Canon 1DXmkII 4K Video jello.

[lay85]

I've recently upgraded to the Canon 1DXmkII and have noticed when filming in 4K the jello issue renders the footage completely unusable. We've been using DSLR's for 7 years now for filming from inside a moving car and have never had any issue's so we were excited to finally move to 4k but the entire footage is jello.
On the latest test we switched to 1080 x 1920 and the footage is perfect, no jello and super stable so does anyone have any answers for the 4K issue?

 

[Orangutan]

noticed when filming in 4K the jello issue renders the footage completely unusable.

Please post a short clip demonstrating the problem.

 

[Besisika]

Did you try 29.98fps?

 

[lay85]

Posting a clip is not really possible due to copyright but when I showed someone else they couldnt believe how bad it was. On a tripod the footage is stunning, just so sharp and it's fine handheld but when it's a bumpy ride it's useless.

Orangutan - we always shoot the bumpy stuff at 60fps.

 

[Jopa]

Can't you just use some kind of stabilization? What's the point of having shaky footage?

 

[lay85]

Can't you just use some kind of stabilization? What's the point of having shaky footage?

We do use stabilization. Our procedure of 7 years of using Canon cameras has been to post stabilize the footage and it comes out great but like I said this is the first time shooting 4K and the jello is horific. I was kind of hoping someone might say it's a Motion J-peg issue because the Full HD footage has no jello at all.
In 7 years I've only had about 5 minutes of jello footage but so far 98% of the 4K footage is bad jello.

 

[Besisika]

Do you have the jello before the stabilization or after the stabilization in post? I never shot in a car, but good to know.
I tried to stabilize a handheld shot the other day and got some jellos as well so I decided to use a monopod. I assumed that my post technique was not good enough. I didn't associate it with 4K.

 

[Jack Douglas]

Do you have the jello before the stabilization or after the stabilization in post? I never shot in a car, but good to know.
I tried to stabilize a handheld shot the other day and got some jellos as well so I decided to use a monopod. I assumed that my post technique was not good enough. I didn't associate it with 4K.

Excuse my ignorance since I'm totally new to this but are we talking about camera shake or camera motion regarding the jello? Is it only very fast action that produces it? How does IS of the lens affect this? Is it the same if the camera is stationary and the subject is in motion. Does shutter speed affect it? Is it only correctable in PP?

For any other beginners following this thread here is an illustrative video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6LzaPARy3uA

Jack

 

[lay85]

Do you have the jello before the stabilization or after the stabilization in post? I never shot in a car, but good to know.
I tried to stabilize a handheld shot the other day and got some jellos as well so I decided to use a monopod. I assumed that my post technique was not good enough. I didn't associate it with 4K.

Excuse my ignorance since I'm totally new to this but are we talking about camera shake or camera motion regarding the jello? Is it only very fast action that produces it? How does IS of the lens affect this? Is it the same if the camera is stationary and the subject is in motion. Does shutter speed affect it? Is it only correctable in PP?

For any other beginners following this thread here is an illustrative video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6LzaPARy3uA

Jack

Didnt attempt stabilisation in post as footage was horrendous.

I'd say camera shake.

No IS lens used.

If camera is stationary and subject moving footage is incredible (incredible good!)

Tried various shutter speeds, no change.

Stabilizing jello in PP generally makes it worse.

Spoke to Canon tech yesterday but he didnt know what jello was so got nowhere!

 

[Jack Douglas]

Good old Canon rep!

Hope to hear more on this from those in the know. I've only done a small amount of 1DX2 video of a woodpecker in HD 120 and it looked pretty impressive as slow motion compared to some photos which were at IS 12800 - very cloudy day.

Jack

 

[Besisika]

I am relatively new too.
I am not sure what causes that.

OK, if/when you have a chance can you shoot similar scene using 30fps and then 60fps? And then compare the 3 results. I realize that it is not what you might want to hear, many sticks to 24fps due to cinematic look.
But please humor me, I just want to know.

The reason is because I had serious issue with rolling shutter shooting 4K at 24fps, but at 30fps it is reduced to a very satisfactory level and at 60fps totally gone. Ever since, I decided to shoot at 30fps. It has huge consequences but I prefer that way.

 

[lay85]

So I've had some reply's from Canon - they told me it was the wrong memory card but after I mentioned it was the card that came with the camera they then said I was using the wrong shutter speed and they kindly gave me the correct shutter speed to use along with links to a manual! Not only was I using the shutter speed they recommend but I've tried all variations of shutter speed as well so just waiting for the next reply.

 

[Jack Douglas]

Thanks for the update, keep us informed.

Jack

 

[Josh Denver]

No it's not the memory card and shutter speed is not a factor, and it's nothing you can fix, sorry.

The jello you describe is a phenomenon called Rolling Shutter that's inherent to CMOS sensors.

The sensor is read quickly line by line from the top right to bottom left.

So when a camera is moved in a horizontal plane quickly enough, you can see the image being distorted, as in lines being bent, because the top part has been recorded earlier than the bottom part, thus further back. It's an overly looking like Jello motion so it's sometimes referred as Jello.

The solution to fix that phenomenon is having a sensor that reads the sensor/image at one moment. These sensors are called to have GLOBAL shutter. While our DSLRs have rolling shutters. Cinema cameras have Global shutters like the Blackmagic cameras and so on. The other solution is by using an extremely fast read-out sensor, so the distortion is so little to have no visible effect on the image

Unfortunately,

all 4K cameras with large sensors that are Rolling shutter, and are at this price bracket, are quite slow in reading the large 4K area, thus have more jello in 4K vs 1080p (more lines have to be read so slower so more distortion and vice versa).

The distortion amount is calculated on video forums. The Canon 1Dx II, Sony A7s/A7rII, GH4, all have a similar amount of high jello at about 30milliseconds of reading the frame.

With all DSLRs it was always contraindicated to shoot video with any fast horizontal movement, out of a pumpy car is the most hideous rolling shutter inducing situation you could ever have! Many reviewers even test rolling shutter by shooting driving out of a car, or on a pumpy road, as it's the most pronounced there.

So if you want a 4K shooting camera with a large sensor WITHOUT jello, the options are: Cinema cameras: Blackmagic 4K cinema camera, has a global shutter, but very bad in lowlight. Sony FS7, has very low rolling shutter of about 12ms (invisible), APS-C sized ship with tons of video features. Not much more than a 1DXII (But loses out on FF and DPAF and Lowlight). All these video cameras however, don't shoot stills. Not to mention highest end 1DXII sports type stills.

If you want a camera that shoots decent stills and has stable rolling shutter at 4K, go with smaller sensors.

The Panasonic GX85, Olympus EM1-II, Sony RX-10, RX-100V, etc. They're all pretty great in 4K jello. Small sensors and have all the stuff that comes with that.


Hope this helped more than disappointed.

Thanks for the update, keep us informed.

Jack

Thanks for the update, keep us informed.

Jack

 

[Jack Douglas]

Josh Denver, that's a very thoughtful and well written commentary on the subject; one we have to live with. I've Googled a fair amount over the last week and personally had more or less sorted it out but this was still helpful.

Now what if the scenario is one of a moving object, say a bird, and I'm using at a very high shutter speed. Would the 1DX II still display a jello distortion when extracting a shot, thus diminishing the value of this form of action shooting; in other words 60 fps vs 14 fps is not really useful??

Jack

 

[lay85]

Yes Josh but as per the original question why is the 1920x1080 footage perfect and 4k footage useless. Even at about 10km/hr the 4k footage is bad, about 10% is almost usable.
I'm thinking it's actually more to do with Motion J-peg?

 

[Besisika]

Josh Denver, that's a very thoughtful and well written commentary on the subject; one we have to live with. I've Googled a fair amount over the last week and personally had more or less sorted it out but this was still helpful.

Now what if the scenario is one of a moving object, say a bird, and I'm using at a very high shutter speed. Would the 1DX II still display a jello distortion when extracting a shot, thus diminishing the value of this form of action shooting; in other words 60 fps vs 14 fps is not really useful??

Jack

Jack,
I don't expect you to have any issue, because you are panning with the bird. And even if you freeze it, I still don't expect you to have any issue with the bird.
Below is an example of a frame grab taken that way.
Verdun Cricket-0001 by Besisika, on Flickr

 

[Besisika]

Yes Josh but as per the original question why is the 1920x1080 footage perfect and 4k footage useless. Even at about 10km/hr the 4k footage is bad, about 10% is almost usable.
I'm thinking it's actually more to do with Motion J-peg?

Me too, I am having ugly result (with rolling shutter) shooting 4K at 24fps, very usable at 30fps and perfect at 60fps.
Is it Motion J-peg; I am not sure. Let's see what Canon says. But agree, something is not right.

 

[Josh Denver]

No it's zero to do with the codec wether motion Jpec or ProRes. Here are some facts to make you understand how the 1DXII works and hopefully answer your questions:

-4K 24p/25p/30p have a slow sensor readout speed, 30milliseconds to read a frame from corner to corner.

-4K 50p/60p is twice as fast. Because the chip is forced to get 60 frames in a second each frame is read faster. Half 30millisecond is 15ms, which is Sony FS7/300 rolling shutter speed.(Has that videoish 60p look though of course or has to be slowed down)

-1080p modes are a medium 22ms which is better that 5D MKIII video.

-Rolling shutter distortion only appears in an image when the camera is panned horizontally fast, or when a very fast object passes perpendicular to the sensor plane (Race car from the side). In all other normal speeds shooting it's almost invisible and in tripod shots it is invisible (not almost)

- RS distortion is related to how the sensor is read electronically, meaning when the camera uses an electronic shutter. While in normal stills mode (14fps) the camera uses a physical shutter that eliminates any trace of distortion (it opens and closes the exposure to the entire sensor at once, same as a camera with a global electronic shutter). So physical shutters are superior but of course can't be used for 30p and 60p speeds. (Sony F65, highest end cinema camera, has a physical shutter for 120p, but it's a HUGE block having its own fan and noise)

If you want to shoot for frame extraction 4K 60p is the way to go. Keep lateral pans in non crazy territory.

If you want a film like motion and shooting a film say a dialogue between to actors, 24p 4K is the way to go.

If you want to conserve memory space shooot in 1080p, All-i setting, 24/25/30p. Or 60p if you want to slow it down (or like the fluid 60p look god forbids)

 

[Jack Douglas]

Josh, thanks for the info!

Jack