Canon Very Large Sensor Media Format Mirrorless 1Dx2 style Camera Seen in Wild

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
25,599
3,940
Fleetie said:
HarryFilm said:
The Proof Will Be In The Pudding!
It annoys me when people say variations of "The proof is in the pudding".
What does that even mean? What, if you rip the pudding apart, and delve around, you're going to find some non-specific thing lurking in there that is "the proof"?

The correct proverb is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating.".

There is no "The proof is in the pudding.".

Please try to get it right.

I think he got it right. His 'proof' is in the pudding. Seems sweet, but there's no nutritive informative value, and if you eat too much of it, you'll likely get sick.
 

Orangutan

EOS 5D Mark IV
Sep 25, 2010
2,140
3
Fleetie said:
It annoys me when people say variations of "The proof is in the pudding".
What does that even mean? What, if you rip the pudding apart, and delve around, you're going to find some non-specific thing lurking in there that is "the proof"?

The correct proverb is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating.".

For the most part I agree with you; however, bear in mind that many English-language expressions make little sense in our time, and have developed their own intrinsic meaning. The misuse of the expression only means the guy has never encountered the original expression, nor been curious about its origin. Hmmm...someone who's not curious or skeptical about what he hears...oddly, that seems to fit here.
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
8,265
1,938
Canada
I have a few problems with the entire thread.....

First, Canon is a very secretive company and the release of such information (pixel sizes, frame rates, performance, etc, etc, etc), is unparalleled and flies in the face of non disclosure agreements.

Secondly, the numbers do not make sense..... it has 5 percent better performance than a 1DX2 I per pixel, yet has twice the pixel count and 4 times the sensor area?

Thirdly, we have a situation where one person "knows the truth" and there is no Independent confirmation......

This would be rated CR -9....... good for entertainment, but about as reliable as reports that Elvis is still alive and lives in a secret base on the far side of the moon.....
 

danski0224

EOS R
Apr 24, 2011
1,104
12
I've been looking in pudding for years, searching for the elusive proof, and never found any. So much wasted pudding, even chocolate pudding.

Now, I learn that I should have been eating the pudding. Dammit.

Time to make a fresh batch.

:)
 

HarryFilm

EOS RP
Jun 6, 2016
712
166
Don Haines said:
I have a few problems with the entire thread.....

First, Canon is a very secretive company and the release of such information (pixel sizes, frame rates, performance, etc, etc, etc), is unparalleled and flies in the face of non disclosure agreements.

Secondly, the numbers do not make sense..... it has 5 percent better performance than a 1DX2 I per pixel, yet has twice the pixel count and 4 times the sensor area?

Thirdly, we have a situation where one person "knows the truth" and there is no Independent confirmation......

This would be rated CR -9....... good for entertainment, but about as reliable as reports that Elvis is still alive and lives in a secret base on the far side of the moon.....

===

Now THIS COMMENT is definitely in my area of expertise!

Light-gathering performance is not linear in most CMOS chip
circuitry processes because of MULTIPLE issues such as the
data transfer rate between sensor sites to CPU/GPU and the
quality of ADC (Analog-to-Digiotal Convertor) circuits
such as would be present on such a large size MF camera.

The amount of TIME required to do any ADC, Anti-aliasing
and YCbCr/RGB pixels conversion PER FRAME! Remember,
we are also talking about around 2,5 times the amount of
pixel data versus the 1Dx Mk2 (20 megapixels vs 50 megapixels)
AND if that 25 fps burst shooting rate is true THEN there is
also much less time to do it in! That means a 5% announced
quality increase is actually MUCH MUCH BETTER than
I would have normally expected! In fact, by many
metrics, quality SHOULD BE WORSE than the
1Dxmk2 if this Canon MF camera really does
shoot at 25 fps! If that much engineering
has gone into into to give us that much of
a 5% quality increase such as reduced noise
levels and better low-light photography
then I think we are in for a REAL TREAT!

In terms of NDA's, our dealer has SAID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to me!
He merely nodded slowly and smiled coyly BUT IN MY BOOK that is
good enough for me! Something BIG is coming down the pipeline
from Canon!

And my contacts in Germany/Netherlands are NOT employees
of Canon and have NO contractual obligation to Canon AT ALL!!!
AND if they DO have the public videos of a seen-in-the-wild
camera then TOUGH BEANS! That's now public knowledge taken
from a publicly accessible place -- Again, tough beans on that
as there is NO contractual/NDA obligation upon those persons!

And I saw the first photo via a videophone this weekend
and I can now tell you that in my opinion, this is NOT BUNK
and I also can give you a better description. It DEFINITELY
looks like a beefed-up Canon 1Dx Mk2. Based upon the size
of the hands in the photos I would say this camera is about
1,5 to 1,75 times the width and height of the 1Dx mk2
but not that much thicker front-to-back

I have some Canon 1Dc cameras, so I am saying
it's DEFINITELY a bigger camera but from the description
of the video as described to me (I have not seen THAT YET!)
the weight I do not think will be an issue as I understand that
lenses and body will be lighter-weight magnesium alloy
and lighter-weight LIKELY flourite-ceramic (i.e. PROBABLY
alumina-like flouro-Al2 O3) lenses. Since the "Canon Engineer"
was a smallish-gentleman and was manhandling the lens/body
like it was nothing, I expect weight to be a non-issue here!

I can tell you that the lens is HUGE! Based upon
the size of Arri-65 film/cinema cameras I've used,
I am going to estimate the sensor size would be
considered LIKELY to be a full 65mm Arri-65 cinema
like in size! It's a monster lens which looked like it
was probably an 85mm prime lens as a guess!
There was NO SHUTTER NOISE as was described
to me so it was definitely mirrorless and the live-view
screen was MUCH BIGGER than the 1Dxmk2's!

When I get the ACTUAL JPEG/MPEG photo and video files
sent by email to me I will show them here! A video phone
call does not do what I saw justice!

NOW in terms of actual specifications, it is NOT CLEAR TO ME
as to HOW those were obtained and sent to me! I cannot state
anything more on that as I simply DO NOT KNOW the background
of the rather VERY SPECIFIC CAMERA SPECIFICATIONS!
Those will need verification but based upon OTHER people's
gravevine talk I have been privy to, those specs are not
totally out-of-line from what i've heard previously.
It seems to be a Canon IMPERATIVE that full-sensor
size shooting burst rate was ALWAYS MEANT to be
at least 24/25 frames per second at 50 megapixels!
I've been told Canon wants to COMPLETELY OWN
the pro sports/action/wildlife photography side of
things and a 25 fps MF camera would DEFINITELY DO THAT!

...AND...

I've also heard they want to bring down the prices
of Phase One/Hasselblad portrait/landscape quality
downto less stratospheric price levels! And a 120
megapixels (7-to10 fps) 1Dx Mk2 style body at
10 000 to 16 000 Euros would ALSO do that!

So in my books, this is now a CR-1 rumour!

So phooey on you "Proof is in the Pudding" naysayers
which is actually a North American expression
anyways, not a Euro expression!

I'm eating' the pudding because right now it looks delicious!

Kudos to Canon --- My money is waiting for you to take it!
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
8,265
1,938
Canada
The proof IS in the pudding, and since it is pistachio pudding, the proof is NUTS!
 

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Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
8,265
1,938
Canada
Fleetie said:
HarryFilm said:
The Proof Will Be In The Pudding!
It annoys me when people say variations of "The proof is in the pudding".
What does that even mean? What, if you rip the pudding apart, and delve around, you're going to find some non-specific thing lurking in there that is "the proof"?

The correct proverb is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating.".

There is no "The proof is in the pudding.".

Please try to get it right.
some of the butchered versions of sayings are better than the original....

"All's well that ends well" becomes "All's well that ends"
"Necessity is the mother of invention" becomes "Necessity is a mother"
 

IglooEater

EOS R
Nov 15, 2014
904
0
Don Haines said:
This would be rated CR -9....... good for entertainment, but about as reliable as reports that Elvis is still alive and lives in a secret base on the far side of the moon.....

You never know..... someone on the internet says he received an anonymous email from someone who says they saw pictures once of something that might not disprove it.
 

CanonFanBoy

Purple
CR Pro
Jan 28, 2015
5,639
4,065
Irving, Texas
neuroanatomist said:
Mikehit said:
Have you presented this 'complete picture' to all your acquaintances to see if they agree with the information as a whole?

He probably showed his good friend the Canon Dealer with deep connections to Canon HQ, who Smiled Coyly and Nodded Very Slowly.

It occurs to me that a slight smile and slow nod is how I humor my three-year-old when he makes outlandish claims, but that may just be a coincidence.

Surely this connected man could help us find Gecko45. Find Gecko45 (in charge of Canon's company secrets) and we reveal the true identity of the leaker.
 

CanonFanBoy

Purple
CR Pro
Jan 28, 2015
5,639
4,065
Irving, Texas
HarryFilm said:
Don Haines said:
I have a few problems with the entire thread.....

First, Canon is a very secretive company and the release of such information (pixel sizes, frame rates, performance, etc, etc, etc), is unparalleled and flies in the face of non disclosure agreements.

Secondly, the numbers do not make sense..... it has 5 percent better performance than a 1DX2 I per pixel, yet has twice the pixel count and 4 times the sensor area?

Thirdly, we have a situation where one person "knows the truth" and there is no Independent confirmation......

This would be rated CR -9....... good for entertainment, but about as reliable as reports that Elvis is still alive and lives in a secret base on the far side of the moon.....

===

Now THIS COMMENT is definitely in my area of expertise!

Light-gathering performance is not linear in most CMOS chip
circuitry processes because of MULTIPLE issues such as the
data transfer rate between sensor sites to CPU/GPU and the
quality of ADC (Analog-to-Digiotal Convertor) circuits
such as would be present on such a large size MF camera.

The amount of TIME required to do any ADC, Anti-aliasing
and YCbCr/RGB pixels conversion PER FRAME! Remember,
we are also talking about around 2,5 times the amount of
pixel data versus the 1Dx Mk2 (20 megapixels vs 50 megapixels)
AND if that 25 fps burst shooting rate is true THEN there is
also much less time to do it in! That means a 5% announced
quality increase is actually MUCH MUCH BETTER than
I would have normally expected! In fact, by many
metrics, quality SHOULD BE WORSE than the
1Dxmk2 if this Canon MF camera really does
shoot at 25 fps! If that much engineering
has gone into into to give us that much of
a 5% quality increase such as reduced noise
levels and better low-light photography
then I think we are in for a REAL TREAT!

In terms of NDA's, our dealer has SAID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to me!
He merely nodded slowly and smiled coyly BUT IN MY BOOK that is
good enough for me! Something BIG is coming down the pipeline
from Canon!

And my contacts in Germany/Netherlands are NOT employees
of Canon and have NO contractual obligation to Canon AT ALL!!!
AND if they DO have the public videos of a seen-in-the-wild
camera then TOUGH BEANS! That's now public knowledge taken
from a publicly accessible place -- Again, tough beans on that
as there is NO contractual/NDA obligation upon those persons!

And I saw the first photo via a videophone this weekend
and I can now tell you that in my opinion, this is NOT BUNK
and I also can give you a better description. It DEFINITELY
looks like a beefed-up Canon 1Dx Mk2. Based upon the size
of the hands in the photos I would say this camera is about
1,5 to 1,75 times the width and height of the 1Dx mk2
but not that much thicker front-to-back

I have some Canon 1Dc cameras, so I am saying
it's DEFINITELY a bigger camera but from the description
of the video as described to me (I have not seen THAT YET!)
the weight I do not think will be an issue as I understand that
lenses and body will be lighter-weight magnesium alloy
and lighter-weight LIKELY flourite-ceramic (i.e. PROBABLY
alumina-like flouro-Al2 O3) lenses. Since the "Canon Engineer"
was a smallish-gentleman and was manhandling the lens/body
like it was nothing, I expect weight to be a non-issue here!

I can tell you that the lens is HUGE! Based upon
the size of Arri-65 film/cinema cameras I've used,
I am going to estimate the sensor size would be
considered LIKELY to be a full 65mm Arri-65 cinema
like in size! It's a monster lens which looked like it
was probably an 85mm prime lens as a guess!
There was NO SHUTTER NOISE as was described
to me so it was definitely mirrorless and the live-view
screen was MUCH BIGGER than the 1Dxmk2's!

When I get the ACTUAL JPEG/MPEG photo and video files
sent by email to me I will show them here! A video phone
call does not do what I saw justice!

NOW in terms of actual specifications, it is NOT CLEAR TO ME
as to HOW those were obtained and sent to me! I cannot state
anything more on that as I simply DO NOT KNOW the background
of the rather VERY SPECIFIC CAMERA SPECIFICATIONS!
Those will need verification but based upon OTHER people's
gravevine talk I have been privy to, those specs are not
totally out-of-line from what i've heard previously.
It seems to be a Canon IMPERATIVE that full-sensor
size shooting burst rate was ALWAYS MEANT to be
at least 24/25 frames per second at 50 megapixels!
I've been told Canon wants to COMPLETELY OWN
the pro sports/action/wildlife photography side of
things and a 25 fps MF camera would DEFINITELY DO THAT!

...AND...

I've also heard they want to bring down the prices
of Phase One/Hasselblad portrait/landscape quality
downto less stratospheric price levels! And a 120
megapixels (7-to10 fps) 1Dx Mk2 style body at
10 000 to 16 000 Euros would ALSO do that!

So in my books, this is now a CR-1 rumour!

So phooey on you "Proof is in the Pudding" naysayers
which is actually a North American expression
anyways, not a Euro expression!

I'm eating' the pudding because right now it looks delicious!

Kudos to Canon --- My money is waiting for you to take it!

Are you Gecko45? I've been trying to contact you for years. Please PM me.
 

CanonFanBoy

Purple
CR Pro
Jan 28, 2015
5,639
4,065
Irving, Texas
Internet Commando protecting Canon's secrets while putting them all on display with a coy smile and nod.
 

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rrcphoto

EOS R6
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
HarryFilm said:
This is a reformatted copy of an email sent to me from
colleagues in the Netherlands and Germany in Early 2017

you shouldn't have reformatted it :p

in reality, there's nothing stopping canon from making larger than full frame sensors.

back in the early days of full frame (and they may still be doing it) canon full frame sensors were made up of three stitched exposures on the wafer.

a larger than full frame sensor is 4 stitched images. that's exactly how sony makes them now.

aps-h was chosen originall as the largest non-stitched sensor canon could create.

so if we look at 4x aps-h that's how much canon *could* make with existing processes and still be rather economical. the yields would be less because you have more surface area for imperfections.

29mm x 18.5mm = 55mm x 36.5mm stitched approximately

this would be slightly smaller when you move it to the 645 ratios of the 55x40mm 100mp sensor used by phaseone and hassy, but if you used it as a 3:2's ratio the same as canon's other sensors, you're pretty damned close to the same perspective.

the ultimate 1Ds replacement? given the large throat, and ALSO the large registration distance of the EF mount - could a mirrorless 1Ds with an EF mount that also excepts - EF-X lenses work with it? if it's an EF lens, it goes down to 35mm full frame image size in "crop mode" - approximately a 1.5 crop.

keep in mind that the EF mount has a 54mm throat diamater, with a registration distance of 44mm. this is more than enough "room" to host a larger sensor. if it's mirrorless you don't need to support the large mirror required for the optical viewfinder.

the image sensor could easily have around 45mp DPAF (current 5D Mark IV) to around 75mp (5Ds) to also around 180MP if they choose to use the 120MP 5Ds Mark II sensor in it.

a full .75 Full frame cropped camera with 180MP, cropped down to 120MP in EF lens mode with canon's ergonomics, large battery of a 1 series body for under 10k would probably simply remove the entire market. Canon would drop the mic, walk off the stage and everyone else try to decide what other jobs they are going to go into. I'm not sure Canon would be that predatory - they aren't by nature unless it's against their core business lines.

Conversely if that's what the 120MP DSLR that canon stated is IN development is - then we've have a 120MP medium format with a 80MP EF crop mode. oh woe.

The EF mount can adapt every single medium format type except leaf shutter lenses, so still having a high degree of medium format compatibility.

After musing and writing it all out - it wouldn't surprise me if canon WAS testing such a beast, this would however go through ALOT of field testing IN field testing, they'd probably be using older tech DIGIC's, heat spreaders, etc making the camera beefier than the production unit. Certainly possible - however still probably falling flat on the need in the market for such a camera.

however Hassy and Fuji may have dusted off these projects again. with canon's DPAF sensors. the newer DIGIC 7 that is 16 times faster than DIGIC 6, there's the potential of doing alot more but still with current EOS technology to reduce the overall unit cost.

I'd sell my first born for such a camera -just don't tell her that, it was her birthday today. :)
 

HarryFilm

EOS RP
Jun 6, 2016
712
166
TO: rrcphoto

---

So I have some VERY exciting news coming from
my Netherlands/Germany contacts who have told
me a big leak from THEIR sources is coming out
AFTER NAB 2017. Evidently, an entire "Leak Video"
has been produced by their sources showcasing
the new Canon 50 megapixel and 120 megapixel
Medium Format cameras in the WILD! So it looks
like BOTH VERSIONS are coming at the same time!
This video is said to contain footage filmed in Japan
and in Germany and one of the segments purports
to show a DETAILED CLOSE-UP interior and exterior
view of a pre-production 50 megapixel mirrorless
Medium Format sensor test model within a large
1Dx-mk2 style sports body with a large
prime lens attached!

It is also been disclosed to me that seven test images
were obtained. Three 4:4:4 16-bits per colour channel
JPEG-2000 format Wavelet compressed image files
were each obtained from the 50 megapixel and
the 120 megapixel model.

One RAW unprocessed photo was also obtained from
the 120 megapixel model at full resolution. I do NOT
KNOW the description or content of the imagery
or where the photos were taken! It was disclosed
to me that Canon will at least ANNOUNCE the
cameras sometime in 2nd quarter 2018 with
sales starting by 4th Quarter 2018 or 1st quarter 2019.
I suspect that the 2018 Winter Olympics will
be used for real-world testing of prototypes!
This differs from earlier notes to me where
an earlier announce date was envisioned.

It was finally disclosed to me that the sources
have PHYSICAL PROOF that the 50 megapixel
burst shooting rate is indeed Global Shutter-based
25 frames per second on both RAW and JPEG-2000!
I do NOT have the tested burst frame rate of the
120 megapixel model except that a 7-to-10 frames
per second also using Global Shutter Mirrorless
was mentioned.

Since Extraordinary Claims have been made,
I asked for extraordinary proof and it SEEMS
I am to be obliged after NAB 2017!

If I do receive those images and/or video,
I will post them here or at least provide links.
As a note I have had NO confirmation, nor any
information from ANY Canon Dealer nor from
ANY of our other video products dealers.
So whatever is coming down the pipeline,
I can say that everyone in the OFFICIAL
Canon world is sealing their lips tightly!

Again, we shall see IF the Proof really IS in the Pudding!

--

ON a technical note:

I have seen single pass CMOS chips from Teledyne-Dalsa
the size of an entire 8.5x11 inch sheet of paper at 16k+
resolutions so NO STITCHING of chips is required these days.

Arri DOES do that sort of stitching you describe with
their Alexa-65 cinema camera which I think is technically
a Philips Semiconductor or related company manufactured
sensor (not sure though!). They would do that for ease of
manufacture which means some considerable cost savings.

For a company like Canon, I don't think this will be
an issue since they HAVE their OWN sensor fabs
and a 65mm MF sensor can easily fit on 200mm
silicon discs at a reasonable cost and
since the sensor photosites at 65 mm MF
would be quite large, they don't need a
fancy UV-based lithographic process for
the chips which would reduce costs by
an enormous amount!

Canon is NOT Intel, who spends 4 billion
US dollars on a single CMOS Computer CPU Fab.
Canon doesn't need Intel's 14 nanometre CPU-making
processes and DOES NOT need 300mm substrates!

The much cheaper CMOS Fabs on 200mm
silicon discs at 45 or 90 nm chipmaking
processes would be just fine for Canon!

For cooling, I fully expect a powerful passive
cooling system will be used using lots of internal
heat sinks and a sealed air-or-liquid thermal
exchange system. I don't think we will see
vent holes or fan-based cooling.
 

HarryFilm

EOS RP
Jun 6, 2016
712
166
Jack Douglas said:
Wow, this is some rumor!

Jack

---

I agree that is QUITE THE UNSUBSTANTIATED RUMOUR

...BUT....

since my contacts within the Netherlands and Germany
have been 90% right in the past, I am going to give
them the benefit of my doubt.

If I see a decently produced video and
some real-world photos then we can go
from CR-5 to CR-1.

from a BUSINESS STANDPOINT, i think this
makes perfect sense because at a 10 000 to
16 000 Euro price point, I do know a LOT of
professional sports/wildlife photographers
would almost immediately switch to ANY
25 fps 50 megapixel camera!

And if such a 25 fps 50 megapixel camera
came from Canon in a pro-level 1Dxmk2-like
body style then Nikon and Sony might as well
pack up and go home, as Canon would just
OWN ALL OF THAT MARKET!

It's the 25 fps that kills it!
It's the one feature in any
Medium Format sensor that
would cause Canon to take
over almost ALL Sports/Wildlife
still/video imaging within two years!

If this "New Canon MF Camera Rumour"
is true at 25 fps 50 megapixels at 4:4:4
16 bits per channel RAW and JPEG-2000
Wavelet image file formats, then everyone
else BECOMES DEAD IN THE WATER !!!!!!!!!!!

I can barely keep the excitement in check
until after NAB 2017 when this "Video Leak"
is purported to be released!

I'm Crossing My Fingers!
 

rs

EOS R
Dec 29, 2012
1,024
0
UK
I thought the agreement was all of these shenanigans finish at noon on the 1st?
 

HarryFilm

EOS RP
Jun 6, 2016
712
166
rs said:
I thought the agreement was all of these shenanigans finish at noon on the 1st?

---

Please be aware I have 25+ years of high end
video and still photography experience going back
into the analogue 1980's! I also have DECADES of
CPU/GPU systems design experience and also
DECADES of low-level software systems
programming experience.

I think it is QUITE LIKELY I might just
have A LOT MORE INDUSTRY CONTACTS
AND EXPERIENCE than you do when
it comes to the electronics world
rumour mill. My contacts run DEEP
into the LARGEST electronics and
aerospace companies in the world!
Some are at the SENIOR-MOST
EXECUTIVE SUITE LEVEL!

At this point, I am going to give my
Netherlands and Germany contacts
the BENEFIT of the doubt.

While this rumour is TRULY UNSUBSTANTIATED,
I will STILL give it some HIGH PERSONAL CREDENCE
due to the seniority of said contacts being employed by
and/or affiliated with notable users and purchasers of
very high end video/still photography equipment!
Since the purchasing budgets of these concerns
TEND to run into the tens of millions of Euros,
I think they might HAVE AN INSIDE TRACK as
to what might REALLY be coming down the pipeline!

And this being the "CanonRUMORS" website,
I will stick with my contacts having valid enough
information that Canon MF 25fps 50/120 megapixel
large-sensor camera systems coming real-soon-now,
is a rumour that just MIGHT HAVE some CR-1 or
CR-2 water in the bucket!

Again, we shall see and may the
Pudding Proof be a very tasty one!