Why has Canon omitted 24p 4K recording in their new cameras such as the EOS M6 Mark II, EOS 90D and EOS RP?

[slclick]

Great, now I'm in league with the devil.

 

[Scenes]

You just cannot beat the price vs feature set when you consider the 6K BMPCC !!!!

It looks like a great camera, sure. Except I can’t use it to make money. I shoot fashion shows with people walking back and forth toward the camera. I need reliable auto focus. It also comes in handy for documentary style footage. And if that wasn’t an issue, shoring in 6K at those bitrates would eat into profits I make in hard drive space alone. Not to mention to the extra turnaround time in editing required to grade raw footage.

Not every camera is ideal for every situation.

 

[Scenes]

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ALL DOT COM sites are by definition managed by the USA (i.e. part of the Verisign and ICANN .COM web domain management contract) and thus DO NOT FALL under the rules of the GPDR if their servers are in the USA or Canada. the GPDR HAS NO LEGAL FORCE in these countries! and NO U.S. or Canadian judge will enforce ANY GDPR privacy or extradition order against a U.S./Canada based website and/or its principals over GDPR rules!

Sooooo, the website operator ABSOLUTELY CAN reveal whoever or whatever they see fit since the U.S. Constitution's FIRST AMENDMENT rules of Free Speech and Freedom of the Press apply here and GDPR DOES NOT APPLY in the USA or Canada!

And since I know MORE than a few U.S. and Canadian lawyers (and even a few Judges!) with SPECIFIC EXPERTISE in this, I think I will defer to THEIR actual and very real legal-world knowledge and precedent-setting court rulings!

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Not sure what that has to do with 4K on a 90D? I’m pleased you know so many lawyers. I wonder why so many US sites remain inaccessible to Europe or serve different versions of sites Here because of GPDR rules.? I”m genuinely curious?

In any case, it doesn’t change the fact it’s in bad taste to reveal someone’s private information to make fun of their actual name.

 

[stevelee]

Steven Spielberg bribed Canon to cut off competition.

 

[HarryFilm]

The 90D and M62 are fine still cameras with good amateur video capabilities. I'm sure they will sell well. Or as well as they can in this shrinking market. But the lack of 24p and the upscaled video* are going to send a number of buyers to other cameras. Some of those people will go ahead and buy a 5D4 or an R. Others will simply buy from another brand. Canon marketing apparently thinks the risk is worth it, that up sells to Canon equipment will out weigh losses to the competition. But I have my doubts.

The commenters here who are defending Canon's decision keep saying...directly or through sarcasm...that the target market does not need 24p. But that's an overly simplistic view of potential buyers. As but one example: if the 90D had oversampled 4k and 24p it would be my cinema/backup camera, compatible with all of my EF glass and offering extended reach and frame rate in wildlife and sports scenarios. I'm not the expected 'target market' yet I could still be a potential sale. But with hobbled video it becomes a no sale. I've been waiting a while for Canon to offer a hybrid to fill that empty spot in my bag. It looks like that spot will go to an X-T3.

There are many other examples. The vlogger who wants excellent 4k 24p. The film student on a budget who wants the same. The serious amateur or pro who wants to mix cameras to the same timeline. The guy buying a B camera to his "real" cinema camera. That's real money Canon is throwing away.

Now I'm not "abandoning Canon" nor do I think they are DOOMED. I've said repeatedly that I think 5Ds IQ is phenomenal, and I have nothing but glowing words to say about my L lenses. Add to that great AF, great IS, gorgeous color science, and best in field ergonomics. (And weather sealing. Let's not forget weather sealing cough Sony.) My stills kit overhaul was intended to satisfy me for years, and I could happily shoot that equipment for the next decade.

But some people will look at their budgets and their existing gear and decide "...if brand X can do everything I want and Canon won't even give me simple features, why not jump?" Those can be quite expensive losses to Canon. We keep talking about their marketshare but their profitability suggests they're shoring up marketshare through entry level sales. They also need prosumer and pro users who keep buying upper tier bodies and lenses over the long haul. That includes social media influencers: vloggers that some deride as 'the next Spielberg' or just some 'YouTube talking head.' Make fun of them all you want, but they drive sales. The last thing you want is some YouTuber making fun of your 90D with an animated 'cripple hammer' swinging around the screen. No, you want guys like JP and Tony to be screaming "OMG I can't believe Canon did it YOU WANT THIS CAMERA!"

As for up selling to the R: that strategy might have worked on me if the R was FF oversampled 4k. Or at least a relatively mild 6k crop out of the sensor to 4k. But with its severe crop it feels like yet another compromise, like Canon is trying to up sell me again. Trouble is, for stills/cinema hybrid they don't have anything left to up sell me to. But the competition does. I would have really, really loved to maintain a Canon only kit for the lens compatibility and ergonomics. But Canon seems bent on preventing me from doing that.

* The rumor here is likely correct. For full width readout Canon is either oversampling, binning, or line skipping. If they were oversampling then full width 4k would be better than crop. Hell, they might not even include the crop mode. Someone probably grabbed a frame from a sample video and figured out the actual recording resolution. This is worrying because it suggests that even with a new sensor, Canon still can't do oversampled 4k. Hybrid stills/video is only going to become more important as time moves on. They need to solve this.

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"....Canon still can't do oversampled 4k. Hybrid stills/video is only going to become more important as time moves on. They need to solve this..."

The M5-series and 5Dmk4/1Dx-series hardware is FULLY Capable of oversampled 4K ....BUT.... since Canon don't have DECADES of VIDEO CODEC design and coding expertise, they're doing waaaaaay too much real-number and general math computation on their DIGIC cpu cores and NOT using all the built-in ARM Cortex A4/M4 integer math and lookup tables capability that would reduce computation time and the high heat production caused by excessive math computation on a processor designed more for low-end semi-smart phones than what SHOULD be in any video camera (i.e. you SHOULD have at least a Qualcomm Snapdragon 835/845/855 or AMD Ryzen 2300u/2700u cpu!)

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On ANY camera that is over $1000 U.S., Canon SHOULD BE spending from $50 to $160 for the older Snapdragon 835/845/855 or AMD Ryzen 2300u/2700u cpus which would put ALL the Canon DIGIC cpus to shame AND those better CPUs would have faaaaar superior video frame processing power for 4K/6K and even 8K 60 fps video or stills recording at up-to-16-bits 4:2:2 AND 4:4:4 colour sampling!
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Canon just needs to bite on the sour apple and BUY Snapdragon or AMD cpus for their cameras! Put in a BIGGER battery to power those faster cpus if you need to! Add a big heatsink or even active liquid cooling to controlheat production. People WANT 4k/6k/8k 60 fps video AND Stills Burst rates --- Sooooooo....GIVE IT TO THEM by putting in a BETTER cpu !!!!!!!!

.

 

[HarryFilm]

Not sure what that has to do with 4K on a 90D? I’m pleased you know so many lawyers. I wonder why so many US sites remain inaccessible to Europe or serve different versions of sites Here because of GPDR rules.? I”m genuinely curious?

In any case, it doesn’t change the fact it’s in bad taste to reveal someone’s private information to make fun of their actual name.

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MANY U.S./Canadian websites defer to GDPR rules for simple monetary and general political reasons ...BUT.... they legally DO NOT HAVE TO !!!!! Again, NO U.S. or Canadian Judge will sign an extradition order or apply ANY legal sanction to a U.S./Canada-based website with a .COM name and servers based in these two countries because of a GDPR rule! And, if you want access to U.S./canada websites while in Europe, just use a VPN with an IP spoofer and you are all set for surfing those sites without restriction!

I should note HOWEVER, if your base of operations or servers IS in a European country and/or you SPECIFICALLY, by ongoing custom or by actual corporate directive, target European website users, THEN GDPR DOES APPLY on an absolute legal basis !!!

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P.S. 2700+ hours of combined Canadian and U.S. legal deposition observation experience here.... Ya tend to learn A LOT about multi-country legal systems and the results of actual precedent-setting court rulings in such an environment!

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[analoggrotto]

Great, now I'm in league with the devil.

He gets a bad rep.

 

[HarryFilm]

Crap! Neuro, he’s on to you! Better be careful or he will find out that you are also Mt Spokane, unfocused, click, myself, and Harry Film!

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"..... and Harry Film! ...."

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ,,,,,,,,,, !!!!!!

HarryFilm (me!) is a logical entity entirely unto himself with NOOOOOOOOOOO affiliation to Neuro, Mt Spokane, unfocused, click or yourself....

I do however have another attribute which would/should UTTERLY SHOCK YOU !!!!!

---- I ----- AM ------ CANADIAN ------ !!!!!!

...

 

[HarryFilm]

It looks like a great camera, sure. Except I can’t use it to make money. I shoot fashion shows with people walking back and forth toward the camera. I need reliable auto focus. It also comes in handy for documentary style footage. And if that wasn’t an issue, shoring in 6K at those bitrates would eat into profits I make in hard drive space alone. Not to mention to the extra turnaround time in editing required to grade raw footage.

Not every camera is ideal for every situation.

Then you need the Nikon D850, Nikon D5, Canon 5Dmk4, Canon 1Dxmk2 or Sony A9 for Fashion Shows .... OR .... as a reasonably priced HIGH PERFORMANCE/RUGGED alternative, I would also suggest the Olympus OM-D E-M1X which has Canon 1Dx2 weather sealing and ruggedness for half the price! I know it has a smaller sensor (i.e. an M4/3 imager) and wider area of sharpness (i.e. less Bokeh), but for fashion shows that might actually be an advantage since you can zoom into anywhere you want for maximum sharpness corner to corner!

Buy OM-D E-M1X From OM SYSTEM Canada

BODY ONLY Introducing the OM-D E-M1X camera designed with professional photographer’s in mind to meet the performance and feature needs of the most demanding photographers. Featuring two TruePic VIII image processors, this model features vastly improved AF with new subject detection auto-focus...

www.getolympus.com

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[stevelee]

Look at Motorola (yeah they used to make Phones) just passed 180USD a share and they have not made a phone in years.

They were known for making radios, originally car radios, hence the name, and later TVs. I used a RAZR phone for years.

 

[stevelee]

Explanations are irrelevant. You might as well explain why the M6II and 90D are crippled by the lack of a FF sensor. These cameras don’t have p24. If you require p24, buy a different camera.

The M6II is crippled by not having a mirror or OVF. The 90D is crippled by lack of an EVF.

 

[Aussie shooter]

[QUOTE="navastronia, post: 790714,
Because professional videographers and filmmakers don't spend their time arguing on forums -
[/QUOTE]
I think this line is very important. You are right. PROFESSIONAL videographers and film makers don't spend their time arguing on forums. They make films on PROFESSIONAL gear. Those on here arguing about the lack of 24p on this gear are not PROFESSIONAL and will not make PROFESSIONAL content regardless of the frame rate they are shooting in. If it Is crap in 30p it will be crap in 24p.

 

[Scenes]

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I should note HOWEVER, if your base of operations or servers IS in a European country and/or you SPECIFICALLY, by ongoing custom or by actual corporate directive, target European website users, THEN GDPR DOES APPLY on an absolute legal basis !!!.

So given that his base of operations is in Europe and his website is targeting European website users GDPR does apply?

 

[Scenes]

Just reading the 90D Manual and one thing I’ve not seen mentioned anywhere is if you use SDXC cards with a 90D it formats them as exFat and the 4GB video clip limit is removed. Nice. That’s incredibly useful.

 

[Ozarker]

Technically speaking, movie theaters do not display at 24fps. You would see the flicker. They display at 72fps or faster. As someone correctly mentioned in a previous comment, for a film shot in 24p, you see each of the 24 frames displayed on the screen three times in a row, for a total of 72 "flashes" on screen per second. This eliminates flicker to the human eye.

Which, incidentally, is why 60hz is the frequency chosen for AC power in the USA. Otherwise, we would perceive the flicker of the lights turning on and off... which is what happens in AC circuits. I'm sure 50hz does the same for people elsewhere. Very thoughtful post. Thanks Travel_Photographer.

 

[JBfromEngland]

Wasn't Canon one of the first manufacturers to bring 24p to the market with the 5D series? Since then it's been a staple in nearly all of their cameras, even the lower-end Rebel series.

It allowed small budget filmmakers to produce videos / short films that had the "Hollywood look" to them and it became the standard across the industry.

The main issue for me is that, my SL2 and 80D both have it and nearly all previous lower-end Canon cameras have included 24p for as long as I can remember, and now they've just started taking it away, forcing people to higher end models like the EOS R (which compared to other mirrorless cameras doesn't stack up yet). I do believe the upcoming models will though, given the new RF lenses.

It's frustrating considering they defintely were going to put it in the 90D as it was on the official spec sheet at launch. I read somewhere that someone officially asked Canon reps about 24p they said it was removed last minute. Not sure how true that is, obviously.

Anyway, those arguing about whether the camera is aimed at photographers or videographer is absurd. In an age where your smartphone can do everything, camera manufacturers need to be adding in more features to keep sales going and, businesses and media teams are requesting both stills and video from the same shooter more often.

Just put 24p back in the camera, Canon.

 

[Del Paso]

Crap! Neuro, he’s on to you! Better be careful or he will find out that you are also Mt Spokane, unfocused, click, myself, and Harry Film!

Remember, you read it here first!

 

[Otara]

No, what they wanted was the S1H, which has just been announced. Admittedly, if it was Canon they would be complaining that at was $1000 overpriced, but the S1H is the camera that DSLR video enthusiasts have been demanding.

Thats another price point again I think. Does look pretty good though.

 

[HarryFilm]

So given that his base of operations is in Europe and his website is targeting European website users GDPR does apply?

EosHD is a Euro guy? I know CanonRumors is a Canadian guy living in or near Ontario's lake country but I always though EOSHD was from California but travelled everywhere. Anyways, if he IS Euro then GDPR DEFINITELY APPLIES !!!!

Again, MANY U.S. and Canadian websites defer to GDPR rules more for customer relations purposes rather than on an ABSOLUTE legal requirement but GDPR really is NOT legally applicable to websites based in the USA and Canada with a .COM or .CA domain name who do not primarily target European users. For example: FroKnowsPhoto aka Jared Polin is PRIMARILY targeting US users and has the FULL protection of the First Amendment under the U.S. Constitution (i.e. Free Speech and Freedom of the Press) to completely ignore the mandates of the GDPR -- NO U.S. Judge will assign or apply any court order to follow GDPR rules nor will said U.S. judge sign any extradition order sending Jared to a GDPR country for GDPR prosecution!

BUT ... Google.com and Microsoft.com and even Canon, having European subsidiaries, DO HAVE TO abide by GDPR rules since those sites have specific systems and applications targeting Euro-centric users! And ... European countries CAN apply actual legal sanctions to the heads of Google, Microsoft and Canon AND said U.S. judge WILL sign an extradition order and/or apply legal sanction to those U.S.-based or Japanese entities and its principals BECAUSE they also specifically target European users and have operating European subsidiaries!

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[HarryFilm]

....AND.... All BlackMagic NEEDS to do now is licence some patented NIKON fast-focus technology for a measly ONE to THREE U.S. dollars per camera (which I think Nikon WOULD agree too!) to completely blow out any upcoming Canon or Sony low-to-mid-level Mirrorless/DSLR camera! A BlackMagic 6K BMPCC with Nikon D850 autofocus would just KILL the Canon M50 and even M5/M6 cameras. AND if BlackMagic WOULD make the 6K BMPCC IP-68 waterproof and weathersealed/ruggedized MOST users would spend an extra $100 to $150 US per camera to see that happen!

I personally think Nikon will EVENTUALLY BOW OUT of low-end camera production EXCEPT maybe for their ruggedized waterpoof point and shoots and focus ENTIRELY on the D6/Z6/Z7 and a mirrorless version of the D850 line. They WILL make money if they just focus on IP-68 waterproof point-and-shoots and the high end pro-series gear. There's ENOUGH people who DO NOT WANT to use a Canon 5D4/1Dx2 that Nikon will remain viable in the pro market with their current lens offerings!

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Sony has BETTER GET ON with introducing the 2/3rds inch and APS-C sensor super-smartphones before Olympus comes crashing through first with their well-priced Micro-4/3rds sensor IP-68 waterproof 4K 60 fps 10-bit 4:4:4/4:2:2 video-recording super-smartphone! I LIKE their super-rugged E-M1X series SO MUCH that I'm actually rooting for them now to BE FIRST in the large-sensor IP-68 ruggedized super-smartphone race!

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