Canon will release an APS-C RF mount camera(s) later in 2022 [CR3]

dlee13

Canon EOS R6
May 13, 2014
252
144
Australia
WWW.photosbydlee.com
A generic EF-M -> RF adapter would only be possible with optical elements that'd make it heavy and expensive and reduce optical quality, as well as changing the focal length (or, theoretically, losing infinity focus). Not likely to happen. Perhaps a 3rd party will make one, but don't expect miracles from the quality.

If, however, Canon were to design a new body with that in mind, they could make it work by making the sensor move outwards when the adapter is used. That would be the perfect solution for EF-M lens owners. It would, however, be a pretty complex design with fragile moving parts. Even less likely than the above.

A third possibility would be a design where the mount is removable, i.e., you could put in either RF or M mount as needed. In effect it'd be a meta-mount for mounting different mounts. Technically it should be possible, but the likelyhood of Canon doing that is far in the fantasy land.

The fourth hope is that my imagination is lacking and Canon pulls a rabbit out of their hat and makes it happen in some way I can't think of. :)
Yeah so sadly chances are slim to none...

I'm still more fond of the idea that they make the EF-M line the new Rebel line then make a high end R7 body to be used with FF RF lenses.
 

kaihp

EOS R
CR Pro
Mar 19, 2012
1,052
205
The Most Ancient Kingdom of Denmark
Locally I can't think of one major electronics shop with a single camera on display. I don't mean a DSLR I mean ANYTHING that isn't a smartphone.

The only place you can get a DSLR is a dedicated camera shop or online. Most of those are pro level shops. The consumer shops have mostly died.

That doesn't sound like a desirable large market.
For Denmark, the number of dedicated camera shops have plummeted to have become be a rarity. There are two stores in all of Denmark that are carrying the professional cameras like the EOS R3 and the Big Whites. Similar for Nikon's pro cameras & lenses.

If you want to buy a (pro)consumer DSLR, the easiest thing is to go to the large IT & white-goods chains like www.elgiganten.dk and www.power.dk who have both physical and online stores.
So the situation here is quite the opposite of what you are seeing. (I'm not trying to say that you're wrong; just observing that the situation here is different).
 
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TravelerNick

EOS 90D
Dec 4, 2020
117
66
For Denmark, the number of dedicated camera shops have plummeted to have become be a rarity. There are two stores in all of Denmark that are carrying the professional cameras like the EOS R3 and the Big Whites. Similar for Nikon's pro cameras & lenses.

If you want to buy a (pro)consumer DSLR, the easiest thing is to go to the large IT & white-goods chains like www.elgiganten.dk and www.power.dk who have both physical and online stores.
So the situation here is quite the opposite of what you are seeing. (I'm not trying to say that you're wrong; just observing that the situation here is different).

I just checked the mediaworld website (Italian version of MediaMart) they are showing zero cameras in stock at my local shop. The few you can order will take two weeks to show up.
 
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AlP

EOS R5
CR Pro
Sep 5, 2018
61
100
RF-s lenses will be an interesting market... low cost kit lenses are needed and needs to be much less than the USD1300 RP+ 24-105mm f/4-7.1

The biggest issue is wide angle. Any rumoured 10mm+ lens is likely to be a RF equivalent for the EF11-24mm L series but an equivalent EF-s 10-22mm would be missing. Of course, adapted EF-s lenses could be the solution or at least a welded adapter to the current EF-s 10-22mm similar to the RF 400/600mm variants
Where I live the canon RF 50 f/1.8 is only slightly more expensive than the EF-S 24 mm f/2.8 and cheaper than the EF-M 22 f/2. The cheapest Canon lens is the EF 50 mm f/1.8 (I am aware that those are different focal lengths, I am just taking the cheapest canon lens for each mount). While it's true that the RF 24-105 f/4-7.1 is about twice as expensive (but still not so expensive in absolute terms) than the EF-S 18-55 f/3.5-5.6 (current prices, not launch prices), there isn't a lot of space in between.

Of course that difference can be a showstopper for those who are looking for the lowest possible price, but with sufficient potential sales numbers and some further simplifications I think Canon would be able to bring one or two very basic full-frame RF-zooms to market, or just lower the price of the existing one. If that happens it might not make sense to have a dedicated line of lenses.
 

AlanF

Stay at home
CR Pro
Aug 16, 2012
9,083
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Worth considering for BIF then, where the light weight will reduce muscle fatigue. The "budget" RF lenses are surprisingly good - my 800mm F11 can't quite match my EF 100-400mm and 1.4x iii combo (wide open at F8 with extender) for sharpness, but is a lot better than I had expected for the price. A friend of mine is considering the RF100-400mm so I'll direct him to Gordon's review.

Strange that the 600mm and 800mm F11 lenses can only use the large square AF zone, if the full frame area can be used at F11 with the RF 100-400mm & 1.4x combo.
How are you comparing the 100-400mm II with the 800mm f/11? If you are looking at a distant bird then, the 800mm should beat the 400, even with the TC hands down from the same distance, which I find. If, on the other hand, you stand at half the distance with the 100-400 so that the image is the same size on the sensor, the 100-400 will be significantly better.
 

vangelismm

EOS 90D
Jul 28, 2015
147
91
Slow rumors news this weeks.
The last engagement topic was R1, so it time for the R APS-C.
See you guys in a few weeks when R1 rumors is back in rotation.
 
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mdcmdcmdc

7Dii, M5, 100 (film), α6400
CR Pro
Sep 4, 2020
137
185
Slow rumors news this weeks.
The last engagement topic was R1, so it time for the R APS-C.
See you guys in a few weeks when R1 rumors is back in rotation.

Don't forget the other common topics in the we-need-more-clicks cycle:

- Software update coming
- Lens roadmap update
- Cinema EOS (yawn)
- Patents (fun to see people freak out)
- Stock notice at Adorama
- Somebody posted a review of a Canon product somewhere
 

Kit.

EOS 5D Mark IV
Apr 25, 2011
2,217
1,531
Locally I can't think of one major electronics shop with a single camera on display. I don't mean a DSLR I mean ANYTHING that isn't a smartphone.

The only place you can get a DSLR is a dedicated camera shop or online. Most of those are pro level shops. The consumer shops have mostly died.

That doesn't sound like a desirable large market.
Here in Munich, I can even see EOS R6 in stock at some electronics retailers (Saturn in the city center in particular).
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
26,390
5,130
A generic EF-M -> RF adapter would only be possible with optical elements that'd make it heavy and expensive and reduce optical quality, as well as changing the focal length (or, theoretically, losing infinity focus). Not likely to happen. Perhaps a 3rd party will make one, but don't expect miracles from the quality.

If, however, Canon were to design a new body with that in mind, they could make it work by making the sensor move outwards when the adapter is used. That would be the perfect solution for EF-M lens owners. It would, however, be a pretty complex design with fragile moving parts. Even less likely than the above.

A third possibility would be a design where the mount is removable, i.e., you could put in either RF or M mount as needed. In effect it'd be a meta-mount for mounting different mounts. Technically it should be possible, but the likelyhood of Canon doing that is far in the fantasy land.

The fourth hope is that my imagination is lacking and Canon pulls a rabbit out of their hat and makes it happen in some way I can't think of. :)
Nice engineering solutions that have about zero chance of being implemented to adapt lenses costing a few hundred dollars.
 

entoman

wildlife photography
May 8, 2015
561
664
UK
How are you comparing the 100-400mm II with the 800mm f/11? If you are looking at a distant bird then, the 800mm should beat the 400, even with the TC hands down from the same distance, which I find. If, on the other hand, you stand at half the distance with the 100-400 so that the image is the same size on the sensor, the 100-400 will be significantly better.
It's the nearest comparison that I can make, with the gear I own, i.e. EF 100-400mm Mkii, 1.4x Mkiii extender and RF 800mm F11.

So I'm comparing RF 800mm F11 full size image with EF 100-400mm & 1.4x wide open (560mm F8), with the latter cropped to give the same field area as the 800mm.

Despite all the negatives (i.e. zoom at maximum focal length, wide open, with an extender) multiple tests show this combo gives sharper images than the RF 800mm (although the latter is of course much lighter, and a lot cheaper). The zoom set-up gives me anything from 140mm F6.3 to 560mm F8, a much closer MFD, full area AF with tracking, and sharper images when cropped to the same size as I'd get with 800mm.

I don't have the 2x EF extender, which would give 800mm F11 on the zoom, but I suspect that the RF800mm would be sharper, as the 2x extender has a bad reputation for image quality.
 

entoman

wildlife photography
May 8, 2015
561
664
UK
Here in Munich, I can even see EOS R6 in stock at some electronics retailers (Saturn in the city center in particular).
3 or 4 years ago you could walk into several general electronics stores, or into duty-free electronics outlets at London airports, and find a wide range of DSLR and MILC bodies and lenses from Sony, Nikon and Canon on display. I often spent a hour or so playing with various body/lens combinations at Heathrow airport while waiting for a plane.

Nowadays it's very difficult to find anything other than a smartphone in a duty-free shop or a general electronics store. More or less the only way to handle a camera before purchase is to visit a major camera store such as Jessops, but even there the range available is quite limited and they have to order in anything "unusual" like a macro lens.

This is a great shame because it forces many people to shop "blind" on-line, and rely on the often biased reviews on the internet. It's possible of course to hire before buying, but there are only AFAIK 3 or 4 rental companies in the UK, and rental prices are high enough to prevent most people from going that route.
 
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slclick

iPhone 2
Dec 17, 2013
4,646
3,046
3 or 4 years ago you could walk into several general electronics stores, or into duty-free electronics outlets at London airports, and find a wide range of DSLR and MILC bodies and lenses from Sony, Nikon and Canon on display. I often spent a hour or so playing with various body/lens combinations at Heathrow airport while waiting for a plane.

Nowadays it's very difficult to find anything other than a smartphone in a duty-free shop or a general electronics store. More or less the only way to handle a camera before purchase is to visit a major camera store such as Jessops, but even there the range available is quite limited and they have to order in anything "unusual" like a macro lens.

This is a great shame because it forces many people to shop "blind" on-line, and rely on the often biased reviews on the internet. It's possible of course to hire before buying, but there are only AFAIK 3 or 4 rental companies in the UK, and rental prices are high enough to prevent most people from going that route.
I agree with this purchasing viewpoint and in actual use something I noticed while in Disney and CA adventure for three days last week....

Packed to the gills, both parks, in 3 days I saw ONE dslr and ONE milc camera. I surmised a thing or two as you could imagine.
 

AlanF

Stay at home
CR Pro
Aug 16, 2012
9,083
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It's the nearest comparison that I can make, with the gear I own, i.e. EF 100-400mm Mkii, 1.4x Mkiii extender and RF 800mm F11.

So I'm comparing RF 800mm F11 full size image with EF 100-400mm & 1.4x wide open (560mm F8), with the latter cropped to give the same field area as the 800mm.

Despite all the negatives (i.e. zoom at maximum focal length, wide open, with an extender) multiple tests show this combo gives sharper images than the RF 800mm (although the latter is of course much lighter, and a lot cheaper). The zoom set-up gives me anything from 140mm F6.3 to 560mm F8, a much closer MFD, full area AF with tracking, and sharper images when cropped to the same size as I'd get with 800mm.

I don't have the 2x EF extender, which would give 800mm F11 on the zoom, but I suspect that the RF800mm would be sharper, as the 2x extender has a bad reputation for image quality.
Don't take this personally, but I think you have a poor copy of the 800/11. I've owned 3 copies of the 100-400mm II, borrowed an 800/11 for a week before buying my present one, and both 800s are sharper than the best of my 100-400mm II ± 1.4xTCs cropped to the same size.
 
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neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
26,390
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Locally I can't think of one major electronics shop with a single camera on display. I don't mean a DSLR I mean ANYTHING that isn't a smartphone.

The only place you can get a DSLR is a dedicated camera shop or online. Most of those are pro level shops. The consumer shops have mostly died.

That doesn't sound like a desirable large market.
Sad for you. There’s a Best Buy (nationwide big box electronics retailer, computers, dishwashers, etc.) 3 km from my house that has the R, R5, R6, 5DIV, M-series and Rebel/xxxD, and many Canon lenses including L-series in stock. They have display counters a few meters long for each of Csnon, Nikon and Sony (with a small area of Panasonic and Fuji).

There are >20 Best Buy stores in my state, I’ve been in 3-4 of them and all have a dedicated camera section. There is also a camera store chain around here (Hunts Photo), and a few independent camera shops as well (there were more of those a few years ago).
 

entoman

wildlife photography
May 8, 2015
561
664
UK
Don't take this personally, but I think you have a poor copy of the 800/11. I've owned 3 copies of the 100-400mm II, borrowed an 800/11 for a week before buying my present one, and both 800s are sharper than the best of my 100-400mm II ± 1.4xTCs cropped to the same size.
Quite possible, or alternatively I might have a very good copy of the EF100-400mm and 1.4x. Either way I'm happy, as the difference is only apparent when pixel peeping.

In the UK, birds are typically small and nervous, so I tend to use the RF 800mm for fairly static birds unless the light is really poor (although I wouldn't use it for BIF, because I like to be able to zoom out to locate the bird easily, and then zoom in for the shot).

In the tropics or on safaris I've found that I use both equally as often, as I'm usually in a hide or a vehicle, and don't have to walk about carrying a lot of gear. My next long-haul trip is in March, so I've got plenty of time to decide on gear replacements/upgrades. Most likely I'll sell the EF 100-400mm and 1.4x, and get the RF 100-500mm, and continue to use the RF800mm where I need something longer.

Incidentally, a point that many birders miss, especially in the tropics, is that the effect of atmospheric haze and heat haze can contribute hugely to image degradation, so it's nearly always best to get as close to the subject as possible, rather than take the seemingly easy route of using long focal lengths. So when I'm using the 800mm it is usually for small birds at near the MFD of the 800mm - another situation where the much shorter MFD of the zoom outweighs the weight saving of the 800mm.
 

AlanF

Stay at home
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Aug 16, 2012
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Quite possible, or alternatively I might have a very good copy of the EF100-400mm and 1.4x. Either way I'm happy, as the difference is only apparent when pixel peeping.

In the UK, birds are typically small and nervous, so I tend to use the RF 800mm for fairly static birds unless the light is really poor (although I wouldn't use it for BIF, because I like to be able to zoom out to locate the bird easily, and then zoom in for the shot).

In the tropics or on safaris I've found that I use both equally as often, as I'm usually in a hide or a vehicle, and don't have to walk about carrying a lot of gear. My next long-haul trip is in March, so I've got plenty of time to decide on gear replacements/upgrades. Most likely I'll sell the EF 100-400mm and 1.4x, and get the RF 100-500mm, and continue to use the RF800mm where I need something longer.

Incidentally, a point that many birders miss, especially in the tropics, is that the effect of atmospheric haze and heat haze can contribute hugely to image degradation, so it's nearly always best to get as close to the subject as possible, rather than take the seemingly easy route of using long focal lengths. So when I'm using the 800mm it is usually for small birds at near the MFD of the 800mm - another situation where the much shorter MFD of the zoom outweighs the weight saving of the 800mm.
I did point out I have had 3 copies of the 100-400mm II (and 3 EF 1.4xIII), and 2 copies of the 800 f/11, so I think your alternative is less likely, especially as Roger Cicala found the 100-400mm II had the least copy variation of lenses he had tested up to that point. Also, which may be useful advice, as I have just told sanj who is kitting up for an Africa trip, the 100-500mm II + 2x TC at 1000mm outperformed the 800mm f/11 so you will save weight and space by taking an RF 2x instead of it if you have the RF 100-500mm.
 

InchMetric

Switched from Nikon. Still zooming the wrong way.
CR Pro
Jun 22, 2021
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If the Canons CEOs read this site and maybe a few others, they KNOW that people want an R-ASPC camera. They could save the money for an expansive marketing research team, spent this cash for developing one or two lenses for each APS-C line (M and RF) and make everybody happy :)
A couple dozen nerds on the internet does not a market make. Canon knows far more than reading a discussion site could tell them.
 
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reefroamer

EOS 90D
CR Pro
Jun 21, 2014
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If the Canons CEOs read this site and maybe a few others, they KNOW that people want an R-ASPC camera. They could save the money for an expansive marketing research team, spent this cash for developing one or two lenses for each APS-C line (M and RF) and make everybody happy :)
They would know that SOME people want an R-APSC camera. Based on their internal sales figures for the 7D and 7D2, plus their market research, they probably have a pretty good idea of how many R7-type bodies they would sell. Any CEO who makes business decisions based on Internet forums such as this probably will have a short tenure in his/her job.
 
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takesome1

EOS 5D Mark IV
Aug 23, 2013
1,557
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None your business Alaska
IF a big company tries to enter a market segment and has limited success over time whilst bleeding R&D and marketing dollars that they could use elsewhere then they will sell the business unit off to the highest bidder. The corporate world is littered with examples. For instance, I expect Sony to sell or close down their mobile phone manufacturing soon. Betamax and the many Sony proprietary memory/recording formats have died a slow death.
Sony would likely retain the image sensor business even if they sold their camera business due to their market strength (and I assume profitability)

Sony is already researching sensors, that is one of the biggest R&D items for a camera so they would be doing that R&D anyway.
I think your logic is flawed in this particular situation.

Talking Sony's success and failures, Betamax came out in 1975 and VHS in 1977.
Being first and the only one in the market doesn't guarantee success and market share.

This discussion is like Marvel's latest cartoon "What If"?
Fortunately we live in this universe.
 
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