Adobe Reports Record Revenue in the Third Quarter

Orangutan

EOS 5D Mark IV
Sep 25, 2010
2,140
3
LDS said:
Orangutan said:
First, back in those days you didn't need an ongoing relationship with the vendor; once you buy you're done. When/if you upgrade, you can give your old version to your cousin who might want to play with it.

No, you couldn't - legally, unless you bought a new full license, and not an upgrade. A software upgrade is part of the actual license.

These behaviors telss that Adobe, after all, could be right.... ::)

For an upgrade you're correct. How much did an upgrade cost back then?

Adobe was definitely "right" in the business sense. It doesn't mean I have to like it.
 

daphins

EOS M50
Jun 15, 2017
41
0
unfocused said:
Can't people take 15 seconds to do a google search before spouting off?

There are tons of programs and advice on opening and converting PSD files if you just type it in. Plus, you can always convert files to a .tif or .jpg. Alternatively, you can spend about $50 and pick up Photoshop elements to open the files. And, just like in the analog era, you always have your negative (now we call it a a raw file.) So, just as we used to do in the darkroom days, you can reprint the negative.

Anytime you use a proprietary file type to store a document you run the risk of not being able to open it if you dump the program it was created in. That's not unique to Adobe. But as with any other program, there are usually programs available to read or convert those files.

Adobe is absolutely unique in when you quit paying a month fee, you lose access to your IP in Photoshop, Illlustrator, or AE. Autodesk still lets you use autocad, Revit and 3DS max, Maxon let’s you use C4D, Skethcup let’s you sketchupC and on and on and on.

No shit there’s other ways around it, but WHY would I want to go dig up some 3rd party software for my professionally created work when I’ve paid thousands now of dollars in Software costs over the last decade? It’s absolute nonesense that adobe does this. Paying an extortion fee may work for you, it doesn’t work for me and thousands now of others. I’m not going to let Adobe hold me by the balls to access my art.
 

Talys

Canon R5
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,107
406
Vancouver, BC
daphins said:
Adobe is absolutely unique in when you quit paying a month fee, you lose access to your IP in Photoshop, Illlustrator, or AE. Autodesk still lets you use autocad, Revit and 3DS max, Maxon let’s you use C4D, Skethcup let’s you sketchupC and on and on and on.

No S____ there’s other ways around it, but WHY would I want to go dig up some 3rd party software for my professionally created work when I’ve paid thousands now of dollars in Software costs over the last decade? It’s absolute nonesense that adobe does this. Paying an extortion fee may work for you, it doesn’t work for me and thousands now of others. I’m not going to let Adobe hold me by the balls to access my art.

I get why some people don't like subscription software, but what you're saying is untrue.

1. There are MANY companies with subscription software. On most of them, you have reduced or zero functionality if you cease your subscription. Examples:

- Microsoft Office 365
- Fonts.com (when you stop subscribing, SkyFonts removes all your fonts)
- Many accounting packages have a subscription version, from QuickBooks to Dynamics
- Cloud-based, Hosted Email
- MSDN/Visual Studio subscriptions
- Services like DropBox, OneDrive and iCloud beyond the free storage limits turn read-only when your subscription expires


2. There are programs other than Photoshop that can open PSDs, as has been previously posted.

3. There are programs other than Lightroom/Photoshop which aren't subscriber, that can open DNGs. If it's important to have continuity post-subscription, work in DNGs or TIFFs instead of CR2s. And you can still open your (original) CR2s, TIFFs and all that anyhow, PLUS you can view and print your LR modified RAWs.

4. Nobody is blackmailing you. If you're a user of an old version of Photoshop/Lightroom, it hasn't stopped working, and if you aren't, nobody is forcing to use PS/LR. Extortion would be if Adobe said, "Give us money every month or your fully licensed PS/LR will stop working!"

5. The irony is, at the price that PS/LR cost now as a subscription product, it no longer costs thousands of dollars a decade. In fact, you get TWO copies of each, with all the new versions, for just $1,200 in 10 years. In buy-it-and-own-it model, you got 1 copy of photoshop for $600, and you'd be forced to upgrade if you wanted it to work properly in a new operating system, with 64-bit, new plugins, or whatever.
 

AlanF

Stay at home
CR Pro
Aug 16, 2012
8,695
11,720
Talys said:
1. There are MANY companies with subscription software. On most of them, you have reduced or zero functionality if you cease your subscription. Examples:

- Microsoft Office 365
- Fonts.com (when you stop subscribing, SkyFonts removes all your fonts)
- Many accounting packages have a subscription version, from QuickBooks to Dynamics
- Cloud-based, Hosted Email
- MSDN/Visual Studio subscriptions
- Services like DropBox, OneDrive and iCloud beyond the free storage limits turn read-only when your subscription expires

There are crucial differences that render your argument by analogy dubious - in some of those examples cloud access is an essential feature without which the product could not work, in others you have the option of downloading to local-based software, but with Adobe the cloud it is an unnecessary imposition to force you to use it. DropBox, OneDrive and iCloud have to provide continuous cloud service so you can upload and access your files anywhere and they have to maintain their huge servers. With most Office 365 plans, you're able to download and install full versions of Microsoft Office programs like Word, Excel, and PowerPoint on your PC, Mac, or mobile device. I don't know every e-mail package, but all the cloud ones I use download to my laptop and desktops. Adobe could provide a downloadable version, as in the past, that you can use without being connected to the internet and not require any storage on the cloud.
 

unfocused

EOS-1D X Mark III
Jul 20, 2010
6,327
3,875
68
Springfield, IL
www.mgordoncommunications.com
AlanF said:
...Adobe could provide a downloadable version, as in the past, that you can use without being connected to the internet and not require any storage on the cloud.

How do you think Adobe CC works? You download it and it resides on your computer. You need to connect to the internet occasionally, but that's only so they can renew the subscription, same as any other subscription software. Adobe throws in some free cloud storage but you don't have to use it.
 

Orangutan

EOS 5D Mark IV
Sep 25, 2010
2,140
3
AlanF said:
Adobe could provide a downloadable version, as in the past, that you can use without being connected to the internet and not require any storage on the cloud.

That is the case right now: you can be off the Internet for a number of months at a time and your CC will continue to function.

My objections to the subscription model are fairly simple:

* I don't want an ongoing relationship with the vendor -- I want to make a purchase and be done.

* Adobe has a dominant position (though not a monopoly) in this market so the subscription model relieves them of pressure to add features soon. It also gives them the freedom to increase prices without bound since you can't just defer your next purchase to safe some money.


If you're a pro the subscription makes sense. Otherwise, not so much.
 

AlanF

Stay at home
CR Pro
Aug 16, 2012
8,695
11,720
unfocused said:
AlanF said:
...Adobe could provide a downloadable version, as in the past, that you can use without being connected to the internet and not require any storage on the cloud.

How do you think Adobe CC works? You download it and it resides on your computer. You need to connect to the internet occasionally, but that's only so they can renew the subscription, same as any other subscription software. Adobe throws in some free cloud storage but you don't have to use it.

What I meant is that, for DropBox, it is essential to be able to use the cloud and for your data to remain on it for continuous access, but it is not essential for Adobe-type software. Accordingly, for DropBox, you have to rent space on their cloud, but that should not be so for Adobe.
 

unfocused

EOS-1D X Mark III
Jul 20, 2010
6,327
3,875
68
Springfield, IL
www.mgordoncommunications.com
AlanF said:
unfocused said:
AlanF said:
...Adobe could provide a downloadable version, as in the past, that you can use without being connected to the internet and not require any storage on the cloud.

How do you think Adobe CC works? You download it and it resides on your computer. You need to connect to the internet occasionally, but that's only so they can renew the subscription, same as any other subscription software. Adobe throws in some free cloud storage but you don't have to use it.

What I meant is that, for DropBox, it is essential to be able to use the cloud and for your data to remain on it for continuous access, but it is not essential for Adobe-type software. Accordingly, for DropBox, you have to rent space on their cloud, but that should not be so for Adobe.

I guess I'm still not understanding your point. DropBox is for renting storage space. I don't know if they own their own servers or if they just rent them from a server farm, but essentially, all you get with these storage solutions is some space to store your files and some basic file software to store and access those files.

Adobe is renting you some sophisticated software for photo editing, desktop publishing, web development, video editing, etc. depending on what plan you choose. They are two very different animals.

Honestly, I don't know what will happen to my files when I quit subscribing to DropBox, but I'm quite certain they aren't going to leave my files on their server indefinitely once my subscription expires.

Adobe is never going to do anything to my files, as they live on my computer or on portable storage devices. As long as I have access to a software program that will read my files, I'm not at risk of losing anything (unless of course my hard drive crashes).

It is regrettable that Adobe chose the trendy "Cloud" name for their service, as it creates a lot a confusion in people's minds. Nothing resides in the "Cloud" with Adobe CC. They use the "Cloud" to update your programs and to verify your subscription, but that's about it.
 

Valvebounce

EOS R5
CR Pro
Apr 3, 2013
4,555
444
54
Isle of Wight
Hi Unfocused.
I think this makes more sense.
They use the "Cloud" Internet to update your programs and to verify your subscription, but that's about it.
I could care less about this argument, not a lot less and I'd have to really try hard but I'm sure I could care a little less. ;) I use DxO and am happy with what I can do with it! I just thought this might make it easier to understand.

Plus there is no "Cloud," it is just someone else's COMPUTER! :)

Cheers, Graham.
 

daphins

EOS M50
Jun 15, 2017
41
0
unfocused said:
AlanF said:
unfocused said:
AlanF said:
...Adobe could provide a downloadable version, as in the past, that you can use without being connected to the internet and not require any storage on the cloud.

How do you think Adobe CC works? You download it and it resides on your computer. You need to connect to the internet occasionally, but that's only so they can renew the subscription, same as any other subscription software. Adobe throws in some free cloud storage but you don't have to use it.

What I meant is that, for DropBox, it is essential to be able to use the cloud and for your data to remain on it for continuous access, but it is not essential for Adobe-type software. Accordingly, for DropBox, you have to rent space on their cloud, but that should not be so for Adobe.

I guess I'm still not understanding your point. DropBox is for renting storage space. I don't know if they own their own servers or if they just rent them from a server farm, but essentially, all you get with these storage solutions is some space to store your files and some basic file software to store and access those files.

Adobe is renting you some sophisticated software for photo editing, desktop publishing, web development, video editing, etc. depending on what plan you choose. They are two very different animals.

Honestly, I don't know what will happen to my files when I quit subscribing to DropBox, but I'm quite certain they aren't going to leave my files on their server indefinitely once my subscription expires.

Adobe is never going to do anything to my files, as they live on my computer or on portable storage devices. As long as I have access to a software program that will read my files, I'm not at risk of losing anything (unless of course my hard drive crashes).

It is regrettable that Adobe chose the trendy "Cloud" name for their service, as it creates a lot a confusion in people's minds. Nothing resides in the "Cloud" with Adobe CC. They use the "Cloud" to update your programs and to verify your subscription, but that's about it.

His point is addressing the previous comments about other subscription services being an apples to oranges comparison. Dropbox is a cloud-based service, and as such it requires access to the cloud. There is no other feasible way to do what they do. They have to provide the storage and on-going redundancy.

It is unnecessary for Adobe as they can (have have previously) created programs that don't require any extra cost on their part. The can literally create the software, and you use it until you don't want to, or your computer becomes obsolete.

A better comparison would be buying a physical Western Digital external HD that requires you to pay an online subscription to have cloud backup, and if you stop the cloud subscription your external HD bricks. It would a stupid way of building in obsolescence, and nobody would stand for it, which is essentially what Adobe did.

Adobe CC has absolutely no benefits to my work. I don't use the online storage, I don't want them to push automatic updates to me (they've bricked my files and cratered my performance with their "fixes" in the past), and I find their tablet tools to be utterly useless for my work. A fun gimmick if I ever wanted to use them, but i don't. They don't make any meaningful updates to the software, and I find it incredibly annoying when I get logged out and have to log back in (my work has CC and I go to remote areas).

They built in obsolescence and gave me absolutely no benefits. They just rake in money. As previously posted, there are OTHER companies that have successfully worked around this by allowing you to keep the last "version" that you paid for in perpetuity. Adobe is too damn greedy to do this and so we have these circular discussions on the inter-web.

Which is why I personally will never subscribe. I'll use CS6 until I don't have a PC that can run it, or use other software to do my work. At this point I have alternatives to almost every Adobe product that I use, and if it weren't for my office holding onto Adobe, I'd use other things full time.
 

Talys

Canon R5
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,107
406
Vancouver, BC
AlanF said:
There are crucial differences that render your argument by analogy dubious - in some of those examples cloud access is an essential feature without which the product could not work, in others you have the option of downloading to local-based software, but with Adobe the cloud it is an unnecessary imposition to force you to use it. DropBox, OneDrive and iCloud have to provide continuous cloud service so you can upload and access your files anywhere and they have to maintain their huge servers. With most Office 365 plans, you're able to download and install full versions of Microsoft Office programs like Word, Excel, and PowerPoint on your PC, Mac, or mobile device. I don't know every e-mail package, but all the cloud ones I use download to my laptop and desktops. Adobe could provide a downloadable version, as in the past, that you can use without being connected to the internet and not require any storage on the cloud.

With Office365, you can download an application to your PC, but when your subscription expires, you can't run it anymore, except in limited functionality mode (like read-only), which is exactly the same as lightroom.

Am I wrong? I believe that you can run Photoshop/Lightroom without an Internet connection for at least a few days before it comes up with an error. I'm positive I've used both in situations when I didn't have Internet, since I've gone cloud. But if I am in error, please correct me. Since I went fiber at home, I never lose Internet, and work has a backup Internet connection, so it's entirely possible that I' mistaken. I just recall a couple of years ago, during an 3-day extended power outage, doing post on PS/LR on generator power (with no Internet).

Office 365, just like Adobe, no longer provide an EXE or MSI. It's just a little stub program that does all the download. O365 is actually even worse; you MUST install every single Office application. So if it's Enterprise, you fill up a laptop with stuff you'll never use on the laptop, like Publisher, even if the only things you want are Word/Excel/Outlook.

Of course, with Office, you have the choice of buying a copy that never expires. But it's a bazillion dollars in comparison to a personal 365 license, which also lets you (legally) install on multiple PCs.

Other software like Autodesk stuff works the same way (if you get the subscription model).

I do get that I put some software on the list that is literally cloud-dependent (like iCloud). But please keep in mind that I was responding to a post that asserted that Adobe is the only company ever that has software that stops working when you stop paying them == extortion.

Incidentally, I think Fonts.com is a GOOD comparison. When you subscribe to Fonts.com, you pay $10 a month, and you have access to a bazillion fonts, all at the same time. You get to install them locally with SkyFonts as TTF/OTF/whatever. But when you stop paying, all those fonts magically disappear, and all your documents will still open -- but they won't have those fonts anymore.

Fonts.com is also MUCH MUCH cheaper than buying those fonts separately. If you're a graphics pro, or your company has a graphics department, that font bill can rack up something scary. The different varieties of just one font can pay for a 4 year subscription! If you want a premium extended family, like all the variants of Neue Helvetica, you could probably subscribe to fonts.com for decades. But of course, that won't expire :D

daphins said:
Adobe CC has absolutely no benefits to my work. I don't use the online storage, I don't want them to push automatic updates to me (they've bricked my files and cratered my performance with their "fixes" in the past), and I find their tablet tools to be utterly useless for my work. A fun gimmick if I ever wanted to use them, but i don't. They don't make any meaningful updates to the software, and I find it incredibly annoying when I get logged out and have to log back in (my work has CC and I go to remote areas).

They built in obsolescence and gave me absolutely no benefits. They just rake in money. As previously posted, there are OTHER companies that have successfully worked around this by allowing you to keep the last "version" that you paid for in perpetuity. Adobe is too damn greedy to do this and so we have these circular discussions on the inter-web.

Which is why I personally will never subscribe. I'll use CS6 until I don't have a PC that can run it, or use other software to do my work. At this point I have alternatives to almost every Adobe product that I use, and if it weren't for my office holding onto Adobe, I'd use other things full time.

All this is pretty fair. Adobe CC also has zero benefit to me.

But do keep in mind that Photoshop CS6 was horrifically unaffordable to hobbyists, unless they were getting educational pricing, and even then, it was far and away the best selling graphics software. The market share for graphics professionals is as close to 100% Photoshop as you can get, and Illustrator/InDesign is nearly at the same ubiquity.

Also remember that Photoshop was never meant as a hobbyist's tool, and that it's always been expensive.

You can't really expect Adobe to take a $700-$1000 product, give it to you for $120 a year, and then let you keep that version for perpetuity, right?

I really wish there were alternatives to Photoshop/Illustrator/InDesign too. Over the decades, I have tried as much as possible to support alternatives like CorelDraw, Quark Xpress and to a lesser extent various bitmap editors like GiMP and PaintShop Pro. I actually prefer Corel; I vastly prefer its Beziers. But it's a hopeless battle; I always end up buying the Adobe products because all it takes is one person that matters to ask, "Can I send you an AI/EPS/PSD?". They almost never open with 100% fidelity from another program, and never save and reopen properly.
 

Talys

Canon R5
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,107
406
Vancouver, BC
Orangutan said:
* I don't want an ongoing relationship with the vendor -- I want to make a purchase and be done.

I sympathize with this.

As a software developer by day, I fought the whole subscription thing for a very long time -- much longer than most of my peers. I finally got worn down and gave up. I still kind of despise it in principle, but have given up the fight, and am consoled that at least the software vendors have passed the savings of decreased piracy/increased legal copies down to me.

The first to go was Office, then Visual Studio.

Adobe lasted to CS6 for me. I only bought about every third version of Photoshop that Adobe came out with; it was CS2 before that. I still use CS6 for everything other than PS/LR.

I do genuinely believe that at $10/month, it's a whole lot cheaper to subscribe than to buy every 2-3 versions of PS/LR. Unlike Photoshop, which I'm content using very old versions of, Lightroom needs to be updated with new lens and camera profiles, and new RAW formats, and Adobe has made that a relatively difficult upgrade (unlike ACR).
 

AlanF

Stay at home
CR Pro
Aug 16, 2012
8,695
11,720
Talys said:
AlanF said:
There are crucial differences that render your argument by analogy dubious - in some of those examples cloud access is an essential feature without which the product could not work, in others you have the option of downloading to local-based software, but with Adobe the cloud it is an unnecessary imposition to force you to use it. DropBox, OneDrive and iCloud have to provide continuous cloud service so you can upload and access your files anywhere and they have to maintain their huge servers. With most Office 365 plans, you're able to download and install full versions of Microsoft Office programs like Word, Excel, and PowerPoint on your PC, Mac, or mobile device. I don't know every e-mail package, but all the cloud ones I use download to my laptop and desktops. Adobe could provide a downloadable version, as in the past, that you can use without being connected to the internet and not require any storage on the cloud.

With Office365, you can download an application to your PC, but when your subscription expires, you can't run it anymore, except in limited functionality mode (like read-only), which is exactly the same as lightroom.

Of course, with Office, you have the choice of buying a copy that never expires. But it's a bazillion dollars in comparison to a personal 365 license, which also lets you (legally) install on multiple PCs.

"bazillion dollars"? ? ? ? The official price for Microsoft Office 2016 lifetime licence directly from Microsoft is £120, and it is cheaper from some 3rd party sources (if you can trust them).

Free Office is compatible with Word and is completely free https://www.libreoffice.org/
(Reading the Office site, it seems that you can download a free older version of Word etc that do allow editing, but I haven't downloaded to check as I use Office 2011 already.)

We Mac users get Pages, Keynote and Numbers free, and can open Office documents and export to Office.

I get Microsoft Office 365 for free in my university, yes no charge, and Bill Gates has funded a fantastic graduate programme. Not only are you comparing "apples and pears" with the software retailing models, Microsoft are saints compared with Adobe!

Added later
The cloud version of Microsoft Office, is a pretty good deal as you get a terabyte of cloud storage per user for the 5 pack (up to 5 terabytes) for £79.99 p.a. or a single user for £59.99. So, you are getting the storage deal of DropBox plus sharing of files plus software.
 

daphins

EOS M50
Jun 15, 2017
41
0
Talys said:
AlanF said:
There are crucial differences that render your argument by analogy dubious - in some of those examples cloud access is an essential feature without which the product could not work, in others you have the option of downloading to local-based software, but with Adobe the cloud it is an unnecessary imposition to force you to use it. DropBox, OneDrive and iCloud have to provide continuous cloud service so you can upload and access your files anywhere and they have to maintain their huge servers. With most Office 365 plans, you're able to download and install full versions of Microsoft Office programs like Word, Excel, and PowerPoint on your PC, Mac, or mobile device. I don't know every e-mail package, but all the cloud ones I use download to my laptop and desktops. Adobe could provide a downloadable version, as in the past, that you can use without being connected to the internet and not require any storage on the cloud.

With Office365, you can download an application to your PC, but when your subscription expires, you can't run it anymore, except in limited functionality mode (like read-only), which is exactly the same as lightroom.

Am I wrong? I believe that you can run Photoshop/Lightroom without an Internet connection for at least a few days before it comes up with an error. I'm positive I've used both in situations when I didn't have Internet, since I've gone cloud. But if I am in error, please correct me. Since I went fiber at home, I never lose Internet, and work has a backup Internet connection, so it's entirely possible that I' mistaken. I just recall a couple of years ago, during an 3-day extended power outage, doing post on PS/LR on generator power (with no Internet).

Office 365, just like Adobe, no longer provide an EXE or MSI. It's just a little stub program that does all the download. O365 is actually even worse; you MUST install every single Office application. So if it's Enterprise, you fill up a laptop with stuff you'll never use on the laptop, like Publisher, even if the only things you want are Word/Excel/Outlook.

Of course, with Office, you have the choice of buying a copy that never expires. But it's a bazillion dollars in comparison to a personal 365 license, which also lets you (legally) install on multiple PCs.

Other software like Autodesk stuff works the same way (if you get the subscription model).

I do get that I put some software on the list that is literally cloud-dependent (like iCloud). But please keep in mind that I was responding to a post that asserted that Adobe is the only company ever that has software that stops working when you stop paying them == extortion.

Incidentally, I think Fonts.com is a GOOD comparison. When you subscribe to Fonts.com, you pay $10 a month, and you have access to a bazillion fonts, all at the same time. You get to install them locally with SkyFonts as TTF/OTF/whatever. But when you stop paying, all those fonts magically disappear, and all your documents will still open -- but they won't have those fonts anymore.

Fonts.com is also MUCH MUCH cheaper than buying those fonts separately. If you're a graphics pro, or your company has a graphics department, that font bill can rack up something scary. The different varieties of just one font can pay for a 4 year subscription! If you want a premium extended family, like all the variants of Neue Helvetica, you could probably subscribe to fonts.com for decades. But of course, that won't expire :D

daphins said:
Adobe CC has absolutely no benefits to my work. I don't use the online storage, I don't want them to push automatic updates to me (they've bricked my files and cratered my performance with their "fixes" in the past), and I find their tablet tools to be utterly useless for my work. A fun gimmick if I ever wanted to use them, but i don't. They don't make any meaningful updates to the software, and I find it incredibly annoying when I get logged out and have to log back in (my work has CC and I go to remote areas).

They built in obsolescence and gave me absolutely no benefits. They just rake in money. As previously posted, there are OTHER companies that have successfully worked around this by allowing you to keep the last "version" that you paid for in perpetuity. Adobe is too damn greedy to do this and so we have these circular discussions on the inter-web.

Which is why I personally will never subscribe. I'll use CS6 until I don't have a PC that can run it, or use other software to do my work. At this point I have alternatives to almost every Adobe product that I use, and if it weren't for my office holding onto Adobe, I'd use other things full time.

All this is pretty fair. Adobe CC also has zero benefit to me.

But do keep in mind that Photoshop CS6 was horrifically unaffordable to hobbyists, unless they were getting educational pricing, and even then, it was far and away the best selling graphics software. The market share for graphics professionals is as close to 100% Photoshop as you can get, and Illustrator/InDesign is nearly at the same ubiquity.

Also remember that Photoshop was never meant as a hobbyist's tool, and that it's always been expensive.

You can't really expect Adobe to take a $700-$1000 product, give it to you for $120 a year, and then let you keep that version for perpetuity, right?

I really wish there were alternatives to Photoshop/Illustrator/InDesign too. Over the decades, I have tried as much as possible to support alternatives like CorelDraw, Quark Xpress and to a lesser extent various bitmap editors like GiMP and PaintShop Pro. I actually prefer Corel; I vastly prefer its Beziers. But it's a hopeless battle; I always end up buying the Adobe products because all it takes is one person that matters to ask, "Can I send you an AI/EPS/PSD?". They almost never open with 100% fidelity from another program, and never save and reopen properly.

That's the thing though, I'm not a hobbyist and I owned the Suites from CS3 Design & Web Premium, CS5.5, & CS6 Production Premiums. The cost has drastically gone UP for using this software, while arguably the product has evolved very little.

It cost me $950 to upgrade from CS3 to CS5.5. CS3 came out in 2007, CS4 came out in 2008, CS 5 came out in 2010, and CS5.5 came out in 2011.

CS3 to 5.5 was a legitimate upgrade with new tools. It cost me $950 over the course of 4 years ($237.5/year)

Current cost of Adobe CC to access the applications in CS3 & 5.5 $539.89/year

The cost of my software nearly doubled if you don't own the Master Collection. Now granted, this is ignoring the cost of upgrading from CS3-CS4, but that's the point. CS4 was a train wreck with little functional upgrades, but huge performance hits in the software. There's a reason it did poorly and people didn't buy it. At either rate, on a bi-annual release schedule with $800 upgrades, the cost would still be significantly less than the current CC subscription cost. I don't have the specific numbers anymore, but when the shift to CC was announced, it was clear that the only people that saw a price "benefit" were people who owned the Master Collection. Everyone else was paying quite a bit more.

Autodesk as you mentioned has a subscription service. They're different from Adobe in that when you cancel your subscription, you still get access to the last version you subscribed to, which is logical. Subscribe from 2008-2017 and cancel your subscription, you have 2017 in perpetuity. This is important, because some of us have projects that require we be able to access and edit our work for years beyond when a contract expires. An architect needs to carry liability insurance for 7 years on built projects. Under current CC operations, they had have to pay 7 years of CC fee's (whatever Adobe decides those are) beyond their retirement date to meet their legal obligations.

I'm not against subscriptions, I'm against companies making the arbitrary decision to brick software. It's a profit driven decision, and takes away the rights of consumers to access their intellectual property.
 

unfocused

EOS-1D X Mark III
Jul 20, 2010
6,327
3,875
68
Springfield, IL
www.mgordoncommunications.com
As with all forum posts, there seem to be three types of people:

  • Those who are basically satisfied with a particular brand (Canon/Adobe/Apple/Whatever).
  • Those who have found a competitor they like better and moved on.
  • Those who want a particular brand to make and sell a product under terms that they dictate and with features they want and at a price that is less than the market dictates.

If you fall into category three, it might be a good idea to critically evaluate your own position, because it is usually unrealistic.

I'm not thrilled with the subscription model. But, I can accept that it is the way we will purchases most software in the future.

The way I look at it is, if for $50 a month, Canon would give me unlimited use of a 1DX II, every lens Canon makes, every flash Canon makes and even a 7DII or 5DIV when I wanted, I'd happily turn the equipment back in when my subscription ran out.

I really have a hard time arguing with the value proposition of Adobe's subscription, even if I only use a tiny fraction of what they provide me. Would it be nice if it cost less. Of course. But then, I wish every camera and lens Canon makes would cost less.
 

Talys

Canon R5
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,107
406
Vancouver, BC
AlanF said:
"bazillion dollars"? ? ? ? The official price for Microsoft Office 2016 lifetime licence directly from Microsoft is £120, and it is cheaper from some 3rd party sources (if you can trust them).

Free Office is compatible with Word and is completely free https://www.libreoffice.org/
(Reading the Office site, it seems that you can download a free older version of Word etc that do allow editing, but I haven't downloaded to check as I use Office 2011 already.)

We Mac users get Pages, Keynote and Numbers free, and can open Office documents and export to Office.

I get Microsoft Office 365 for free in my university, yes no charge, and Bill Gates has funded a fantastic graduate programme. Not only are you comparing "apples and pears" with the software retailing models, Microsoft are saints compared with Adobe!

Added later
The cloud version of Microsoft Office, is a pretty good deal as you get a terabyte of cloud storage per user for the 5 pack (up to 5 terabytes) for £79.99 p.a. or a single user for £59.99. So, you are getting the storage deal of DropBox plus sharing of files plus software.

I said, bazillions of dollars in relation to the cloud offering.

If you want a permanent license to the main Office365 applications: Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook, Access, and you're NOT looking at special pricing (educational, partner, etc.), the price is many hundreds of dollars. I haven't bought one either personally or at work since 2013, so I won't guess, but I know the open license price is very unattractive compared to Office365.

With the exception of Partners, you cannot legally use any of the discounted Office licenses (Home, Education, etc) for business. I assume in the calculation that one is not illegally using a discounted license (like using academic for business), because that's like saying, "well, the pirated version is free".

Free Office is a web-based, pale shadow of the desktop applications. Almost no serious business uses it except in the most fleeting of ways, like to view a PowerPoint on a laptop that doesn't have PowerPoint installed. It's like saying, well, Photoshop Express is cheap!

Edit -

Okay, I looked up some real prices (sorry, they're in Canadian dollars). Source: Microsoft Store.

For Word Excel PowerPoint OneNote Outlook Publisher Access:
For personal: 5 computers, $100 / year = $20 / pc / year
For business: 5 computers, $126 / year = $25 / pc / year

To buy it:

Office Home & Personal: Word Excel PowerPoint OneNote - $150 for 1 PC (That's missing a LOT of stuff)
Office Professional: Essentially the same as O365: $400 for 1 PC.

So, in an apples-to-apples, if you're using Office for business purposes the choice is $2000 for 5 PCs or $126 for 5 PCs, a factor of nearly 16x. Even for Personal, it's a much better deal to subscribe.

Yes, to me, that's bazillions!
 

Talys

Canon R5
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,107
406
Vancouver, BC
unfocused said:
I'm not thrilled with the subscription model. But, I can accept that it is the way we will purchases most software in the future.

The way I look at it is, if for $50 a month, Canon would give me unlimited use of a 1DX II, every lens Canon makes, every flash Canon makes and even a 7DII or 5DIV when I wanted, I'd happily turn the equipment back in when my subscription ran out.

Not a bad comparison. I would happily pay $50/month for as long as I'm engaged in photography to rent Canon's top-of-the-line camera :)

I'm pretty much like you. I am not thrilled about the subscription model either, but accept it as the format for most software purchases in the future. It is much cheaper at the end of the day for software that's important to me, and it totally falls apart for software that I hardly ever use (and upgrade very infrequently).
 

AlanF

Stay at home
CR Pro
Aug 16, 2012
8,695
11,720
Talys said:
AlanF said:
"bazillion dollars"? ? ? ? The official price for Microsoft Office 2016 lifetime licence directly from Microsoft is £120, and it is cheaper from some 3rd party sources (if you can trust them).

Free Office is compatible with Word and is completely free https://www.libreoffice.org/
(Reading the Office site, it seems that you can download a free older version of Word etc that do allow editing, but I haven't downloaded to check as I use Office 2011 already.)

We Mac users get Pages, Keynote and Numbers free, and can open Office documents and export to Office.

I get Microsoft Office 365 for free in my university, yes no charge, and Bill Gates has funded a fantastic graduate programme. Not only are you comparing "apples and pears" with the software retailing models, Microsoft are saints compared with Adobe!

Added later
The cloud version of Microsoft Office, is a pretty good deal as you get a terabyte of cloud storage per user for the 5 pack (up to 5 terabytes) for £79.99 p.a. or a single user for £59.99. So, you are getting the storage deal of DropBox plus sharing of files plus software.

I said, bazillions of dollars in relation to the cloud offering.

If you want a permanent license to the main Office365 applications: Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook, Access, and you're NOT looking at special pricing (educational, partner, etc.), the price is many hundreds of dollars. I haven't bought one either personally or at work since 2013, so I won't guess, but I know the open license price is very unattractive compared to Office365.

You don't have to guess, just visit https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/b/office
The US price for single home use, NOT special pricing (educational, partner, etc.), is $149.99 for a lifetime licence compared with $69.99 p.a. for cloud use. $149.99 is not "many hundreds of dollars". Is 149.9/(69.99xn years) bazillions of dollars? After 2 years, the ratio becomes less than one.
 

Talys

Canon R5
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,107
406
Vancouver, BC
AlanF said:
You don't have to guess, just visit https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/b/office
The US price for single home use, NOT special pricing (educational, partner, etc.), is $149.99 for a lifetime licence compared with $69.99 p.a. for cloud use. $149.99 is not "many hundreds of dollars". Is 149.9/(69.99xn years) bazillions of dollars? After 2 years, the ratio becomes less than one.

That is a comparison of apples to apple wedges.

Office Home includes 1 copy of Word, Excel PowerPoint, and OneNote which may be activated once, on a single PC.

Office Professional includes Word, Excel, PowerPoint, OneNote, Outlook, Access, and Publisher, which may also be used only on a single PC (it's also much more expensive, at CAD$400).

Office 365 includes the same applications as Office Professional. And you can install it on 5 PCs. You can even relicense them to different PCs, like Photoshop/Lightroom on CC, which you cannot do when you purchase the desktop copies. Just like PS/LR, you can go and install it on all your of your PCs and laptops, even if you own 10. You can just have 5 (or 2 in the case of Adobe) activated at once.

Also: if you're a professional photographer, for instance, and you want to use legally licensed software, you must purchase a business copy of Office. There is a $230 single PC option that includes Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and Outlook, if you need neither Publisher nor Access. However: it is still 1 PC. To get it up to 5 activations is still almost $1,000, and you still can't move it from one machine to another.

Don't take it from me that it's a good deal, take it from Microsoft. Their O365 sales have skyrocketed. It's wildly popular... because it's a much better deal than purchasing the standalone software. For many small businesses, it's also the difference between using legal software and piracy.

Anyways, my original point is totally lost in this, which is that Adobe is neither unique in its licensing practices nor extortive in its pricing. PS/LR for $10 / month is cheap as a professional-grade piece of graphics software. If you can't afford that, or if your use doesn't justify it, use something else.
 

AlanF

Stay at home
CR Pro
Aug 16, 2012
8,695
11,720
You have strayed from the key point of the objections. If you decide to stop paying the ransom money to Adobe, you no longer have access to process your files. If you stop paying for Word, Excel or Powerpoint, you can buy a stand alone licence for your PC or Mac for far less than many hundred or a bazillion relative dollars and continue working. Or, you can process them free with readily available gratis software. That is the nub of the objections to the Adobe model.