Will dSLR's be sustained only by nostalgia?

Joules

EOS 7D MK II
Jul 16, 2017
583
542
Hamburg, Germany
you may not have much if any warning of when the interesting moment is likely to happen so taking bursts may not be the answer
I think the comment you referred to didn't suggest relying on some indication of upcoming action from the subject to start holding the shutter down. Instead it was about using a variantion of the EOS M6 II pre burst feature (also present on many non-Canon cameras, of course) where the camera continuesly stores images from the sensor in the buffer, but doesn't write them to the card - until the button is pressed, in which case the images from the last second before the button press are saved. So you don't have to rely on any indications, and instead only make a camera input once the action is over.

It‘s basically turning a mirrorless weakness - each image has to go through the processing pipeline before being displayed - into a strength. Because while a EVF can't have 0 latency, it can temporarily store the images it displays, while an OVF has no latency past the speed of light, but as there are no images involved there's nothing to store.

battery life may (or may not) cease to be a practical issue, ie even if a DSLR would go for longer on a single battery, a mirrorless camera may last long enough
As of right now, the discrepancy is pretty huge though. The 1DX III goes from 2850 shots per charge in the OVF (That's CIPA, not real world usage) to 610 in LiveView. And that's despite the massive improvement in efficiency that allows it to take twice as many shots as the 1DX II. Granted, LiveView does not equal an EVF, but the point is battery technology improves at a tiny rate at best, and the current gen DSLR (90D & 1DX III) saw big improvements in efficiency, I wonder how well optimized they are already.

The point of course still remains that as things improve, it comes down to the individual if the advantages of one system are big enough over another one to matter.
 
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Kit.

EOR R
Apr 25, 2011
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I think the comment you referred to didn't suggest relying on some indication of upcoming action from the subject to start holding the shutter down. Instead it was about using a variantion of the EOS M6 II pre burst feature
No kind of burst (preburst including) is an answer if a camera has a significant powerup to first shot delay.

In sports, you know when to keep your camera on. For wildlife photos, you might want to keep it on for hours without any obvious action happening.
 
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Optics Patent

Former Nikon (Changes to R5 upon delivery)
Nov 6, 2019
310
248
Cheerful, or gloating?
Two sides of the same coin that is entirely about the observer’s perspective, not the demeanor of the mirrorless enthusiast. If you disagree, quote the BEST one example of “floating”.

The other comments calling us cultists and such belie the understandable frustration of having been left behind as companies serve what their data tells them is the real market in which they can pursue profit for their owners.

I should note that “gloating” implies there ever was a competition between camps in which one prevailed. That competition never even existed and the only real competition is that of competing companies seeking to make appealing and profitable products.
 

YuengLinger

EOS 5D MK IV
Dec 20, 2012
2,792
991
Southeastern USA
This thread has had many thoughtful insights. I did get very excited about how great the R is for portrait photography, the precise AF even at f/1.2, the exposure preview...But, clearly, mirrorless has much to improve and does not yet suit the needs of all photographers. Unless some sort of hybrid viewfinder is available, one that allows seeing through the lens optically, but also allows an EVF to be overlayed or otherwise engaged, maybe some photographers will always want to stick with OVF, and that is understanble. Some very well stated reasoning throughout this thread, as said.

Admittedly, my unfortunate experience with the AF fail on a new RF 70-200mm (after the firmware update) has taken some wind out of my sails, but mostly it's the consistently intelligent and informative discussion here on CR. Did I blunder by selling of my 5DIV too soon? Perhaps, but second guessing isn't something I do well, so I'm counting on Canon to make Rf more of a well-rounded option.

(And I do know that my 70-200 problem was likely a one-off. My other Rf lenses fulfill all expectations and more. But rushing to upgrade has its downsides!)

If I came off too evangelistic for the cause of mirrorless, sorry!

Cheers!
 
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Kit.

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Apr 25, 2011
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The other comments calling us cultists
Who are those "us"? What group do you associate yourself with in this case?

Personally, my first film camera was mirrorless. My first digital camera was mirrorless... actually, the first digital camera I owned was a smartphone camera (Nokia 5500 Sport), but that doesn't count, because I have never used it to take pictures that I would keep. I own and use a camera with OVF, I own and use a camera with EVF, I own and use cameras without viewfinders at all. Am I one of those "us"? If so, why? If not, why not?

I should note that “gloating” implies there ever was a competition between camps in which one prevailed.
Not necessarily. It implies that one behaves as if there are "camps" and there was "a competition" between them.

It doesn't mean that anyone else even agrees there are any "camps".
 
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Joules

EOS 7D MK II
Jul 16, 2017
583
542
Hamburg, Germany
Did I blunder by selling of my 5DIV too soon? Perhaps, but second guessing isn't something I do well, so I'm counting on Canon to make Rf more of a well-rounded option.
Who can tell? There is abgood deal of uncertainty regarding the way the camera market will change. One may look back at some point and laugh or wonder at some things people said and did in these days were nobody really sees the big picture of what company goes in which direction.

But if you have gear now that you enjoy and that fills your need and gets you good Pictures, you're in a good position regardless.

And the way things are looking now, it does seem certain that Canon's upcoming RF bodies and lenses will provide value for a lot of people that will make the future of the mount look really promising. You can't get everyone happy with one product, DSLR will be sold as long as there are enough people buying them. That doesn't mean mirrorless isn't the better option for many people.
 
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cayenne

EOR R
Mar 28, 2012
2,078
200
Another core misconception here is that mirrorless development will go forward, while DSLR development will remain stationary. That's not going to happen. Companies will continue to refine and improve DSLR performance, often using the technologies developed for mirrorless, just as mirrorless will move forward often using DSLR technology.

Many of the people here in the mirrorless "camp" conveniently forget or dismiss DSLR advancements.
While I appreciate your sentiment here, I doubtful that this is the case going forward.

We've already seen Canon announce they are not planning any further research and development on the EF mount lenses, and going forward only with the RF mount which at this time is exclusive to their new mirrorless line.

So, from my viewpoint, such as it is.....It woudl appear to me that Canon isn't planning any future development and extension of the DSLR line....

C
 

cayenne

EOR R
Mar 28, 2012
2,078
200
I really don't think Mirrorless will replace Canon DSLR's until they create small high quality lenses to be a good fit for these smaller bodies. The only company that has done this right is fuji, they have a full suite of high quality lens with small form factor to match their compact bodies. Putting a huge 2lb plus RF 85mm f 1.2 lens on a small R body does not give you a small compact kit. It gives you a compact camera with a large heavy lens that looks silly on the body.

Well, that's only thinking along the lines that mirrorless is ONLY to be used to make the smallest of camera bodies, which of course is one potential avenue that excites some people.

However, I'd posit that there is a serious contingent of folks out there, that would like mirrorless, but keep the body in a larger format similar to the DSLR body types of today....entirely for the ergonomics they enjoy today, especially with larger lenses. Optics is grounded in physics and at some point, well, you can't get the performance you like without running into size choices that have to be made.

And really....should we be 'fat shaming' camera body sizes?
;)
But seriously, I myself would be very interested in the proposed new R bodies having about the same proportions as the 5D3-5D4...I like the size, the grips, room for controls and general ergonomics of that body size and would miss them on my mirrorless replacement.

C
 

cayenne

EOR R
Mar 28, 2012
2,078
200
Excellent point. Even with (or because of) my relatively small hands, I have real trouble balancing the ef 70-100mm f/2.8L IS II on the R when in portrait orientation. The lens is front heavy, the adapter adds length, and the shape and weight of the R just make it very difficult for me to keep the rig steady.

<snip>
I keep hearing this argument and am trying to picture how you're holding your camera....

I"m right handed...so, I hold the camera body with my right hand and my left hand is holding the lens for support but also for zoom....to me that seems to perfectly balance and distribute the weight of the camera/body combination no matter if I'm in portrait or landscape mode....

I keep my hands in these positions the whole time....

Are you holding your camera differently than that?

Just curious,

C

ps. my hands aren't the largest out there either...likely on the small side of medium.
 

YuengLinger

EOS 5D MK IV
Dec 20, 2012
2,792
991
Southeastern USA
I keep hearing this argument and am trying to picture how you're holding your camera....

I"m right handed...so, I hold the camera body with my right hand and my left hand is holding the lens for support but also for zoom....to me that seems to perfectly balance and distribute the weight of the camera/body combination no matter if I'm in portrait or landscape mode....

I keep my hands in these positions the whole time....

Are you holding your camera differently than that?

Just curious,

C

ps. my hands aren't the largest out there either...likely on the small side of medium.
Here's what happens. My right hand is on top holding camera body, with right index finger on shutter release; left hand holding lens. So my right elbow is up and out from my body. Because of how front heavy the combo is (ef 70-200 II + adapter + R), I have to put my LEFT hand further forward on the lens, meaning it my left arm/elbow isn't against my torso either for stability. Can you picture this?

However, when I'm holding in hoizontal position, I'm able to press my right upper-arm/elbow against my right torso for stability. But, again, because the combo is front heavy, I'm finding I have to put my left hand further out on the barrel to maintain stability. So I can get steady shots, but it is definitely more awkward than any other combo/rig I've used before.
 
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cayenne

EOR R
Mar 28, 2012
2,078
200
Here's what happens. My right hand is on top holding camera body, with right index finger on shutter release; left hand holding lens. So my right elbow is up and out from my body. Because of how front heavy the combo is (ef 70-200 II + adapter + R), I have to put my LEFT hand further forward on the lens, meaning it also isn't against my torso for stability. Can you picture this?

However, when I'm holding in hoizontal position, I'm able to press my right upper-arm/elbow against my right torso for stability. But, again, because the combo is front heavy, I'm finding I have to put my left hand further out on the barrel to maintain stability. So I can get steady shots, but it is definitely more awkward than any other combo/rig I've used before.
Ok well, that sounds mostly like how I'm holding it too....although I don't know that my left hand EVER is against my body for extra stability.

Hm...I may have to go grab my camera and see how I do it actually.
:)

But ok, that's about how I do it and it just seemed always natural how to hold things, no matter the lens size....

Hmm...just thought more about it...in portrait my right hand usually is also touching the top of my head, so there is extra stability there I guess....

LOL...dammit, now I'm gonna have to film myself shooting stills to see just how exactly I hold the darned camera and lens combos....

Likely will mess with me now thinking how I used to do things without thinking!!

:O

C
 

AlanF

Canon 5DSR II
Aug 16, 2012
6,226
4,108
Two sides of the same coin that is entirely about the observer’s perspective, not the demeanor of the mirrorless enthusiast. If you disagree, quote the BEST one example of “floating”.

The other comments calling us cultists and such belie the understandable frustration of having been left behind as companies serve what their data tells them is the real market in which they can pursue profit for their owners.

I should note that “gloating” implies there ever was a competition between camps in which one prevailed. That competition never even existed and the only real competition is that of competing companies seeking to make appealing and profitable products.
If you don't like analogies to cultism, here is a poem by Sir John Suckling (1609-41), which may be close to the truth of being in love with one's new gear.
“Love is the fart of every heart: It pains a man when 'tis kept close, And others doth offend, when 'tis let loose. ”

Sir John Suckling.jpg
 
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YuengLinger

EOS 5D MK IV
Dec 20, 2012
2,792
991
Southeastern USA
Ok well, that sounds mostly like how I'm holding it too....although I don't know that my left hand EVER is against my body for extra stability.

Hm...I may have to go grab my camera and see how I do it actually.
:)

But ok, that's about how I do it and it just seemed always natural how to hold things, no matter the lens size....

Hmm...just thought more about it...in portrait my right hand usually is also touching the top of my head, so there is extra stability there I guess....

LOL...dammit, now I'm gonna have to film myself shooting stills to see just how exactly I hold the darned camera and lens combos....

Likely will mess with me now thinking how I used to do things without thinking!!

:O

C
I meant my left arm is not against my torso, not my hand. I went back and edited for clarification. Thanks!

You don't mean you have both elbows out and away from your body, do you?

Are you using the same combo?