sure no one will notice it. What is the problem here? Just the fact that you need to switch back to Pal mode everytime??
It doesn’t work like that. It’s like me telling you to set your camera to shoot 8mega pixel JPEG’s and upscale them to 32 to save space.

First of all putting 25p on a 24p timeline there would be a rhythmic judder as it drops one frame a second. The cadence of movement would be all wrong. And second of all - if that were an option - you can’t just switch to pal if you’re not in a pal region or anything you shoot will have flickering lights. Pal is 25 because their power system is 50 hertz. America / NTSC is 30 because their power system is 60 hertz. One dividends equally into the other. If you Mis match those anything you film near a powered light is going to flicker and look awful.

I shoot 25p in the UK so it doesn’t effect me but I do sympathise with those that do. if you happen to shoot 24p it automatically takes this camera purchase out of the running. It’s a really odd decision.
 
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Photo Hack

Hi there
Apr 8, 2019
144
186
Anyone shop for a tv lately? Picked up a 50” UHD 4K Smart namebrand for under $275 at Walmart and it’s not even Black Friday.

We expect this now, the same tv was probably in the $750 range a few years ago. What do you think the consumers of the content we create expect? They want a pro cinematic production in HD or 4K and they want it on a budget.

What do you think that does to professionals creating that content? They go with lower price point gear that’s versatile and do anything they can to remain competitive.

Canon isn’t delivering on this front while Fuji, Sony, Pani are delivering. Look at Sony’s Share of Revenue over the past 5 years. This huge growth despite shotty ergonomics, crappy menus, terrible battery life, overheating, bugs, etc. etc. People want the specs, versatility, value, and run and gun style MILC afford them.

Clearly there’s a big market for MILC that gives video people what they want.

Canon isn’t doing themselves any favors by crippling entry level cameras. The future leaders of the industry have to buy their first camera at some point and they’re going to go for the best value and most features then slowly upgrade in the brand they buy into.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,635
2,142
Canon isn’t doing themselves any favors by crippling entry level cameras. The future leaders of the industry have to buy their first camera at some point and they’re going to go for the best value and most features then slowly upgrade in the brand they buy into.
How is that different today than for the past decade? Need I remind you what happened to ILC market share over the past decade?
 

Famateur

EOS 7D MK II
Oct 9, 2012
798
120
Then Canon should remove all the video features and stop pretending that they're pursuing the video market with these cameras. As it is, it's clear that they want to pursue the video market, just not very hard. As such, they're going to get criticized.
Is it not possible that Canon is pursuing the "amateur photographer who occasionally shoots home videos" market? :)
 
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