Blindly pre-order 5D4 - Why NOT

Diko

7 fps...
Apr 27, 2011
436
5
38
Sofia, Bulgaria
After some time has passed and more rumor details regarding the 5D4 appeared why am I ready to blindly pre-order 5D4? And why I believe some people shouldn't be upset with the rumored specs.

I think 5D4 is a decent time for an upgrade, but would you agree with my arguments?

Also feel free to consider it as a summary of my 5 years experience on this forum.

3 years ago I wrote here that CANON is listening to speculations and desires expressed in sites like CR. IMHO especially CR!
Diko said:
When one reads this whole topic, he/she would stay with the impression that everyone's happy with CANONs doings...
....
Better concentrate on what you WANT!
Not on EXPLAINING Canon's reasoning.

If I were from CANON's marketing dep. and read this here ... report that people ...acknowledge this and that issue... but are pretty, pretty happy - ergo could put the solution's R&D on this and that on a lower priority level for now.
Undoubtedly I believe this forum is a place which many people visit even without registering. Here opinions are created. A lot is learnt and many why's are being answered.

2 years later in March 2015 Canon's Managing Director and Chief Executive, Image Communication Products Operations - Masaya Maeda said:
We’re currently in the process of investigating, mainly to satisfy the needs of news media, and we have every intention of addressing this need in future products.
Many would say that CR is no NEWS MEDIA, but actually many bloggers and journalists come here as this is a good shortcut to learn how new CANON DSLR is being perceived. Ergo they write about it later on.

He also mentioned back then:
Personally, I think we’re slow as well. One of our themes now as a company is upon developing a new technology, to shorten the time between development and when that technology is introduced into a product. We need to shorten that time.

In September the same year he added:
Right now, we use both on-chip and off-chip, but recently I made the decision going forward to concentrate on the on-chip.
and
The intent is to increase the performance. In terms of cost, this may be a little negative, but in terms of the direction to take, this will make us more competitive.

The interviewer, Dave Etchells, explained:
Some have pointed to the use of off-chip A/D converters as contributing to lower dynamic range numbers for Canon sensors, when compared to those of Nikon and others in tests such as those published on DxOMark.com. Because separate A/D converters require transmitting analog signals from the image sensor to the converter, more electrical noise can enter the signal chain, resuting in higher noise floors. On-sensor A/D also enables massive parallelism in the A/D conversion, and thereby higher frame rates and possibly lower rolling shutter artifacts.
and
There was some speculation that Canon was locked out of this technology by patents held by Sony and others.

IMHO those additional production costs may be due to the SONY & CANON SENSOR (PATENT) PARTNERSHIP:
Sony will make them and they will have EXMOR technology, for Canon they will get the DualPixel AF. So it’s a patent exchange that helps both companies. Sony will still sell the sensors to Nikon, but only without the DualPixel technology.
However no matter if speculations or not. The results both on paper and in real life show a stable improvement on the above mentioned "future products" so far.

I. The results and the reasons why I am going to blindly pre-order it

1/ Increased DR in the current generation CMOS even according to DxOmark (1dx = 11.8 Evs VS 1Dx2 = 13.5 Evs & 80D = 13.2 Evs), who only took in consideration what was on sensor excluding the rest of circuitry thus rating previous generation Canon DSLRs much lower. I doubt that anyone expects from Canon to release its next iteration of the most successful DSLR line with less than those 13.somehting Evs.

2/ Increased resolution, which combined with better DR and increased ISO (please note "New noise reduction algorithm", let's hope it's before RAW output and not JPEG related only) will make IMHO a game changer, and a true value for its price DSLR body. Please note that a few innovations compared to 1Dx2 are in place. I wouldn't be surprised if Techradar change their mind after getting their hands on 5D4.

3/ True unseen innovation. Whatever people speculate DPRAW is twice the size of regular RAW (DPRAW: 66.9 Mb. vs RAW: 36.8 Mb.). That's for a reason.
The question that remains is if Canon will give license and share the know-how to operate to Adobe (LR, CR for PS usage) and Phase One (C1).

4/ And all the other little goodness: TimeLapse, finally an electronic leveling, GPS, WiFi, USB 3.0, 7 fps.

There's even 4k@4:2:2 and weird 720p@120fps Slow Mo. The first is awesome, but I doubt I will make such great use of it. And the latter which could be IMHO much much better.

I am still missing though:
- the "tilty flippy" display (super usefull for events)
- 1080P@240 fps or higher (if I could only utilize my Canon EF glass on my smartphone it woulnd't be that much of a problem)
- Voice notes attached to the image (It might be there, or could be added via firmware update or ML can provided)

II. And to all those people that needed more than:

1/ 7 fps. Go buy a 1Dx2 (14.0 fps) or 7D2 (10.0 fps) and shut up!

Back in December 2001 the first 1D had "Approx. 8 fps in high-speed continuous shooting drive mode".

And as Neuro pointed out the obvious:
neuroanatomist said:
I liked the suggestion that the 5DIII at 6 fps is "pretty damn slow". It's a helluva lot faster than a thumb...

windingstroke.jpg

For such fine granularity in capturing the moment I really believe that this either must be your job that pays your bills AND you are in action photography OR simply a whim for luxury treatment. Both deserve paying the extra dollar for 1Dx2 or committing the trade off for its smaller-in-sensor brother 7D2.

A third option is to buy NIKON D820 instead? Word has it it will have 153-point system that has 99 cross-type and 70-80 MPs. Can't find it, but someone claimed 14 fps as well. For me it's a pure overkill and besides all my glass is (for) Canon.

2/ Missing IBIS. No need since even a low-light fan like me will manage to handle shaking with the help of them 30Mps, ISO and good quality glass. And NO! For God's sake IS on BOTH Glass & Body will NOT make blur from shaking disappear. This ain't simple first grade math problem. It's complicated physics of light, where even Gravity matters.

3/ Stupid comparison with SONYNIKONPENTAXHASSELBLADPHASEONE. Screw it!

a) Sony had a huge benefit from their IMX161 CMOS MF, their IMX094 FF sensors and many other before that. It is damn good CMOS sensor vendor.

ortBZz.jpg


But others seem to catch up accroding to the: 2016 Chip World's predictions
There has been a steady evolution in the image sensor biz, with Sony leading the pack, and culminating in the deep-trench isolation between pixels in the Apple 6s/6s Plus camera. Sony has had a two year+ lead in stacking the sensor on top of the image processor and connecting the two with custom TSVs, but we now see OmniVision and Samsung with design wins using multiple versions of its new stacked chip products

b) Never-the-less however the only true competitor in the photography equipment still stays NIKON. And they don't seem to get ahead in sales. There must be a reason for that.
rrcphoto said:
rrcphoto said:
Interesting, is that canon now holds nearly a 50% of the overall marketshare.
...
1Q Canon - 40%, Nikon - 30%, all others - 30%
2Q Canon - 58%, Nikon - 28%, all others - 14%
...
between the two largest manufactures:
...
Canon - 49%
Nikon - 29%
Everyone else - 22% ...
Most probably as he also mentioned his source is CIPA.

6/ Waiting for 5D5. Skipping so much innovation on purpose is a total nonsense, because for me 5D3 had only a shy improvement in the main numbers at best with a few 1Dx stolen features for better sales even lacking WiFi. Actually not a bad camera, but not that good either. Because it didn't worth the price asked.

Both NIKON & CANON show trend of steady slowing pace on new model iteration releases.
No matter if it's for profit or lack of enough R&D reasons the truth is obvious!

NIKON:
umZKOP.png


CANON
PBjDvw.png


Probably 5D5 would be available somewhere around 2022. ;-) And that is ONLY if until then CANON doesn't decide to stop the series.

All that being said why would you blindly pre-order? Or why NOT. Would you upgrade your 5D3 or the new features aren't that attractive? Would you upgrade APS-H 1D Mark IV?
 

Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Mar 25, 2011
16,603
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There are some things to consider, and they depend entirely on your situation.

1. When you get the camera, Your editing software will likely not work with the CR2 files for a month or 6. Phase One, DXO, Adobe, ACDSEE, - only DPP will work fully. If you are a pro with a established work flow, it means the camera is just a toy while waiting.

2. Third Party Flash Units seem to have a way of needing firmware updates, same with the remote triggers.

3. New camera models usually break the reverse engineering of at least a few third party lenses, there is no way to know until the camera gets in your hands.

4. Accessories are usually not available, even Canon new accessories take a few months to be available. Third party items like L Brackets, grips, etc take time to design and develop, so more months of waiting.

So evaluate your situation, be prepared to set the camera to raw + jpeg or use DPP while waiting for your favorite photo editor to be updated for raw. If you use third party lenses, hope that they will still work with the new camera.
 

Diko

7 fps...
Apr 27, 2011
436
5
38
Sofia, Bulgaria
Maiaibing said:
Diko said:
why am I ready to blindly pre-order 5D4?

[...incredibly long rant...]
Trying to justify your choice to us after failing with your wife? :eek:

(Good luck with your choice!)
TL;DR kind of guy, now are you? And/or too hard for you to digest information? Don't worry, that Dyslexia thing is not that bad... after some time you'll get used to it.
 

Diko

7 fps...
Apr 27, 2011
436
5
38
Sofia, Bulgaria
Mt Spokane Photography said:
There are some things to consider, and they depend entirely on your situation.

1. When you get the camera, Your editing software will likely not work with the CR2 files for a month or 6. Phase One, DXO, Adobe, ACDSEE, - only DPP will work fully. If you are a pro with a established work flow, it means the camera is just a toy while waiting.

2. Third Party Flash Units seem to have a way of needing firmware updates, same with the remote triggers.

3. New camera models usually break the reverse engineering of at least a few third party lenses, there is no way to know until the camera gets in your hands.

4. Accessories are usually not available, even Canon new accessories take a few months to be available. Third party items like L Brackets, grips, etc take time to design and develop, so more months of waiting.

So evaluate your situation, be prepared to set the camera to raw + jpeg or use DPP while waiting for your favorite photo editor to be updated for raw. If you use third party lenses, hope that they will still work with the new camera.

Good points about the "blind" part. And yet I don't rely my income on that body.

As for:

1/ It is always like that. The question is if they would open the DPRAW to other software.
2/ Now this will be interesting, but it's not that much of income dependent.
3/ "break the reverse engineering of at least a few third party lenses" - could you please elaborate.
4/ I don't expect to need any accessories except for the grip at some point. As it seems most of the accessories I have would easily fit the new-old body.

I haven't used touch screen so far with any DSLR. Now hat would be something new for me.

Usually in the quarter after release an update is released. By that time I will be testing and experimenting with the body mainly.

By "blind" I wanted to stress that this iteration is better than the last one. Not in absolute way, but more like innovations added and value. And that in the last couple of years Canon failed to meet my (and many others) expectations, but since the beginning of 2015 things changed for the good.
 

Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
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Mar 25, 2011
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Diko said:
Mt Spokane Photography said:
There are some things to consider, and they depend entirely on your situation.

1. When you get the camera, Your editing software will likely not work with the CR2 files for a month or 6. Phase One, DXO, Adobe, ACDSEE, - only DPP will work fully. If you are a pro with a established work flow, it means the camera is just a toy while waiting.

2. Third Party Flash Units seem to have a way of needing firmware updates, same with the remote triggers.

3. New camera models usually break the reverse engineering of at least a few third party lenses, there is no way to know until the camera gets in your hands.

4. Accessories are usually not available, even Canon new accessories take a few months to be available. Third party items like L Brackets, grips, etc take time to design and develop, so more months of waiting.

So evaluate your situation, be prepared to set the camera to raw + jpeg or use DPP while waiting for your favorite photo editor to be updated for raw. If you use third party lenses, hope that they will still work with the new camera.


3/ "break the reverse engineering of at least a few third party lenses" - could you please elaborate.

What I am referring to is the firmware that resides in all electronic lenses and which communicates with the camera. Third party lens makers reverse engineer the communication protocols, but have no access to the actual capability that resides in the lenses.

Thus, nearly every major new Canon Camera which makes changes in autofocus or lens communication with the cameras is incompatible with a few third party lenses and they need updates to work. Several were updated after the 1DX II arrived, we have no way to know at this point if we will see issues, but if the past is any indicator, we will.

Some Examples:

http://www.canonrumors.com/sigma-firmware-updates-resolve-metering-issue-with-1d-x-mark-ii/

From Sigma:

Thank you for purchasing and using our products.

We would like to announce the availability of new firmware and support for the applicable lenses regarding the phenomenon that exposure of the image may not be accurate, which was announced on May 27th, 2016. This happens when some SIGMA interchangeable lenses for CANON are used on Canon EOS 1DX Mark II.

If you own the following applicable products, please refer to the information below and update the lens firmware accordingly.

Benefit of this firmware update
The lens firmware update corrects the phenomenon of some underexposure when the lenses listed below are used and either “Evaluative Metering” or “Center-weighted Average Metering” is selected in Metering Mode of the camera.

Applicable products
SIGMA 20mm F1.4 DG HSM | Art – Canon mount
SIGMA 35mm F1.4 DG HSM | Art – Canon mount
SIGMA 85mm F1.4 EX DG HSM – Canon mount

For customers who own the applicable products listed above, the lens firmware update will be provided free of charge. Please contact your nearest authorized subsidiary/distributors of SIGMA.

For customers who own the SIGMA USB DOCK, and either the SIGMA 20mm F1.4 DG HSM | Art Canon or the SIGMA 35mm F1.4 DG HSM | Art Canon, please update the lens firmware using SIGMA Optimization Pro.

We appreciate your continued support for our company and products.


Read more: http://www.canonrumors.com/sigma-firmware-updates-resolve-metering-issue-with-1d-x-mark-ii/#ixzz4I18H01mT



http://www.tamron-usa.com/about/updates_canon.php

"A notice regarding compatibility issue with
the EOS-1D X Mark II and availability of firmware update service (about AF functions on Live View mode)

Dear users and potential purchasers of Tamron interchangeable lenses for Canon.
Thank you for using Tamron products.

We wish to notify you that the AF functions of the following interchangeable lenses for Canon, which have been produced before May 11th, 2015 and have not been updated when there were the firmware update service announcements below, do not function in Live View mode when used on the EOS-1D X Mark II which went on sale on April 28th, 2016 in Japan.

*Please see the below links for the previous firmware update service announcements regarding the EOS Rebel T6s/EOS 760D (EOS 8000D) / the EOS Rebel T6i/ EOS 750D (EOS Kiss X8i), the EOS 5Ds / the EOS 5DsR, the EOS 80D, and the firmware update service for SP 150-600mm F/5-6.3 Di VC USD (Model A011) for panning shot.

http://www.tamron.co.jp/en/news/release_2015/0508_3.html
http://www.tamron.co.jp/en/news/release_2015/0508.html
http://www.tamron.co.jp/en/news/release_2015/0622_3.html
http://www.tamron.co.jp/en/news/release_2016/0406.html

We sincerely apologize to all users and potential purchasers for any inconvenience the issue may cause.

■ Affected models
Interchangeable lenses for Canon, which has been produced before May 11th

・SP 15-30mm F/2.8 Di VC USD (Model A012)
・SP 70-200mm F/2.8 Di VC USD (Model A009)
・SP 150-600mm F/5-6.3 Di VC USD (Model A011)
・SP 90mm F/2.8 Di MACRO 1:1 VC USD (Model F004)
・28-300mm F/3.5-6.3 Di VC PZD (Model A010)
・16-300mm F/3.5-6.3 Di II VC PZD MACRO (Model B016) "
 

Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Mar 25, 2011
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BTW, I'm not saying that you should hold off on buying one, just providing a list of issues that often cause grief to a few photographers who feel blindsided.

As long as you are aware of the potentials and have a work-around, by all means, grab one.
 
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IglooEater

EOS R
Nov 15, 2014
904
0
To answer your final question, if I had the money, I would absolutely pre-order one. Every new camera is better than the one it replaces, and would be astronomically better than my current rig. :)

On a side not, all the red and bold and
make your extensive article a real pain to read... :-/
 

rrcphoto

EOS R6
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
Diko said:
After some time has passed and more rumor details regarding the 5D4 appeared why am I ready to blindly pre-order 5D4?

snip. the only thing that went blindly is me, after trying to read your post.

btw, there has been no announcement and not even rumors of a "SONY & CANON SENSOR (PATENT) PARTNERSHIP"

not sure where you got that .. Sony made that sensor for Samsung. if there was any patent it would have been there with Samsung if you are talking about the dual pixel AF chip for the S7. if you note, that technology was NEVER announced by Sony even in their phone sensor announcements. it was a on off for Samsung.

however, that in itself is moot since canon in the last few years HAS managed to get it's own on sensor ADC technology patented.
 

aa_angus

EOS 90D
Nov 25, 2015
188
32
Mt Spokane Photography said:
There are some things to consider, and they depend entirely on your situation.

1. When you get the camera, Your editing software will likely not work with the CR2 files for a month or 6. Phase One, DXO, Adobe, ACDSEE, - only DPP will work fully. If you are a pro with a established work flow, it means the camera is just a toy while waiting.

2. Third Party Flash Units seem to have a way of needing firmware updates, same with the remote triggers.

3. New camera models usually break the reverse engineering of at least a few third party lenses, there is no way to know until the camera gets in your hands.

4. Accessories are usually not available, even Canon new accessories take a few months to be available. Third party items like L Brackets, grips, etc take time to design and develop, so more months of waiting.

So evaluate your situation, be prepared to set the camera to raw + jpeg or use DPP while waiting for your favorite photo editor to be updated for raw. If you use third party lenses, hope that they will still work with the new camera.


LOL, drops over 5G on a new body, yet is too stingy to buy Canon flashes.
 

mclaren777

EOS RP
Apr 9, 2012
227
137
Diko said:
3/ True unseen innovation. Whatever people speculate DPRAW is twice the size of regular RAW (DPRAW: 66.9 Mb. vs RAW: 36.8 Mb.). That's for a reason.
The question that remains is if Canon will give license and share the know-how to operate to Adobe (LR, CR for PS usage) and Phase One (C1).

I can answer that for you right now: no, I don't think it's likely that anybody will support DPRAW besides Canon.
 

aa_angus

EOS 90D
Nov 25, 2015
188
32
mclaren777 said:
Diko said:
3/ True unseen innovation. Whatever people speculate DPRAW is twice the size of regular RAW (DPRAW: 66.9 Mb. vs RAW: 36.8 Mb.). That's for a reason.
The question that remains is if Canon will give license and share the know-how to operate to Adobe (LR, CR for PS usage) and Phase One (C1).

I can answer that for you right now: no, I don't think it's likely that anybody will support DPRAW besides Canon.

Yeah, it might take a whole two weeks until lightroom supports it
 

YuengLinger

Godzilla needs boxing lessons.
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Simple answer to original simple question: The 5DIII is a great camera that is ready right now, with proven virtues and known flaws, and can be bought new for $1000 USD less. The 1DX II is available right now for those who need something a little better AND have hands that fit its size.

There is absolutely no practical or business grounded reason to preorder a 5DIV (unless you are a self-publishing reviewer who won't get a trial body), but for those with an itch for new technology, it's your money, indulge!
 
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aa_angus

EOS 90D
Nov 25, 2015
188
32
YuengLinger said:
Simple answer to original simple question: The 5DIII is a great camera that is ready right now, with proven virtues and known flaws, and can be bought new for $1000 USD less. The 1DX II is available right now for those who need something a little better AND have hands that fit its size.

There is absolutely no practical or business grounded reason to preorder a 5DIV (unless you are a self-publishing reviewer who won't get a trial body), but for those with an itch for new technology, it's your money, indulge!


Buying a 5DIII for only $1000 less seems pretty silly to me. The IV is going to blow it away. In the world of photography, $1000 isn't a whole lot, and you're going to sacrifice so much to save that amount.
 
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Mikehit

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Jul 28, 2015
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aa_angus said:
YuengLinger said:
Simple answer to original simple question: The 5DIII is a great camera that is ready right now, with proven virtues and known flaws, and can be bought new for $1000 USD less. The 1DX II is available right now for those who need something a little better AND have hands that fit its size.

There is absolutely no practical or business grounded reason to preorder a 5DIV (unless you are a self-publishing reviewer who won't get a trial body), but for those with an itch for new technology, it's your money, indulge!


Buying a 5DIII for only $1000 less seems pretty silly to me. The IV is going to blow it away. In the world of photography, $1000 isn't a whole lot, and you're going to sacrifice so much to save that amount.

When the 5D3 is already so accomplished $1,000 is a whole lot of money and I doubt the 5D4 will 'blow it away'. The Mk4 may have useful functions but that does not necessarily affect the end result (image quality).

When your choice is either a body or a lens, $1,000 is often quite significant.
 

j-nord

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Feb 16, 2016
467
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Colorado
aa_angus said:
Mt Spokane Photography said:
There are some things to consider, and they depend entirely on your situation.

1. When you get the camera, Your editing software will likely not work with the CR2 files for a month or 6. Phase One, DXO, Adobe, ACDSEE, - only DPP will work fully. If you are a pro with a established work flow, it means the camera is just a toy while waiting.

2. Third Party Flash Units seem to have a way of needing firmware updates, same with the remote triggers.

3. New camera models usually break the reverse engineering of at least a few third party lenses, there is no way to know until the camera gets in your hands.

4. Accessories are usually not available, even Canon new accessories take a few months to be available. Third party items like L Brackets, grips, etc take time to design and develop, so more months of waiting.

So evaluate your situation, be prepared to set the camera to raw + jpeg or use DPP while waiting for your favorite photo editor to be updated for raw. If you use third party lenses, hope that they will still work with the new camera.


LOL, drops over 5G on a new body, yet is too stingy to buy Canon flashes.

There is a lot of high end lighting systems and in particular ETTL remotes that require reverse engineering. Not a case of being stingy...
 

YuengLinger

Godzilla needs boxing lessons.
CR Pro
Dec 20, 2012
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aa_angus said:
YuengLinger said:
Simple answer to original simple question: The 5DIII is a great camera that is ready right now, with proven virtues and known flaws, and can be bought new for $1000 USD less. The 1DX II is available right now for those who need something a little better AND have hands that fit its size.

There is absolutely no practical or business grounded reason to preorder a 5DIV (unless you are a self-publishing reviewer who won't get a trial body), but for those with an itch for new technology, it's your money, indulge!


Buying a 5DIII for only $1000 less seems pretty silly to me. The IV is going to blow it away. In the world of photography, $1000 isn't a whole lot, and you're going to sacrifice so much to save that amount.

You apparently missed my other points--saving $1000 on a great (by any standards) camera you can have delivered by tomorrow, rather than one incrementally better in a month or so, is not a negligible bonus, even in the world of photography.
 
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