Canon releases an official statement about the EOS R5 and EOS R6 heat concerns

[BeenThere]

Good news. With all this negativity, the price should be just about right by Christmas. I'm a stills shooter, mostly wildlife and landscapes, and am excited about the R5 AF and FPS. I wish the R6 had a little more MPs and that would be a no brainer for me. As I mentioned, I shoot stills, but if I wanted to shoot 8K video I'm not sure I could afford the R5, the costs of very large CFExpress cards, a more powerful PC to manage the large 8K files and likely a better monitor to see the 8K goodness and additional storage to store the files. Why are hobbies so expensive?

I wonder where all this will end? Just how much detail can the human eye/brain discern?

Why would you want to shoot 8k as a hobbiest? Who would be your audience? I doubt that most R5 buyers will ever use the 8K camera capability. Working at the bleeding edge of technology is always very expensive and fraught with difficulties. Keep it real and you will get a lot more usable material. I doubt that this Christmas will be a time for R5/6 price drops. I would not be surprised if dealers are not still on limited allocations at Christmas.

 

[herein2020]

Canon have made video-focused cameras in DSLR bodies in the past (i.e. 1DC) - maybe an R5C is in the cards to answer those concerns. In all honesty though, I know video is a core part of a lot of peoples workflow, but I do wonder about the proportionality of work divided between stills and video. I mean, if Canon severely compromised the stills function to manage better video features, would the camera sell better (since that's what Canon will care about and drive their decisions)? What about vice versa?

One thing I feel pretty confident about is that the 5D series has a reasonable following for a reason: straying from or compromising that formula in any big way would be potentially disruptive. For me, loss of weather sealing could mean I wouldn't have a great upgrade path in Canon until they offer another camera with reasonably high resolution and 5D-equivalent weather sealing. While I'm only one person, and less than a drop in the pool of consumers, I strongly suspect there are a lot of other photographers out there who care more about the weather sealing than pushing past a 20 minute 8K recording limit.

I think the mass exodus to Sony is what really got Canon's attention and most of that exodus was due to video features from what I have read. Also no one is saying that people want to push past 20min of 8K recording, the problem is that 4K120, 4K60, and 4K30 is affected as well. Also you only get the listed times in the chart at 73F. I regularly shoot in 98F and 100% humidity conditions, it is unclear how bad the problem will be in real world conditions. It is also unclear if many short clips throughout a hot humid day will still lead to a thermal shutdown.

I would gladly give up weather sealing in exchange for rock solid reliable video and photo features; I can better control how much rain hits my camera than I can what temperature it is subjected to. This is why I think the true hybrid camp would be better served by a dedicated body that includes cooling and slightly larger size. No one is asking to replace a Cinema camera with a MILC...all we want is a camera that is reliable, stable, and predictable when using the features that are advertised.

 

[Starting out EOS R]

On the EOS R, the settings can be changed so that the EVF and flippy screen show the live view as aperture, shutter speed and ISO are changed (Exposure Simulation). It's a great function to see what subtle changes make to the image when under or overexposing and image. Whilst it does add a little more drain on the battery, it doesn't affect it much. I scanned through the specs on the R5 and cant see that function is there but it does say there is a button that can show a preview similar to that on the 7D MKII & other cameras. It would be a shame if this feature wasn't on the R5.

 

[BeenThere]

It's not that Canon won't add it at a cheap price, its that its not possible to add it while also making the camera work for stills in a variety of environments (weather sealed body, small size, etc). The 1DX Mark III doesn't have issues with overheating because the body is far larger to dissipate the heat. It's purely physics. Canon made two incredible FF cameras to go along with their highly regarded RF lenses. Are they perfect? No. Is any camera perfect? At this point in time, no.

Use the EF/RF filter adapter and EF lenses and you potentially have the ND drop in filter solution. More filter options are needed, but if Canon doesn’t step up with these, 3rd parties probably will.

 

[herein2020]

Here's something else Canon says, from the same piece (my emphasis) - you seem to have "accidentally" neglected to tell the whole story:


Are you telling us that a camera that can do 4k 10 bit for as long as it's needed and cropped/uncropped 8k 10 bit as well, doesn't fulfil the criteria to be a pro support camera?

Canon also says (my emphasis again):


Seems to me that they're very being clear that depending on the production, the R5 might serve as the lead device, or as a support camera.

And at 4k, yes, if can be the lead camera.

I did not accidentally neglect anything. the logic here is an AND statement not an OR statement ....it can be a lead production camera AND it can be a support camera. The part you are conveniently neglecting to add is that it overheats in pretty much all high quality modes including 4K120, 4K60, and 4K30. The only time it will not overheat is in line skipped modes which you can already get from the EOS R and many other camera bodies.

You also keep skipping the fact that you will only get those listed times at 73F. What happens when it is 100F and 100% humidity? What happens if you just need many short clips throughout the day will it still overheat? What happens when you shoot all day for a photo shoot then need to switch over to video, how soon will it overheat? Many real world scenarios will drastically lower the listed times and no customer will care why you are standing around waiting for your equipment to start working again...they are just going to hire someone else next time.

As a photography camera the R5 and R6 are fantastic, as hybrid cameras unless plenty of real world testing reveals otherwise, on paper so far they are not reliable enough to use for hybrid paying work, its just that simple. The problem is they are both marketed as paying gig production level hybrid cameras with a heavy emphasis on video and based on the thermal limitations I disagree with this viewpoint.

 

[canonnews]

Sony is pretty conservative after they learned their lessons of overheating and through firmware and later camera releases. The A7M3 says you may only get 29mins of recording due to overheating at up to 104f, but in real life I’ve gotten up to an hour and a half outdoors under the sun. The same is in the a7r3 manual, 29mins, but it has never overheated on me.

With Canon none of this was known or shared until shortly after preorders opened and AFTER the CVP leak came out.At that point Canon came out and publicly made a statement.

Sony is no angel, but neither is Canon. Have we forgotten how hard Canon tried to bury the 1DM3 fiasco? Yes, our sports flagship can’t focus, but let’s tell them its the shooters fault for using the wrong settings...

I'm sorry when did Sony officially give a PR announcement about overheating with specific numbers? I looked a the A7 III manual and it was vague. there was no numbers. there was certainly no recycling numbers - which are important as well. and temperature cycling does happen even on Sony's because that's just the nature of thermodynamics.

Canon buried the 1D Mark III? that's why they announced publically that they were working on corrections 3 months after the camera was rolled out to the public? That's revising history some there isn't it? They released the sub mirror fix - the first of several less than two months after that. People seem to think that critical and hard to diagnose problems should be resolved immediately though. and if you have to go back 13 years to find something that Canon did partly wrong or could have done better, I think that's pretty much a win. Let's not forget that sony quickly replaced the original A7 because it had a wobbly mount (there was even a third party replacement) and bragged that the A7 II had "longer screws for a more durable mount".

This is Canon's first IBIS release and the first ever camera in existence that oversamples from 8K to 4K. Yet people expect it to work like a $20K cini camera.

and btw, preorders - aren't actually spending money. pre-orders can be easily canceled. there's a difference there.

 

[nighthawk82]

M ypersonal use case would be macro, getting slow-mo shots of various bugs doing their thing, e.g. a butterfly landing, sticking its proboscis into a flower, drinking and flying off again. Or sweat bees taking a pollen bath. Those are are hard to get right as stills, let alone video and I can do that for a long time in a row in my garden.
Since that's my only interest in video, I won't ever look at getting a proper cine camera. And it's a niche use case for a niche hobby, so all the hand (or other body part) waving about how professionals should work doesn't matter to me, personally.

Maybe I'll never hit the overheating threshold and all this is moot, but as someone else on this forum said: you can put the condescension back in the box.

Ok fine... so do you currently do any of that sort of macro stuff? How exactly? I might be wrong, but I cannot find any other full frame ILC non-cinema camera that can do 4k 120fps, let alone do it for 15 continuous minutes. So now people are bitching because Canon decided to allow 8k RAW or 4k 120fps (which no other manufacturer allows yet), but with a limitation that 99.9999% of users will be absolutely fine with. If they left the option out in order to be able to work more on getting that functionality without limitation, then people will cry foul that Canon is evil and is protecting their cinema line and how mediocre Canon is. People can never be pleased it seems. So, even though I'm still not sure how you currently get 4k 120fps for longer than 15 minutes, whatever it is you're doing, stick with it because the R5 is not designed and not able to handle that use case. If you're currently doing 4k 60fps, or FullHD 120fps to get your shots, you'll be pleased to know there's no heat limitation on those modes, so the R5 will still be an upgrade and moreover in 15 minutes you MIGHT actually get that butterfly landing within that time frame, so you can try 4k 120fps too.

 

[canonnews]

I did not accidentally neglect anything. the logic here is an AND statement not an OR statement ....it can be a lead production camera AND it can be a support camera. The part you are conveniently neglecting to add is that it overheats in pretty much all high quality modes including 4K120, 4K60, and 4K30. The only time it will not overheat is in line skipped modes which you can already get from the EOS R and many other camera bodies.

The R5 is meant as is all the 5D series as ahybrid it's not going to do as well as a video camera. as a matter of fact, there isn't any hybrids that do as well as a real video camera, even though you could argue the GH5 comes closest. The amount of SDI, XLR connectors, and video specific erognomnics that exist on a video camera completely destroys any thought that serious video people should use a camera.

using a hybrid camera is just because you want the convenience. well there are downsides to convenience. and btw, you can 5.1k oversample down to 4k without limits, and also use full width line skipping without limits. you have options. Most of the times, if you are doing long running interviews, BTS's, concerts of kids, what have you - how much of that time do you actually need with full over sampled video. What the problem domain seems to be is long running video that needs the highest level of IQ and needs to be over n minutes and that it needs to be full width as well. . how of that actually exists? someone mentioned safari - that would be better off with 5.1K oversampled anyways most of the time.

and really anyone that actually thought about this at all would have naturally assumed that oversampled 4K on this camera would be limited. it's oversampling from 8K. No other camera on the planet right now does that.

 

[Starting out EOS R]

I did not accidentally neglect anything. the logic here is an AND statement not an OR statement ....it can be a lead production camera AND it can be a support camera. The part you are conveniently neglecting to add is that it overheats in pretty much all high quality modes including 4K120, 4K60, and 4K30. The only time it will not overheat is in line skipped modes which you can already get from the EOS R and many other camera bodies.

You also keep skipping the fact that you will only get those listed times at 73F. What happens when it is 100F and 100% humidity? What happens if you just need many short clips throughout the day will it still overheat? What happens when you shoot all day for a photo shoot then need to switch over to video, how soon will it overheat? Many real world scenarios will drastically lower the listed times and no customer will care why you are standing around waiting for your equipment to start working again...they are just going to hire someone else next time.

As a photography camera the R5 and R6 are fantastic, as hybrid cameras unless plenty of real world testing reveals otherwise, on paper so far they are not reliable enough to use for hybrid paying work, its just that simple. The problem is they are both marketed as paying gig production level hybrid cameras with a heavy emphasis on video and based on the thermal limitations I disagree with this viewpoint.

Just an aside and Im not saying anyone is wrong as I've not followed the whole of this conversation but the Canon Statement did say that 4K 30p using the full sensor width isn't subject overheating or any limit. Whereas the R does have 4k and no heat issues but is heavily cropped?

 

[Besisika]

Why would you want to shoot 8k as a hobbiest? Who would be your audience? I doubt that most R5 buyers will ever use the 8K camera capability. Working at the bleeding edge of technology is always very expensive and fraught with difficulties. Keep it real and you will get a lot more usable material. I doubt that this Christmas will be a time for R5/6 price drops. I would not be surprised if dealers are not still on limited allocations at Christmas.

I was surprised too. I have been shooting video for almost 15 years now and I still shoot primarily 4K. My dream of 8Ks are only for 10sec each time.

 

[Quarkcharmed]

On the EOS R, the settings can be changed so that the EVF and flippy screen show the live view as aperture, shutter speed and ISO are changed (Exposure Simulation). It's a great function to see what subtle changes make to the image when under or overexposing and image. Whilst it does add a little more drain on the battery, it doesn't affect it much. I scanned through the specs on the R5 and cant see that function is there but it does say there is a button that can show a preview similar to that on the 7D MKII & other cameras. It would be a shame if this feature wasn't on the R5.

Exposure simulation in EVF in LiveView is in all Canon cameras I know, there's no reason it's not included in the R5.

 

[herein2020]

The R5 is meant as is all the 5D series as ahybrid it's not going to do as well as a video camera. as a matter of fact, there isn't any hybrids that do as well as a real video camera, even though you could argue the GH5 comes closest. The amount of SDI, XLR connectors, and video specific erognomnics that exist on a video camera completely destroys any thought that serious video people should use a camera.

using a hybrid camera is just because you want the convenience. well there are downsides to convenience. and btw, you can 5.1k oversample down to 4k without limits, and also use full width line skipping without limits. you have options. Most of the times, if you are doing long running interviews, BTS's, concerts of kids, what have you - how much of that time do you actually need with full over sampled video. What the problem domain seems to be is long running video that needs the highest level of IQ and needs to be over n minutes and that it needs to be full width as well. . how of that actually exists? someone mentioned safari - that would be better off with 5.1K oversampled anyways most of the time.

and really anyone that actually thought about this at all would have naturally assumed that oversampled 4K on this camera would be limited. it's oversampling from 8K. No other camera on the planet right now does that.

I think the biggest problem with this type of problem is the ambiguity of it all, the chart looks great on paper but the one thing that really stands out for me is that one little number at the top of the chart 73F, and we don't even know if humidity will make that worse. I live in FL and shoot in 90+ temps and 100% humidity 8 months out of the year, my gear sits in 120F and 100% humidity cars regularly while I shoot other portions of a shoot (aerial, photography, video, underwater, etc.) so it could be hours before I need a particular piece of gear.

When they release a chart like that I immediately start to wonder how those factors will affect it in the real world, and I can't even imagine standing around on a paid shoot telling a client we need to wait for my equipment to cool down. So I think this is why people are losing their minds over this...these cameras were heavily marketed towards hybrid video/photo shooters but there are so many caveats in the video department that it's too risky to really use on a paid hybrid shoot. So in that case you are back to using something else for those scenarios and for hybrid shooters with paying clients this is a let down.

If all you need are video clips of your kids running around, or you are shooting personal projects, these are fantastic cameras, but no way would I use either of these cameras for a wedding, for a commercial promo video shoot, for a music video shoot, for pretty much any of the work that I do; there's too much of a risk of waiting for a brick to cool down.

My own personal pet peeve doesn't even have anything to do with overheating....why on earth Canon equips cameras with two card slots then only lets you create backup recordings for photography and not video is completely beyond me.

 

[herein2020]

Just an aside and Im not saying anyone is wrong as I've not followed the whole of this conversation but the Canon Statement did say that 4K 30p using the full sensor width isn't subject overheating or any limit. Whereas the R does have 4k and no heat issues but is heavily cropped?

You are correct but a crop doesn't bother me or most video shooters at all. You just shoot with a wider lens. In fact my GH5 has a horrible 2X crop and it just means use a lens with twice the field of view...very easy to compensate for and the video quality is the same. I love my GH5 but it has many major limitations, everything from no AF to poor color science, all of those factors are well known, documented, and have plenty of workarounds; the problem with thermal limitations is that you have no control over the ambient temperature for most real world situations.

 

[sanj]

Why insulting? I only pointed out the R and R6 are not quite comparable...

Right.

 

[yungfat]

Same, so at least 2

so there are 3 now

 

[Arod820]

I've been using video capable DSLRs for a decade now and shot maybe a total of 20 minutes of video on them so naturally that's the most uninteresting news I could think of. However, it's gonna be fun seeing everyone go mad about it and construct an issue where there really is none (if you need proper heat managaement get a cinema camera ffs).

That’s why my C100 is my lockdown cover shot and my EOS R is my handheld or tight shot. This is old news really and kind of expected

 

[Kit.]

Why would you want to shoot 8k as a hobbiest?

To be able to keep that effing cheetah in a 4K frame when cropped, especially given the laggy EVF?

 

[yungfat]

I think the biggest problem with this type of problem is the ambiguity of it all, the chart looks great on paper but the one thing that really stands out for me is that one little number at the top of the chart 73F, and we don't even know if humidity will make that worse. I live in FL and shoot in 90+ temps and 100% humidity 8 months out of the year, my gear sits in 120F and 100% humidity cars regularly while I shoot other portions of a shoot (aerial, photography, video, underwater, etc.) so it could be hours before I need a particular piece of gear.

When they release a chart like that I immediately start to wonder how those factors will affect it in the real world, and I can't even imagine standing around on a paid shoot telling a client we need to wait for my equipment to cool down. So I think this is why people are losing their minds over this...these cameras were heavily marketed towards hybrid video/photo shooters but there are so many caveats in the video department that it's too risky to really use on a paid hybrid shoot. So in that case you are back to using something else for those scenarios and for hybrid shooters with paying clients this is a let down.

If all you need are video clips of your kids running around, or you are shooting personal projects, these are fantastic cameras, but no way would I use either of these cameras for a wedding, for a commercial promo video shoot, for a music video shoot, for pretty much any of the work that I do; there's too much of a risk of waiting for a brick to cool down.

My own personal pet peeve doesn't even have anything to do with overheating....why on earth Canon equips cameras with two card slots then only lets you create backup recordings for photography and not video is completely beyond me.

If you like Sony, continue with Sony.

every company having different way to things that they think it’s important to them.

show respect to each others, and go with what you like.

of course your comments will be appreciated.

nothing is perfect in the world, perh we all have to learn to live with limitations especially during this pandemic time.

thanks

 

[mppix]

I don't see anything about the HDMI version in that link you sent me. If you have it available, could you quote it in a post. You're most likely right about it not being 2.1, but I want confirmation.

It states that external recording is 4K60, i.e. hdmi 2.0 (but i have not seen a hdmi version number from canon)

 

[SecureGSM]

Sorry I am never going to give Canon a pass on this one. They had press releases like this:

More Canon EOS R5 specs revealed – “the camera will shoot comfortably on high-end production sets” - Canon Press Centre - Canon Europe

www.canon-europe.com

and I quote "EOS R5 holds its own as the lead camera in productions" no lead production camera in most productions would have such severe thermal constraints. I agree Canon never said specifically that 8K would be unlimited, and no one believed it would be, but so is 4K120, so is 4K60 which I use nearly all the time for gimbal work, and so is HQ 4K30. So after paying $6K for a new body and lenses the only reliable video frame rate and quality that you can get out of the R5 is the same thing you get out of the EOS R...4K 30 and written to a single card.

All Canon had to do was make an R6H version like Panasonic did, make it bigger, add a fan, give it backup video recording capabilities, and remove the recording time limit. That would have been the perfect camera.

Again. Did Canon extended any promises of thermal stability? Answer is: no. More over: limitations are clearly defined in the final specification so are by design. Consider your circumstances carefully. Do not buy if in doubt.
I understand that you are disappointed.

however your logic is false and shaky:

++++ the only reliable video frame rate and quality that you can get out of the R5 is the same thing you get out of the EOS R

A.M. : incorrect. R5 offers much broader range of video frame rates, non-cropped video, etc. Define reliability please?

++++ All Canon had to do was make an R6H version like Panasonic did, make it bigger, add a fan, give it backup video recording capabilities, and remove the recording time limit. That would have been the perfect camera.

A.M. what That would do to weather sealing in your opinion? This Is not a camcorder. Remember? This is primarily a still camera With hybrid and powerful video capabilities.

R5 is obviously not a right product for you. I got it. Why wouldn’t you move on and focus on what is important to you instead. life Is good