6D mark II is out... any news about full frame mirrorless?

AvTvM

EOS R6
Nov 4, 2011
3,165
0
Waiting for Sony A7 And A7R Mk. III. if Canon does not launch a fully competitive FF mirrorless system by then (camera/s, new native short ffd lens mount, plus good startibg lineup of new conpact lenses plus clear roadmap), it will be the final farewell for my current canon 5D iii and L-glass. not interested in 5d iv or 6d ii or any other mirrorslapper. also not interested in sony A9 - dont need crazy high fps. want very compact, but fully competent gear at reasonable prices.
 

Jopa

EOS R
Dec 11, 2015
1,054
0
AvTvM said:
Waiting for Sony A7 And A7R Mk. III. if Canon does not launch a fully competitive FF mirrorless system by then (camera/s, new native short ffd lens mount, plus good startibg lineup of new conpact lenses plus clear roadmap), it will be the final farewell for my current canon 5D iii and L-glass. not interested in 5d iv or 6d ii or any other mirrorslapper. also not interested in sony A9 - dont need crazy high fps. want very compact, but fully competent gear at reasonable prices.

What % improvement to your photography do you expect if you get such camera?
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,617
1,642
I have a nutty theory on this: perhaps 2018 is the best time for Canon to roll out a mirrorless FF rig, and not in a 'because they have to' sort of way -- more of 'because they always planned to' sort of way. Hear me out.

Despite the recent '7D3 coming next year' rumor that just dropped here at CR, I see there being a hole in the calendar next year. The cascade of FF body updates (1DX2/5D4/6D2) are now complete, and according to some crude past-is-prologue math here:

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=32819.msg669658#msg669658

The 5DS/R update, 7D3 and 90D are tracking well into 2019.

So what big deal product is Canon rolling out next year?
::) I personally am not buying the recent 7D3 in 2018 rumor.

Perhaps 2018 was cleared out to give a new product line like FF mirrorless all the spotlight/attention/etc. I'm not married to this idea, but it's a fun one to mull over.

- A
 

BillB

EOS R
May 11, 2017
1,393
659
ahsanford said:
I have a nutty theory on this: perhaps 2018 is the best time for Canon to roll out a mirrorless FF rig, and not in a 'because they have to' sort of way -- more of 'because they always planned to' sort of way. Hear me out.

Despite the recent '7D3 coming next year' rumor that just dropped here at CR, I see there being a hole in the calendar next year. The cascade of FF body updates (1DX2/5D4/6D2) are now complete, and according to some crude past-is-prologue math here:

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=32819.msg669658#msg669658

The 5DS/R update, 7D3 and 90D are tracking well into 2019.

So what big deal product is Canon rolling out next year?
::) I personally am not buying the recent 7D3 in 2018 rumor.

Perhaps 2018 was cleared out to give a new product line like FF mirrorless all the spotlight/attention/etc. I'm not married to this idea, but it's a fun one to mull over.

- A

I'm wondering whether the 90D may be the next EVF Camera, with emphasis on video. It seems to me that Canon tends to start at the APS-C level on quite a bit of stuff. After the great 6DII 4K video hullabaloo, the idea of a serious FF video/stills camera with an OVF has started to seem very strange to me. EVR makes a lot more sense for video, and I am wondering whether APS-C might be the way to go. FF is a more expensive proposition than crop, and the video guys don't seem all that hung up about sensor size anyway. All this assumes that Canon thinks a serious video/stills camera makes sense, and I am not sure that is the case. I know I wouldn't buy one.
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,617
1,642
BillB said:
I'm wondering whether the 90D may be the next EVF Camera, with emphasis on video. It seems to me that Canon tends to start at the APS-C level on quite a bit of stuff. After the great 6DII 4K video hullabaloo, the idea of a serious FF video/stills camera with an OVF has started to seem very strange to me. EVR makes a lot more sense for video, and I am wondering whether APS-C might be the way to go. FF is a more expensive proposition than crop, and the video guys don't seem all that hung up about sensor size anyway. All this assumes that Canon thinks a serious video/stills camera makes sense, and I am not sure that is the case. I know I wouldn't buy one.

Some folks have a misconception that tilty-flippy + DPAF means you buy an 80D principally for video purposes. I personally don't think that at all.

The XXD line is first and foremost the 'upgrade-from-Rebel' line. In that, it will have an OVF until Rebels no longer have an OVF. I do not buy the theory that Canon will arbitrarily reach into the middle of their crop SLR line and start tinkering with EVFs.

The more money you've sunk into an SLR, I'm guessing the more you'd feel the battery life / lag pain of switching to an EVF. So if and when a 'crossover' of SLRs to mirrorless will happen -- and it won't be for a few Rebel generations, I'd wager -- they'd start from the bottom and climb up.

- A
 

BillB

EOS R
May 11, 2017
1,393
659
ahsanford said:
BillB said:
I'm wondering whether the 90D may be the next EVF Camera, with emphasis on video. It seems to me that Canon tends to start at the APS-C level on quite a bit of stuff. After the great 6DII 4K video hullabaloo, the idea of a serious FF video/stills camera with an OVF has started to seem very strange to me. EVR makes a lot more sense for video, and I am wondering whether APS-C might be the way to go. FF is a more expensive proposition than crop, and the video guys don't seem all that hung up about sensor size anyway. All this assumes that Canon thinks a serious video/stills camera makes sense, and I am not sure that is the case. I know I wouldn't buy one.

Some folks have a misconception that tilty-flippy + DPAF means you buy an 80D principally for video purposes. I personally don't think that at all.

The XXD line is first and foremost the 'upgrade-from-Rebel' line. In that, it will have an OVF until Rebels no longer have an OVF. I do not buy the theory that Canon will arbitrarily reach into the middle of their crop SLR line and start tinkering with EVFs.

The more money you've sunk into an SLR, I'm guessing the more you'd feel the battery life / lag pain of switching to an EVF. So if and when a 'crossover' of SLRs to mirrorless will happen -- and it won't be for a few Rebel generations, I'd wager -- they'd start from the bottom and climb up.

- A

Fair enough. I was starting with another piece of the puzzle. To me, it doesn't make sense to try to get serious about video with an OVF camera. Then the question becomes crop or FF?
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,617
1,642
BillB said:
Fair enough. I was starting with another piece of the puzzle. To me, it doesn't make sense to try to get serious about video with an OVF camera. Then the question becomes crop or FF?

Canon has shown us what an enthusiast's 'serious about video' camera looks like: a smaller than crop sensor and a fixed lens. ::)

- A
 

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AvTvM

EOS R6
Nov 4, 2011
3,165
0
Jopa said:
AvTvM said:
Waiting for Sony A7 And A7R Mk. III. if Canon does not launch a fully competitive FF mirrorless system by then (camera/s, new native short ffd lens mount, plus good startibg lineup of new conpact lenses plus clear roadmap), it will be the final farewell for my current canon 5D iii and L-glass. not interested in 5d iv or 6d ii or any other mirrorslapper. also not interested in sony A9 - dont need crazy high fps. want very compact, but fully competent gear at reasonable prices.

What % improvement to your photography do you expect if you get such camera?

about 100% compared to my currently used 5D III and Canon EOS M ... in terms of IQ/sensor, AF (especially coverage of entire frame), EVF that works in bright sunlight (vs. EOS M w/o EVF), no mirrorslap, no vibrations, no noise at all thanks to a fully electronic shutter, less conspicuos rig for more/better undetected candid shots; many more images from city trips and alpine ventures thanks to smaller, lighter gear that i would carry along (compared to 5d iii + lenses). and a whole lot more. :)
 

Jopa

EOS R
Dec 11, 2015
1,054
0
AvTvM said:
Jopa said:
AvTvM said:
Waiting for Sony A7 And A7R Mk. III. if Canon does not launch a fully competitive FF mirrorless system by then (camera/s, new native short ffd lens mount, plus good startibg lineup of new conpact lenses plus clear roadmap), it will be the final farewell for my current canon 5D iii and L-glass. not interested in 5d iv or 6d ii or any other mirrorslapper. also not interested in sony A9 - dont need crazy high fps. want very compact, but fully competent gear at reasonable prices.

What % improvement to your photography do you expect if you get such camera?

about 100% compared to my currently used 5D III and Canon EOS M ... in terms of IQ/sensor, AF (especially coverage of entire frame), EVF that works in bright sunlight (vs. EOS M w/o EVF), no mirrorslap, no vibrations, no noise at all thanks to a fully electronic shutter, less conspicuos rig for more/better undetected candid shots; many more images from city trips and alpine ventures thanks to smaller, lighter gear that i would carry along (compared to 5d iii + lenses). and a whole lot more. :)

I owned / shot every single Sony FF camera since the A99, Canon 5dsr, Canon 1dx2. Without pixel peeping looking at a large 4k screen (image fit) there is 0 difference. Lenses make the only difference. But good modern FF lenses are heavy with no exception. EVF, OVF, 100g weight diff, mirror - I frankly don't understand why would anyone care? Any camera built since 2012 has way more than enough features to compose and take a shot. If you are a spy and really need a "less conspicuous rig", I don't think any mass-market camera will work for you, it should be something 007-style, like a pen or in-retina built camera? :)
 

Khalai

In the absence of light, darknoise prevails...
May 13, 2014
714
0
36
Prague
Jopa said:
AvTvM said:
Jopa said:
AvTvM said:
Waiting for Sony A7 And A7R Mk. III. if Canon does not launch a fully competitive FF mirrorless system by then (camera/s, new native short ffd lens mount, plus good startibg lineup of new conpact lenses plus clear roadmap), it will be the final farewell for my current canon 5D iii and L-glass. not interested in 5d iv or 6d ii or any other mirrorslapper. also not interested in sony A9 - dont need crazy high fps. want very compact, but fully competent gear at reasonable prices.

What % improvement to your photography do you expect if you get such camera?

about 100% compared to my currently used 5D III and Canon EOS M ... in terms of IQ/sensor, AF (especially coverage of entire frame), EVF that works in bright sunlight (vs. EOS M w/o EVF), no mirrorslap, no vibrations, no noise at all thanks to a fully electronic shutter, less conspicuos rig for more/better undetected candid shots; many more images from city trips and alpine ventures thanks to smaller, lighter gear that i would carry along (compared to 5d iii + lenses). and a whole lot more. :)

I owned / shot every single Sony FF camera since the A99, Canon 5dsr, Canon 1dx2. Without pixel peeping looking at a large 4k screen (image fit) there is 0 difference. Lenses make the only difference. But good modern FF lenses are heavy with no exception. EVF, OVF, 100g weight diff, mirror - I frankly don't understand why would anyone care? Any camera built since 2012 has way more than enough features to compose and take a shot. If you are a spy and really need a "less conspicuous rig", I don't think any mass-market camera will work for you, it should be something 007-style, like a pen or in-retina built camera? :)

Not to mention that A7 was indeed smaller and lighter, but A72 or A7r2 are basically as heavy as 6D body. And lenses like 16-35/4 or 24-70/4 are neither small nor light. Yes, if you mount something like Zeiss Loxia 21/2.8 or Sonnar 55/1.8 FE, then those are rather smallish lenses. But so it 24/2.8 IS or 50/1.8 STM :)

Weight and size difference were advantage when MILC begun to rise. Right now, if you want FF mirrorless, you'll have to makedo with similar weights and sizes as DSLR. If you opt for Fuji or Olympus, that's another matter, unless you mount some 2.8 zooms on them, which are basically as large and as heavy as DSLR counterparts. Can't cheat physics...
 

zim

EOS 5D Mark IV
CR Pro
Oct 18, 2011
2,129
317
I always thought that the SL2 would have been a good/better place to start with an EVF and no adapter.
 

AvTvM

EOS R6
Nov 4, 2011
3,165
0
#conspicuous

i can enter *any* event around here - concert, social, sports - without any problems with Canon EOS M + 22/2.0.
I can enter *almost any* event with Sony A7 II plus 35/2.8 lens.
I can *hardly enter* any event (non-accredited) with a Canon mirrorslapper plus lens.

that simple. :)
 

Khalai

In the absence of light, darknoise prevails...
May 13, 2014
714
0
36
Prague
AvTvM said:
#conspicuous

i can enter *any* event around here - concert, social, sports - without any problems with Canon EOS M + 22/2.0.
I can enter *almost any* event with Sony A7 II plus 35/2.8 lens.
I can *hardly enter* any event (non-accredited) with a Canon mirrorslapper plus lens.

that simple. :)

Put e.g. 24-70/2.8 GM, Distagon 35/1.4 ZA or 85/1.4 GM lens on that A7 II and then try to enter :p
 

AvTvM

EOS R6
Nov 4, 2011
3,165
0
Khalai said:
AvTvM said:
#conspicuous

i can enter *any* event around here - concert, social, sports - without any problems with Canon EOS M + 22/2.0.
I can enter *almost any* event with Sony A7 II plus 35/2.8 lens.
I can *hardly enter* any event (non-accredited) with a Canon mirrorslapper plus lens.

that simple. :)

Put e.g. 24-70/2.8 GM, Distagon 35/1.4 ZA or 85/1.4 GM lens on that A7 II and then try to enter :p

I will do that when needed, and accredited. With small "non-DSLR-looking" gear I have the option to capture all other events in addition. That simple.
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,617
1,642
Khalai said:
AvTvM said:
#conspicuous

i can enter *any* event around here - concert, social, sports - without any problems with Canon EOS M + 22/2.0.
I can enter *almost any* event with Sony A7 II plus 35/2.8 lens.
I can *hardly enter* any event (non-accredited) with a Canon mirrorslapper plus lens.

that simple. :)

Put e.g. 24-70/2.8 GM, Distagon 35/1.4 ZA or 85/1.4 GM lens on that A7 II and then try to enter :p

Point: Khalai.

- A
 

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Mikehit

EOS R6
Jul 28, 2015
3,341
544
AvTvM said:
Jopa said:
What % improvement to your photography do you expect if you get such camera?

about 100% compared to my currently used 5D III and Canon EOS M ... in terms of IQ/sensor, AF (especially coverage of entire frame), EVF that works in bright sunlight (vs. EOS M w/o EVF), no mirrorslap, no vibrations, no noise at all thanks to a fully electronic shutter, less conspicuos rig for more/better undetected candid shots; many more images from city trips and alpine ventures thanks to smaller, lighter gear that i would carry along (compared to 5d iii + lenses). and a whole lot more. :)

So how do you define 100% improvement in those criteria?
 

LonelyBoy

EOS RP
Feb 18, 2015
745
0
AvTvM said:
#conspicuous

i can enter *any* event around here - concert, social, sports - without any problems with Canon EOS M + 22/2.0.
I can enter *almost any* event with Sony A7 II plus 35/2.8 lens.
I can *hardly enter* any event (non-accredited) with a Canon mirrorslapper plus lens.

that simple. :)

Do you really think the extra half-inch of depth you might lose by going to a mirrorless version of a 6D would change that? Or would the reality of a big lens on a FF body be that you can't get anywhere new? And would a 40/2.8 STM on a 6D really stop you from getting in? I have a hard time believing the latter.
 

AvTvM

EOS R6
Nov 4, 2011
3,165
0
yes. Every half inch matters.

btw: got the EF 40, like it. But combo with 5D III still too big/conspicuous for many venues. And not silent.

Ideal FF mirrorless cam for me would be size and form factor of Sony RX-1R II ... just with lens mount instead of fixed lens.
 

LonelyBoy

EOS RP
Feb 18, 2015
745
0
AvTvM said:
yes. Every half inch matters.

btw: got the EF 40, like it. But combo with 5D III still too big/conspicuous for many venues. And not silent.

Ideal FF mirrorless cam for me would be size and form factor of Sony RX-1R II ... just with lens mount instead of fixed lens.

If you say so. I strongly suspect that Canon isn't really interested in supplying that particular need, though, so don't hold your breath waiting.
 

Luds34

EOS R
May 15, 2014
918
0
AvTvM said:
EVF that works in bright sunlight

Do you wear sunglasses in bright sunlight? While an EVF is a huge benefit over the back LCD on a bright sunny day, it is still far from perfect. The EVF "may" have an advantage (one I've never ran into in real shooting as myabe my eyes are still too good) in low light but the OVF wins in bright light. If there is any light leakage (wearing spectacles, sunglasses, etc) it can easily over power the EVF screen. Something as silly as bright enough light leaking to the face detection sensor (assuming the camera is in the auto mode from back LCD to EVF) can render the viewfinder blind.

I know know, they're getting their, they are improving, etc. etc. I just don't see an EVF beating the simplicity of the OVF in good to bright light. It's natures most perfect auto brightness setting. ;)