Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?

Don Haines

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Jun 4, 2012
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jayphotoworks said:
neuroanatomist said:
jayphotoworks said:
...the AF is exceptionally fast and like the reviews say, it is reactive because it doesn't have to be predictive with absolutely no blackout. You can't fully grasp that...

So you're saying the a9 has absolutely no shutter lag? Even though Imaging Resource measured it at over 200 ms? Or are you saying that moving subjects don't move over the course of 2/10 of a second? You're right, I can't fully grasp that.

I wasn't talking about the shutter lag, I was talking about the viewfinder blackout. There is none on the A9. On any OVF DSLR, there is the constant movement of the mirror. 60ms on the 1DX series and 125ms on the 5D series.

Remember though, that number is the aggregate time for the mirror to both open and close.... and the pattern is not symmetrical as it takes the mirror less time to flip out of the way than it does to return. This would make the delay caused by the mirror to be 30ms (or less) on the 1DX.

So you push the shutter, the camera does AF and metering (non-deterministic amount of delay), then the shutter starts moving and 30ms (or slightly less) later the exposure starts. At the end of the exposure, the mirror starts to return and it takes 30ms (or slightly more) for the mirror to return. However, the camera is not sitting there waiting and doing nothing while the mirror returns, it is reading the sensor, processing the image, and storing it to memory and then transferring the image to card(s)..... which probably consumes most (or more) of that 30ms mirror return time.

And the A9? It still takes time to read the sensor, and it also takes time to process the images afterwards... Mirrorless may not offer as much speed advantage as one first thinks....

That said, I have a mirrorless P/S camera that will crank out 100FPS, but at a very reduced resolution. I think that it is safe to say that a sensor can be read in 10ms or under, but the real bottleneck seems to be processing data and storing it....

Things are never simple in a complex system.
 
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timmy_650

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If you live closer to a big city you might be able to find a day where they are demoing camera. When I lived in Sacramento the local camera store got the major camera brands to demo their gear for free at the zoo. I love playing with new gear.
I used the A7rII and liked it. (I normal shoot a Canon 6D) It was nice with the smaller lenses but if you put an F/2.8, I didn't care for it. It was nice to go from a 5Dm4 with a 100-400mkII to an A7rII with a 70-200 F4 weight wise. There was things the camera did which annoyed me but was probably just settings like every picture I took it would show it to me in the view finder, which was nice when nothing was moving but really annoying when you were tracking something.
Before I used Sony I really wanted one but after, I didn't care for the system. If I didn't have any money into a system. I might choose sony but to switch over, it isn't worth it to me.
The thing I learned that day is all the new camera out there are great and I was kinda shocked how hard it was to tell files apart when just scrolling though them. That was comparing micro 4/3 systems, APS-C, full frame from 20mp to 50mp.
 
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neuroanatomist

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jayphotoworks said:
neuroanatomist said:
jayphotoworks said:
...the AF is exceptionally fast and like the reviews say, it is reactive because it doesn't have to be predictive with absolutely no blackout. You can't fully grasp that...

So you're saying the a9 has absolutely no shutter lag? Even though Imaging Resource measured it at over 200 ms? Or are you saying that moving subjects don't move over the course of 2/10 of a second? You're right, I can't fully grasp that.

I wasn't talking about the shutter lag, I was talking about the viewfinder blackout. There is none on the A9. On any OVF DSLR, there is the constant movement of the mirror. 60ms on the 1DX series and 125ms on the 5D series.

Evidently you don't know what you were talking about. You stated, "...the AF is exceptionally fast...because it doesn't have to be predictive," and attributed that to the lack of VF blackout. But the a9 doesn't capture an image at a zero delay from achieving focus. If it's not using predictive AF, moving subjects will be frequently out of focus. So, which is it – does the a9 use predictive AF, or does it miss shots of moving subjects?

Incidentally, the a9 takes a minimum of 20 ms from shutter press to image capture, with electronic first shutter and no focusing. The 1D X takes a mimimum of 36 ms to do that, because of the mirror movement. But per Imaging Resource testing, from center point AF to image capture is 216 ms on the a9, whereas through the VF on the 5DIV it's 165 ms, and a mere 85 ms on the 1D X II. So, your claim of 'exceptionally fast AF' on the a9 is dead wrong by comparison to the Canon 5- and 1-series AF.

It's great when people are enthused about something, but it's just sad when their enthusiasm blinds them to factual reality.
 
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Went to Best Buy during lunch and had 10 minutes to play with display a7Rii

It is small in hand which can be a plus (mated to a small prime) and minus (with a 100-400)
Pretty intuitive except for figuring out how to focus - couldn’t figure out how to get focus points to show or selected. The a7rIII will have a joystick which I use on the 5DmkIII and love
Putting on lens was the same - zoom was backwards

Might be worth a buy after early reviews are posted and reveal any issues
 
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eoren1 said:
Shoot landscapes/seascapes and sell prints.
Also shoot 10 and 12 year old kids playing sports - indoor basketball, dance as well as lacrosse, soccer

Things I wish I had with my Canon are a bigger sensor with more DR (I print 20x30+ not infrequently and have to enlarge in software before sending to the lab). I briefly considered the 5DS R but FPS was way too low for kids sports. My 5D mk III is barely able to catch decisive moments in faster sports.

Just curious why you seem to have ruled out the 5D MkIV? Its certainly a very capable action camera with excellent AF for kids sports. Based on the reviews of the A9 and A7rII, it doesn't appear Sony has caught up with Canon and Nikon DSLR's in the AF area yet, regardless of published specs. Getting close, but still behind as far as I can see.

Sony has a 42mp sensor vs. 30 for the MkIV, but that's really not a huge difference in your final print size. The MkIV's dynamic range is very close to the the Sony A7rII, so I assume it will be very close to the III as well.

eoren1 said:
With the Sony a7Riii specs now official, I have to admit to being very intrigued - especially with their 24-105 which is my workhorse lens.

Canon, Sigma, and Nikon (24-120) haven't succeeded yet in making an optically excellent 24-105/120 yet. Will Sony's be better? Time will tell.
 
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jayphotoworks

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neuroanatomist said:
jayphotoworks said:
neuroanatomist said:
jayphotoworks said:
...the AF is exceptionally fast and like the reviews say, it is reactive because it doesn't have to be predictive with absolutely no blackout. You can't fully grasp that...

So you're saying the a9 has absolutely no shutter lag? Even though Imaging Resource measured it at over 200 ms? Or are you saying that moving subjects don't move over the course of 2/10 of a second? You're right, I can't fully grasp that.

I wasn't talking about the shutter lag, I was talking about the viewfinder blackout. There is none on the A9. On any OVF DSLR, there is the constant movement of the mirror. 60ms on the 1DX series and 125ms on the 5D series.

Evidently you don't know what you were talking about. You stated, "...the AF is exceptionally fast...because it doesn't have to be predictive," and attributed that to the lack of VF blackout. But the a9 doesn't capture an image at a zero delay from achieving focus. If it's not using predictive AF, moving subjects will be frequently out of focus. So, which is it – does the a9 use predictive AF, or does it miss shots of moving subjects?

Incidentally, the a9 takes a minimum of 20 ms from shutter press to image capture, with electronic first shutter and no focusing. The 1D X takes a mimimum of 36 ms to do that, because of the mirror movement. But per Imaging Resource testing, from center point AF to image capture is 216 ms on the a9, whereas through the VF on the 5DIV it's 165 ms, and a mere 85 ms on the 1D X II. So, your claim of 'exceptionally fast AF' on the a9 is dead wrong by comparison to the Canon 5- and 1-series AF.

It's great when people are enthused about something, but it's just sad when their enthusiasm blinds them to factual reality.

I was expecting that you would try to position the interpretation in another direction, once you realize that yes, in fact all mirror based DSLRS have mirror blackout so that discussion will not yield itself in your favor, but let's look at exactly what you thought I said here:

"Evidently you don't know what you were talking about. You stated, "...the AF is exceptionally fast...because it doesn't have to be predictive," and attributed that to the lack of VF blackout. "


What I was originally said:

the AF is exceptionally fast and like the reviews say, it is reactive because it doesn't have to be predictive with absolutely no blackout. You can't fully grasp that


What I was trying to convey was:

a) The AF is exceptionally fast
AND
b) There is no blackout

I didn't say "the AF is exceptionally fast because there is no blackout." I purposely avoided that discussion, because mirror blackout doesn't have any impact on AF speed, it is simply objectively faster because the image is un-interrupted during burst shooting. This is also combined with the fact that the camera is able to track at 20fps which none of those other 2 cameras you mentioned can do.

In fact, all I was doing was validating what I read on dpreview from personal experiences using the camera in the field. I'd gladly take your advice as well, but since I haven't seen your review on this camera or any camera for that matter, I'll just have to take your word on it that the A9 is NOT exceptionally fast.

My main message here is that trying new products and technologies with enthusiasm after doing proper due diligence is the way to move forwards. I'm not obligated to stay with one manufacturer strictly due to brand loyalty.
 
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Mikehit

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jayphotoworks said:
What I was originally said:

the AF is exceptionally fast and like the reviews say, it is reactive because it doesn't have to be predictive with absolutely no blackout. You can't fully grasp that


What I was trying to convey was:

a) The AF is exceptionally fast
AND
b) There is no blackout

I didn't say "the AF is exceptionally fast because there is no blackout." I purposely avoided that discussion, because mirror blackout doesn't have any impact on AF speed, it is simply objectively faster because the image is un-interrupted during burst shooting. This is also combined with the fact that the camera is able to track at 20fps which none of those other 2 cameras you mentioned can do.

In fact, all I was doing was validating what I read on dpreview from personal experiences using the camera in the field. I'd gladly take your advice as well, but since I haven't seen your review on this camera or any camera for that matter, I'll just have to take your word on it that the A9 is NOT exceptionally fast.

My main message here is that trying new products and technologies with enthusiasm after doing proper due diligence is the way to move forwards. I'm not obligated to stay with one manufacturer strictly due to brand loyalty.

Without wanting to put words in Neuro's mouth, his thoughts echoed mine - that you claimed the AF is fast because it does not need to be predictive. Blackout or not, it still needs to predict where the subject will be (a) in the fraction of a second between you half-pressing the shutter and then firing the shutter, and (b) in the 1/20 sec between the shutter closing and opening it needs to know where the subject will move to in that 1/20 sec. Unless, of course you are saying that the camera effectively re-focuses from scratch every time the shutter re-opens in which case the first still applies because in a sequence predictive focussing will still be very important.
 
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neuroanatomist

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+1 Mikehit

jayphotoworks said:
What I was trying to convey was:

a) The AF is exceptionally fast
AND
b) There is no blackout

You failed.

When trying to convey independent concepts, you need to separate them. Try a comma, or put them in different sentences. Putting two concepts together in the same sentence linked by the word 'because' is not the right way to convey them separately.
 
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jayphotoworks

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Mikehit said:
jayphotoworks said:
What I was originally said:

the AF is exceptionally fast and like the reviews say, it is reactive because it doesn't have to be predictive with absolutely no blackout. You can't fully grasp that


What I was trying to convey was:

a) The AF is exceptionally fast
AND
b) There is no blackout

I didn't say "the AF is exceptionally fast because there is no blackout." I purposely avoided that discussion, because mirror blackout doesn't have any impact on AF speed, it is simply objectively faster because the image is un-interrupted during burst shooting. This is also combined with the fact that the camera is able to track at 20fps which none of those other 2 cameras you mentioned can do.

In fact, all I was doing was validating what I read on dpreview from personal experiences using the camera in the field. I'd gladly take your advice as well, but since I haven't seen your review on this camera or any camera for that matter, I'll just have to take your word on it that the A9 is NOT exceptionally fast.

My main message here is that trying new products and technologies with enthusiasm after doing proper due diligence is the way to move forwards. I'm not obligated to stay with one manufacturer strictly due to brand loyalty.

Without wanting to put words in Neuro's mouth, his thoughts echoed mine - that you claimed the AF is fast because it does not need to be predictive. Blackout or not, it still needs to predict where the subject will be (a) in the fraction of a second between you half-pressing the shutter and then firing the shutter, and (b) in the 1/20 sec between the shutter closing and opening it needs to know where the subject will move to in that 1/20 sec. Unless, of course you are saying that the camera effectively re-focuses from scratch every time the shutter re-opens in which case the first still applies because in a sequence predictive focussing will still be very important.

The A9 is calculating AF/AE at 60hz, or a calculation every 16.7ms. It might be simply using a brute-force approach in getting that next AF point/points rather than using a more traditional predictive approach which better suits an AF module and mirror setup. I felt that the camera just pops things into focus the minute it hits an AF point regardless of pattern or process. Like mentioned elsewhere, it avoids predictive errors this way and doesn't need specific af profiles to setup prior to certain sports/events.
 
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jayphotoworks

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neuroanatomist said:
+1 Mikehit

jayphotoworks said:
What I was trying to convey was:

a) The AF is exceptionally fast
AND
b) There is no blackout

You failed.

When trying to convey independent concepts, you need to separate them. Try a comma, or put them in different sentences. Putting two concepts together in the same sentence linked by the word 'because' is not the right way to convey them separately.

I never used the word because in my original post, take a look again.

The AF is exceptionally fast and like the reviews say, it is reactive because it doesn't have to be predictive with absolutely no blackout.

But what I should have said was:

The AF is exceptionally fast and like the reviews say, it is reactive because it doesn't have to be predictive. There is also no VF blackout.

I understand that going against Canon products on a Canon forum is not going to net me a pass on my English or grammar here. Fair enough.
 
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neuroanatomist

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jayphotoworks said:
I never used the word because in my original post, take a look again.

The AF is exceptionally fast and like the reviews say, it is reactive because it doesn't have to be predictive with absolutely no blackout.

Can you actually compose pictures? I ask, because you appear to be blind. :eek: 8)
 
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Mikehit

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jayphotoworks said:
I understand that going against Canon products on a Canon forum is not going to net me a pass on my English or grammar here. Fair enough.

No-one really cares about you gong against Canon products. They really don't.
What people react to is false logic. Like a camera not using predictive focussing.
 
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jayphotoworks

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Mikehit said:
jayphotoworks said:
I understand that going against Canon products on a Canon forum is not going to net me a pass on my English or grammar here. Fair enough.

No-one really cares about you gong against Canon products. They really don't.
What people react to is false logic. Like a camera not using predictive focussing.

I'm really not making this up myself at all.

The a9 takes the best parts of Sony's existing on-sensor phase detection autofocus systems and takes them up a notch. Indeed, without a mirror blocking the autofocus points and with 60 calculations every second, the camera doesn't really need to 'predict' the same way other flagships do; it can just react to the scene in near-real time.

This is Dpreview's account of the camera's behavior. Whether or not this camera is fully predictive or reactive, it is capturing 20fps, and those 20fps are mostly in focus when in comparison with top-shelf flagship DSLRs that aren't shooting at 20fps.
 
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Mikehit

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jayphotoworks said:
Mikehit said:
jayphotoworks said:
I understand that going against Canon products on a Canon forum is not going to net me a pass on my English or grammar here. Fair enough.

No-one really cares about you gong against Canon products. They really don't.
What people react to is false logic. Like a camera not using predictive focussing.

I'm really not making this up myself at all.

The a9 takes the best parts of Sony's existing on-sensor phase detection autofocus systems and takes them up a notch. Indeed, without a mirror blocking the autofocus points and with 60 calculations every second, the camera doesn't really need to 'predict' the same way other flagships do; it can just react to the scene in near-real time.

This is Dpreview's account of the camera's behavior. Whether or not this camera is fully predictive or reactive, it is capturing 20fps, and those 20fps are mostly in focus when in comparison with top-shelf flagship DSLRs that aren't shooting at 20fps.

So is this an official Sony wording, or is this DPR's assumption of what is happening?
I believe the the critical bit is the part I have highlighted in red - it suggests it does it differently, not that it does not do it at all. It reads to me like it calculates 60 times per second but what happens in the 1/60 second between calculations? I very much doubt the calculations will be done to coincide with the release time of the shutter.
 
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neuroanatomist

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jayphotoworks said:
I'm really not making this up myself at all.

The a9 takes the best parts of Sony's existing on-sensor phase detection autofocus systems and takes them up a notch. Indeed, without a mirror blocking the autofocus points and with 60 calculations every second, the camera doesn't really need to 'predict' the same way other flagships do; it can just react to the scene in near-real time.

This is Dpreview's account of the camera's behavior.

I'm really not making this up myself at all.

The earth is flat. The Round Earth doctrine is little more than an elaborate hoax.

This is the Flat Earth Society's account of the shape of the world.

Happy Quote Unreliable Internet Sources In Blue Text Day, everyone! ;D
 
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hne

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Jan 8, 2016
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ahsanford said:
Don Haines said:
Have you tried flash photography on the kids? It gets you more light to work with.....

For dedicated portraits, sure, but for just hanging out, travel, candids and so on, the flash overshadows the moment, makes it about me, etc. and I almost never use it.

- A

I use this contraption. Might get a few looks from other parents at the playground but boy are those pictures great!
 

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jayphotoworks

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neuroanatomist said:
jayphotoworks said:
I'm really not making this up myself at all.

The a9 takes the best parts of Sony's existing on-sensor phase detection autofocus systems and takes them up a notch. Indeed, without a mirror blocking the autofocus points and with 60 calculations every second, the camera doesn't really need to 'predict' the same way other flagships do; it can just react to the scene in near-real time.

This is Dpreview's account of the camera's behavior.

I'm really not making this up myself at all.

The earth is flat. The Round Earth doctrine is little more than an elaborate hoax.

This is the Flat Earth Society's account of the shape of the world.

Happy Quote Unreliable Internet Sources In Blue Text Day, everyone! ;D

All internet sources are inherently unreliable, but some bear more credibility than others. One can only perform their best due diligence based on the reviewers history. My perception of the AF system comes strictly from anecdotal experience, but in line with some of the more credible reviews out there. The editor at Dpreview has been reviewing and testing cameras for the last 9+ years, I'm sure his anecdotal experience might be somewhat more accurate than an armchair reviewer that doesn't even own or has ever shot on this camera.

Wouldn't you say so?
 
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