Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR2]

Canon Rumors Guy

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It’s rumoured that the upcoming full frame mirrorless camera from Canon will have a 30.4mp sensor, which is the same resolution as the EOS 5D Mark IV. It’s also been said that the camera will be an “EOS 5D Mark IV without a mirror”.</p>
<p>We’ve now been told by a couple of people that this will not be the case. The 30.4mp sensor (which we haven’t confirmed with certainty) will be “very different than what is found in the EOS 5D Mark IV”. We would expect as such, as marketing a new mirrorless camera with a 2 year old sensor would be extremely difficult and would give a presumption that the camera would be “dead on arrival”. Simply removing a mirror from a DSLR that one might actually own isn’t the kind of sales pitch that most Canon shooters would embrace. In an ideal world, Canon would like you to have both cameras in your kit.</p>
<p>We’re also told that the camera will have an articulating screen, which isn’t found on the EOS 5D Mark IV as well as the latest DIGIC processor. Dual SD card slots are also highly likely. One source has claimed that the camera will have DPAF 4K (pretty obvious), but that the crop will be “significantly different” than what is found on the EOS 5D Mark IV.</p>
<p>We have an update on an announcement date. We’re told that Canon will have announcements the second week of September from a very good source, this <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/announcements-coming-the-first-week-of-september-cr2/">contradicts the previous post that we’ll see announcements</a> in the first week of the month. It is highly possible that Canon will have multiple announcements ahead of Photokina, as we’re expecting a lot of cameras and lenses to be announced around that time. Photokina begins on September 26, 2018.</p>
<p>Please take all of this with a grain of salt, as the information coming in is quite vague.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/deal-canon-eos-5d-mark-iv-w-free-battery-grip-printer-and-mic/">The Canon EOS 5D Mark IV bundle is still live starting at $3099</a> (Reg $4113)</p>
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ahsanford

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Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Not buying it (this rumor).

- A
 

ahsanford

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Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

ahsanford said:
Not buying it (this rumor).

- A

Reason:

Canon made it's big on-chip ADC sensor migration already and that's really the only way you make a sensor to get a big jump in performance these days. A next-gen 30 MP FF sensor that's only 2 years newer won't be anywhere near better enough to look meaningfully better than the 5D4 sensor. It would get similar sensor test scores and still be 30.4 MP --> folks will still see it as a 5D4 sensor. I don't think that's a bad thing, mind you, but going to the trouble of putting out a 3% better sensor at the same resolution to avoid looking bad... will just look bad. So why do it? Just put a 5D4 sensor in there. It wouldn't be dead on arrival at all (that entire statement screams fanboy / internet denizen to me).

And if Canon actually did believe another 30 MP sensor would be perceived badly, DOA etc. in 2018, they'd just bump a res a bit to make it look newer. Go 36. Whatever. Even a slight bump in MP will have a more positive initial market perception of 'being new' than a fraction of a stop high ISO or DR (that won't materialize until initial testing comes out months later) would be.

- A
 

Canon Rumors Guy

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Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

ahsanford said:
Not buying it (this rumor).

- A

.... and that's why I kind of do. People are expecting the "same ol' Canon". There has been a fair bit of public comments by Canon that they're going to change the way they do things going forward. I hear more of it from other sources as well.
 

ahsanford

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Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Canon Rumors said:
ahsanford said:
Not buying it (this rumor).

- A

.... and that's why I kind of do. People are expecting the "same ol' Canon". There has been a fair bit of public comments by Canon that they're going to change the way they do things going forward. I hear more of it from other sources as well.

Even if Canon changes its culture and takes a page from Sony's playbook, the tone and the rationale of this is wrong. Nope. Not buying it.

- A
 

fullstop

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Apr 23, 2018
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Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

ahsanford said:
Not buying it (this rumor).
- A

which part?

* not the 5D IV sensor? They better! And 30.4 MP sounds good. Not even "conservative Canon" would dare to do come with 5D 4 sensor, not with Nikon also coming soon with mirrorless FF.

* Dual SD UHS II slots? Hopefully! helps to keep camera body compact. :)

* Better DIGIC than 5D 4? ... DIGIC 8 should be sure, only open question: 1 or 2?

* 4k with (continuos) DP-AF? Won't look good if no. Highly credible.

* 1st or 2nd week of September? Before photokina and just in time for year-end busines - if they have finished products to sell. Sounds credible as well.

I find it rather strange that none of all those sources can tell anything about the most crucial element: lens mount. There must be quite a number of people who know this by now.
 

Canon Rumors Guy

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Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

ahsanford said:
ahsanford said:
Not buying it (this rumor).

- A

Reason:

Canon made it's big on-chip ADC sensor migration already and that's really the only way you make a sensor to get a big jump in performance these days. A next-gen 30 MP FF sensor that's only 2 years newer won't be anywhere near better enough to look meaningfully better than the 5D4 sensor. It would get similar sensor test scores and still be 30.4 MP --> folks will still see it as a 5D4 sensor. I don't think that's a bad thing, mind you, but going to the trouble of putting out a 3% better sensor at the same resolution to avoid looking bad... will just look bad. So why do it? Just put a 5D4 sensor in there. It wouldn't be dead on arrival at all (that entire statement screams fanboy / internet denizen to me).

And if Canon actually did believe another 30 MP sensor would be perceived badly, DOA etc. in 2018, they'd just bump a res a bit to make it look newer. Go 36. Whatever. Even a slight bump in MP will have a more positive initial market perception of 'being new' than a fraction of a stop high ISO or DR (that won't materialize until initial testing comes out months later) would be.

- A

If it's the same sensor, that will be the first line in every preview and review and not in a good way. Especially if we're dealing with a new mount. Why on earth would anyone buy it (unless the video performance is class leading), when they can get a 5D4 with a native EF mount?

That said, I wish I trusted what I've been told about the mount.
 

Don Haines

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Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Canon Rumors said:
ahsanford said:
Not buying it (this rumor).

- A

.... and that's why I kind of do. People are expecting the "same ol' Canon". There has been a fair bit of public comments by Canon that they're going to change the way they do things going forward. I hear more of it from other sources as well.


Perhaps they are driving the two halves of the dual pixels at different gain and combining in post to get more DR (16 stops?)... who knows?
 

ahsanford

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Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

fullstop said:
I find it rather strange that none of all those sources can tell anything about the most crucial element: lens mount. There must be quite a number of people who know this by now.

All day. This.

- A
 

ahsanford

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Aug 16, 2012
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Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Don Haines said:
Perhaps they are driving the two halves of the dual pixels at different gain and combining in post to get more DR (16 stops?)... who knows?

Sure. So the only way this makes sense and doesn't look like a '1.03x as good sensor as the 5D4' is some core technology bump that it enjoys.

DPRAW tech funneled into an easily attainable higher base ISO DR?

Backside illumination?

The first camera with QPAF?

Then sure, this might have legs. But as written, this seems 'I don't buy it' flavored.

- A
 

Canon Rumors Guy

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Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

ahsanford said:
fullstop said:
I find it rather strange that none of all those sources can tell anything about the most crucial element: lens mount. There must be quite a number of people who know this by now.

All day. This.

- A

I have been told, but I'm not reporting on it until I'm sure.
 

edoorn

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Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Canon has had a lot of other sensor tech patents in the last few years right? Would not be surprised if they would be able to improve noticeably further in two years time.

if this rumour (sorry, British spelling? :D) is true, it does sound pretty good, spec-wise. A higher mpix body would be great for my hobby (wildlife) but 30mpix would actually be best for my work (weddings, reportage, portraits). Which unfortunately is still needed to fund my wildlife trips ;D

A lot will depend on other details as well. How is the AF tracking / eye AF function? Silent shutter? Interesting times for sure!
 

bokehmon22

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Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Canon Rumors said:
ahsanford said:
fullstop said:
I find it rather strange that none of all those sources can tell anything about the most crucial element: lens mount. There must be quite a number of people who know this by now.

All day. This.

- A



I have been told, but I'm not reporting on it until I'm sure.

Blink once if it's a new mount with adapter for EF lens

Blink twice if it's EF native mount.
 

ahsanford

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Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

bokehmon22 said:
Canon Rumors said:
I have been told, but I'm not reporting on it until I'm sure.

Blink once if it's a new mount with adapter for EF lens
Blink twice if it's EF native mount.

If it rhymes with 'Bull Be Deaf', give me an 80s style high school hallway acknowledgement head nod. I'll spot you.

- A
 

3kramd5

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Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

ahsanford said:
Don Haines said:
Perhaps they are driving the two halves of the dual pixels at different gain and combining in post to get more DR (16 stops?)... who knows?

Sure. So the only way this makes sense and doesn't look like a '1.03x as good sensor as the 5D4' is some core technology bump that it enjoys.

DPRAW tech funneled into an easily attainable higher base ISO DR?

Backside illumination?

The first camera with QPAF?

Then sure, this might have legs. But as written, this seems 'I don't buy it' flavored.

- A

QP or alternating rotated DP would be significant.
 

Kit.

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Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

ahsanford said:
Not buying it (this rumor).

- A
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20160233259.pdf

Fig.4 and Fig.5 are especially interesting. But that means a thin mount (potentially an extremely thin mount).

Could also be a RCCB sensor with "Canon colors". And, of course, 4k resampling for tighter crop.
 

CanonFanBoy

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Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

It will be great no matter what it is. I am a true fanboy. Love Canon. Not that Canon can do no wrong, but that Canon's products have been very good to me. I had no idea which manufacturer to choose when I bought my first DSLR (Rebel XSi). Just so glad, by dumb luck, I chose Canon. Love their DSLR line. Love the lenses. Canon will do just fine. Great company!
 

ahsanford

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Aug 16, 2012
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Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Don Haines said:
Perhaps they are driving the two halves of the dual pixels at different gain and combining in post to get more DR (16 stops?)... who knows?

We'll wait to see, of course, but my feet are firmly on the ground here.

Doing the crudest of high-level passes at DXO (yeah, I know) to make a point -- and Bill from PTP, please chime in if you are listening -- see below. It's crude as all hell, but here are all FF sensors tested at DXO over time.

Landscape = their base ISO DR score, and Sports = their SNR method of saying 'uncle' on how high the ISO can go (which admittedly is super subjective). But bear with me.

Look at the trends. In high ISO, it took the better part of 8 years to gain one stop of higher ISO (by very rough eyeballed trend). In Base ISO DR, we've enjoyed a lovely little +1-1.5 stop bump from the on-chip evolution but it hasn't exactly screamed ahead since. Consider: the (ageless) D800 sensor from 2012 is still within half a stop of the best FF sensors out there today.

Are there a s---ton of asterisks and nuances and methods glossed over with this? Sure. But in broad strokes, I'm not expecting a sensor phenomenon with Canon here.

- A
 

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amorse

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Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Canon Rumors said:
ahsanford said:
fullstop said:
I find it rather strange that none of all those sources can tell anything about the most crucial element: lens mount. There must be quite a number of people who know this by now.

All day. This.

- A

I have been told, but I'm not reporting on it until I'm sure.

Curved sensor, thin mount, small fast glass. Am I close? :eek:
 

ahsanford

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Aug 16, 2012
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Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

amorse said:
Canon Rumors said:
I have been told, but I'm not reporting on it until I'm sure.

Curved sensor, thin mount, small fast glass and all lenses are the same focal length to work with that specific sensor curve. Am I close? :eek:

Corrected. Now you've nailed it. ;)

- A
 
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