3D (Again) & 5D Mark III (CR1)

[Admin US West]

I can't believe that -anyone- prepared to pay several thousand dollars for an EOS 3D DSLR would seriously expect it to be a '3D' camera and then be surprised to find it wasn't.

Then again there are plenty of people about with more money than sense

Hello Keith, welcome to Canon rumors. Many of us (or at least me) follow your blog at Northlight Rumors, and particularly admire your experience and expertise with printing.

 

[c.d.embrey]

Including eye-controlled AF?

Absolutely, I have always loved the feature. And provided I "reteach" the camera regularly it continues to perform, AF'ing faster and more reliably than any digital upstart I've played with.

I am very aware that it is troublesome for those with "oriental eyes" as for whatever reason it plays up for these ethnic groups, but for us northern european's its fine. As I've said, it did/does need teaching and that takes time and patience which might explain why some decided not to bother.

I'm a French-English-German mix, and I HATE eye-control. I didn't buy an EOS 3, when new, because of eye-control. I didn't buy an Elan 7ne, because of eye-control, instead I got an Elan 7n (no eye-control).

Just because you like something, don't make the mistake that everyone likes it.

 

[c.d.embrey]

The Canon 3D is real, but Nikon sells it under the name D700. Full Frame, low mega-pixel, 51 focus points (15 cross-sensors) and good high ISO performance.

 

[ronderick]

Wow... here comes the 3D rumor again... ;D

I remember we were taking about the possible upper-tier 5D model a long while back, and used '3D' as a theoretical name (7D-5D-3D). Though at that time we see the 3D as the one with the edge in video capacity while 7D has the speed and 5D with the resolution...

Well, unless the plan is to get the Fujifilm camera designed for taking 3D photos (or the Panasonic lens with the function), I don't think the user who's going to fork out 2.5K+ for that camera would make the mistake w/o doing basic homework first.

Assuming there's going to be a 3D-line, the question now would be whether it's going to be a video-oriented camera or a more feature-packed version of the 5D series.

 

[Gcon]

FF
24 MP
30+ pt af
8 fps
dual digic V
dual card slots
weather sealed

~$3.5K - $4K and I'd buy 2

It could be more sports/wildlife oriented than the new 5D which could remain the slow, entry level FF that people expect. That leaves plenty of features left over for a flagship 1 series body with 10fps, integrated grip, 1.3 crop mode and a gazillion megapixels.....

I'm with you on this one buddy!

 

[Heidrun]

FF
24 MP
30+ pt af
8 fps
dual digic V
dual card slots
weather sealed

~$3.5K - $4K and I'd buy 2

It could be more sports/wildlife oriented than the new 5D which could remain the slow, entry level FF that people expect. That leaves plenty of features left over for a flagship 1 series body with 10fps, integrated grip, 1.3 crop mode and a gazillion megapixels.....

I'm with you on this one buddy!

I hope that if and when the 3d comes on the market that it is more like the 1Ds series. Need no more than about 3 frames per second. about 30 mp. no mirror. good performance at iso 12800 good resolution and weatherproof

 

[motorhead]

Including eye-controlled AF?

Absolutely, I have always loved the feature. And provided I "reteach" the camera regularly it continues to perform, AF'ing faster and more reliably than any digital upstart I've played with.

I am very aware that it is troublesome for those with "oriental eyes" as for whatever reason it plays up for these ethnic groups, but for us northern european's its fine. As I've said, it did/does need teaching and that takes time and patience which might explain why some decided not to bother.

I'm a French-English-German mix, and I HATE eye-control. I didn't buy an EOS 3, when new, because of eye-control. I didn't buy an Elan 7ne, because of eye-control, instead I got an Elan 7n (no eye-control).

Just because you like something, don't make the mistake that everyone likes it.

I'd never dream of trying to force others. We are all individuals with our own unique set of requirements. But I was asked the question so gave an honest response.

I would love to know why you hate eye-control with such a passion (about the same as me with video!). You are aware that the cameras needed to be taught how the users iris works and the more training the camera got, the better it became? My Eos3 took some weeks when I first had it, with regular retraining as my eyesight changes with time.

 

[Stone]

FF
24 MP
30+ pt af
8 fps
dual digic V
dual card slots
weather sealed

~$3.5K - $4K and I'd buy 2

It could be more sports/wildlife oriented than the new 5D which could remain the slow, entry level FF that people expect. That leaves plenty of features left over for a flagship 1 series body with 10fps, integrated grip, 1.3 crop mode and a gazillion megapixels.....

I'm with you on this one buddy!

I hope that if and when the 3d comes on the market that it is more like the 1Ds series. Need no more than about 3 frames per second. about 30 mp. no mirror. good performance at iso 12800 good resolution and weatherproof

With the exception of no mirror, you're probably describing the 5D replacement. It will more than likely be close to 30MP, still shooting around 3fps and with Nikon's current bodies having a pretty good lead when it comes to high ISO, I expect any and all Canon's FF bodies will have a relatively clean ISO 12800 this time around.

So you will more than likely get what you're asking for and then some, those of us that want FF AND the ability to shoot things that move are the ones on the edge of our seats right now praying that Canon is finally ready to step up....

 

[gene_can_sing]

To me, the 3D name implies that it's a video skewed DSLR (just in name, and not in the sense that it will be a 3 Dimensional camera).

That would be the smartest thing Canon could do. Make the 3D like the Full Frame Nikon D700. Limit it to 12 megapixels, which is about the max to co-exist with good video. Have better high ISO. Make it the performer camera, and leave the megapixel war to the other Full frames.

12 Megapixels is still a huge image. At 300 DPI, you can make a 40" by 26.6" print, which is still pretty huge. For me being a video guy, that's far more than adequate.

And of course, make it a great video camera. 4:2:2 in camera with RAW to recorder option. Flip Screen. 3x Crop Mode. Electronic EVF and mirror-less so it could take PL mount (something I doubt would happen).

The 3D should be the Full Frame video camera, while the 5D3 is for stills guys. That way both camps can be happy.

With DSLR video, you cannot make both camps happy, so it should be split. Flip screens, EVFs/mirrorless are things that many stills guys hate, but video guys like. It's time for a divorce. Everyone will be happier.

 

[awinphoto]

12 Megapixels is still a huge image. At 300 DPI, you can make a 40" by 26.6" print, which is still pretty huge. For me being a video guy, that's far more than adequate.

on the 7d at 18 MP it can natively print at 300 DPI you can print 17.5" x11.5" To get a 40" print, on a 7D, you have to interpolate the print over 2x to get 300dpi 40". I cringe at thinking what a 12MP would have to be upsampled to to reach 40"

Since I always show my math (5184 pixels / 300 dpi = 17.28" L and 3456 pixels / 300 dpi = 11.52). Basically in essence you would get as good print results printing at 150 dpi to get than upsampling and have photoshop guess at the pixel information.

 

[bikersbeard]

reading on other sites etc, is more MP needed ?

it seems nikon with the D3 / D3s / D700 with 12MP has got it right with the high ISO, no ?

at the moment im been to a few photo workshops and all these pro's are shooting with nikons for this reason, and a few have jumped ship.

some where saying that canons glass cant bring out the best of the 21MP sensor nevermind a higher MP

 

[dr croubie]

some where saying that canons glass cant bring out the best of the 21MP sensor nevermind a higher MP

Some lenses can get the best of a 40-50mp+ sensor, but some start to show their squidgyness at above 8mp.

The last year canon have anounced a lot of updates of their long primes and zoom, 300&400 f2.8, 500&600 f4, the 70-200 f2.8is, and the 200-400 f4 1.4x whatever it's called.
The image quality of those, according to canon's MTF charts at least, will be stunning (i hope in real life too).
I reckon they will keep up with sensor resolutions to be released in the future until the next lens update, which could be up to 10 years from now...

(ok, now we need an update on the wide-angle side of things in 2011, only 7 months left...)

 

[gene_can_sing]

Since I always show my math (5184 pixels / 300 dpi = 17.28" L and 3456 pixels / 300 dpi = 11.52). Basically in essence you would get as good print results printing at 150 dpi to get than upsampling and have photoshop guess at the pixel information.

Oppssss. I could be wrong. Sorry if I am. I've never been a print photo guy, but always video. When we refer to a 2K image, it means roughly 2000 pixels by 1000 pixels. So I just assumed that 12 megapixels = 12K image in video, which would be about 12000 pixels across, which = 40 inches at 300 DPI.

But like I said, I'm probably not correct.

But yeah, please split the 5D / 3D into a video DSLR and a stills DSLR. It's the best thing that could happen. Video is moving so fast these days, Canon needs a split video full frame model they can update more frequently to keep up with Sony and Panasonic who are starting to kick Canon's rear end really bad. Canon needs to act soon.

 

[autochrome]

Perhaps someone can clear a couple of doubts. At Northlight Images, more precisely on the Canon 3D topic, there's a mention to a new sensor for 3D, and this:

# 29th Lots of comment received about yesterday's 3D info, including a reminder of Canon's 3 colour sensor patent from last year. This from our 7D rumours page:
# A multi level 'Foveon style' sensor patent from Canon from Jan 2009 USP 20090008735
# "...proposes a photo-detection method that uses a two-dimensionally laminated image sensor in which a pixel has a multilayer structure and the three colors of RGB are detected at different depths utilizing differences in the absorption coefficients of Si. In this two-dimensionally laminated image sensor, a high S/N ratio can be expected because photo detectors having a spectroscopic function are arranged and loss of light due to the presence of a color filter does not occur"
# More Canon patents to trawl through at LP. You can get full PDFs of some patents by entering the patent number at http://www.pat2pdf.org/

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_3d.html

I'm just wondering about the way Canon introduces new technology. If this turns out to be true, a completely new sensor, as in not an evolution of existing sensors, then perhaps it would make more sense in introducing this in another camera. It would also justify the high prices - new technology, expensive, not a high yield or a high yield but not enough orders to push the price down - this would put the new sensor technology camera at a higher price point than the for instance, 5D. At the same time, both the 5D Mk.III and the new 1D would share an evolution from the existing sensor technology, the article here at CR mentions the 5D sharing the same sensor with the merged 1D camera range. It would be risky to place a bet on an entirely new technology on your cash cow - the 5D, and the "brand representatives", the 1D. Canon would have a high end FF, the 1D, an "entry level", the 5D, with an improvement over existing and proven technology, while the 3D would introduce the first attempt(s) at a radical shift in sensor technology without having to sacrifice their existing cameras range and infuriating a lot of customers that have certain expectations from their material.
Then again, the 3D might be just vapourware, or part of an elaborate confuse-a-cat campaign.

 

[dr croubie]

a) i've just shared a bottle of wine.
b) i'm not the best at reading patents.
c) i didn't read the text anyway

but d) that diagram, using 3-level-sensors only sensitive to one colour each, looks suspiciously like a Sigma DP1 sensor. It would certainly make a good marketing spin: "The 3D, with 3-Layer sensor!"

<edit> and e), now that i read the text it says foveon-type anyway... but more power to the company that tries something new. will it give up more dynamic range? i'm sure most people are tired of megapixel wars and would rather more dr than mp in the next round...</edit>

Cool if Canon can pull one off, from what i hear they give better res than a regular sensor for the same MP, i just hope Sigma don't give them a bad name with their $10k joke...

 

[Lawliet]

I would love to know why you hate eye-control with such a passion (about the same as me with video!). You are aware that the cameras needed to be taught how the users iris works and the more training the camera got, the better it became?

Some people tend to look around in die viewfinder to check the exact composition.
For me EC worked fine. Unless I had just recently used a MF/LF camera, which made it rather troublesome. Imo its not the system, but the way the user thinks.

 

[Justin]

12 Megapixels is still a huge image. At 300 DPI, you can make a 40" by 26.6" print, which is still pretty huge. For me being a video guy, that's far more than adequate.

on the 7d at 18 MP it can natively print at 300 DPI you can print 17.5" x11.5" To get a 40" print, on a 7D, you have to interpolate the print over 2x to get 300dpi 40". I cringe at thinking what a 12MP would have to be upsampled to to reach 40"

Since I always show my math (5184 pixels / 300 dpi = 17.28" L and 3456 pixels / 300 dpi = 11.52). Basically in essence you would get as good print results printing at 150 dpi to get than upsampling and have photoshop guess at the pixel information.

Good. Thanks for your maths. Thankfully Canon understands this and makes cameras for people who want to (try to) make fine art prints. If you're a wedding photog then shoot mraw or jpeg and call it a day. I don't want to pay $3 or $5k or more for sensor density that is 6 years old.

 

[hmmm]

Perhaps someone can clear a couple of doubts. At Northlight Images, more precisely on the Canon 3D topic, there's a mention to a new sensor for 3D, and this:

# 29th Lots of comment received about yesterday's 3D info, including a reminder of Canon's 3 colour sensor patent from last year. This from our 7D rumours page:
# A multi level 'Foveon style' sensor patent from Canon from Jan 2009 USP 20090008735
# "...proposes a photo-detection method that uses a two-dimensionally laminated image sensor in which a pixel has a multilayer structure and the three colors of RGB are detected at different depths utilizing differences in the absorption coefficients of Si. In this two-dimensionally laminated image sensor, a high S/N ratio can be expected because photo detectors having a spectroscopic function are arranged and loss of light due to the presence of a color filter does not occur"
# More Canon patents to trawl through at LP. You can get full PDFs of some patents by entering the patent number at http://www.pat2pdf.org/

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_3d.html

I'm just wondering about the way Canon introduces new technology. If this turns out to be true, a completely new sensor, as in not an evolution of existing sensors, then perhaps it would make more sense in introducing this in another camera. It would also justify the high prices - new technology, expensive, not a high yield or a high yield but not enough orders to push the price down - this would put the new sensor technology camera at a higher price point than the for instance, 5D. At the same time, both the 5D Mk.III and the new 1D would share an evolution from the existing sensor technology, the article here at CR mentions the 5D sharing the same sensor with the merged 1D camera range. It would be risky to place a bet on an entirely new technology on your cash cow - the 5D, and the "brand representatives", the 1D. Canon would have a high end FF, the 1D, an "entry level", the 5D, with an improvement over existing and proven technology, while the 3D would introduce the first attempt(s) at a radical shift in sensor technology without having to sacrifice their existing cameras range and infuriating a lot of customers that have certain expectations from their material.
Then again, the 3D might be just vapourware, or part of an elaborate confuse-a-cat campaign.

And Northlight has a nice timeline table: http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_5d3.html#timeline

From the timeline I'd say Canon has their ducks in a row -- announce the 1ds replacement (the oldest model) with the new sensor (and Digic V) this summer, announce the 5dmkII (the second oldest model) replacement(s) with the new sensor / Digic V this fall (perhaps for early 2012 shipping), then rollout 7D mkII, 70D, and 700D in sequence with the new sensor / Digic V technology, with the announcement chronology parallel to that of the 7D, 60D, and T3i/600D -- throughout 2012. That is also the order of incumbent model age. Highest profit margin models get the new technology first.

The opinion will be posted that the flagship never pioneers the new technology, but in this case I think it will. Canon needs to regain momentum in the sector, imho.

 

[Rowbear]

That EOS 3D mockup on the front page also has an EF-40mm f/1.2 L

Cute

 

[motorhead]

I would love to know why you hate eye-control with such a passion (about the same as me with video!). You are aware that the cameras needed to be taught how the users iris works and the more training the camera got, the better it became?

Some people tend to look around in die viewfinder to check the exact composition.
For me EC worked fine. Unless I had just recently used a MF/LF camera, which made it rather troublesome. Imo its not the system, but the way the user thinks.

Nothing in the eye-control system prevented me carefully viewing the composition and tweaking as required.