Coming firmware for Canon Cinema EOS C70 to have internal 12-bit Cinema RAW Light

padam

EOS R
Aug 26, 2015
1,263
925
V90 cards are more than capable to handle raw video. Look at blackmagic.

I saw the specs on the canon uk site before it got taken down. It has a 645Mbps raw data rate
So up to 4k30p only, no 4k60p? Or is that 10-bit instead of 12-bit at the same data rate?
 
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Mik

Nov 12, 2021
4
0
If it‘s like on the C200 then 24/25/30p in 12bit and 50/60p in 10bit. But we don‘t know yet.
 

jam05

R5, C70
Mar 12, 2019
576
382
I have had the C70 for a while and the form factor I one of things that has never fully jelled with me. Some days I love that it is smaller and more like a DSLR body than my old C300 and other days I wish it was a little bigger and had more of the C100/C200 style of Body. Ergonomically it's way better than trying to shoot with a R5 but not quite as ideal as the old C100 or C200 which were the sweet spot for me.
Never had either c100/c200. The C70 is perfect for my style of shootin
Hopefully this is an indication that the R5C could be priced aggressively. If the R5C was close to the price of the C70 on release it may reduce C70 sales as R5C has 8k, IBIS, better AF, full frame sensor, raw, takes photos and likely has a smaller body too. So people would potentially think ‘why would I pay any more for a C70?’ Hopefully this is Canon bolstering the C70 to justify it’s higher cost than the R5C?
Will not reduce C70 sales in 2022 that's for sure. A "B" or parallel camera. One shoots S35 and the other doesn't. One is Neflix certified, if that is a requirement from a Netflix Manager. How many creators with a sizeable budget will rush out and preorder a camera to be delivered maybe 6 months away in 2022? It fits the niche for those R5 photograher/videograhers that would prefer their backup camera to be setup to record unlimited 8k internally.
 

PowerMike G5

I'm New Here
Sep 11, 2018
20
17
Hopefully this is an indication that the R5C could be priced aggressively. If the R5C was close to the price of the C70 on release it may reduce C70 sales as R5C has 8k, IBIS, better AF, full frame sensor, raw, takes photos and likely has a smaller body too. So people would potentially think ‘why would I pay any more for a C70?’ Hopefully this is Canon bolstering the C70 to justify it’s higher cost than the R5C?
Like mentioned, the C70 has a lot more features designed around video production. And that DGO sensor is already a big differentiator between the 2. The R5 has 8K and full frame, but the overall quality of the sensor for video is much better on the C70/C300 MIII. Especially as it is designed specifically for video, vs having to do hybrid responsibilities like the R5 sensor has to do.
 
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RayValdez360

Soon to be the greatest.
Jun 6, 2012
767
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Like mentioned, the C70 has a lot more features designed around video production. And that DGO sensor is already a big differentiator between the 2. The R5 has 8K and full frame, but the overall quality of the sensor for video is much better on the C70/C300 MIII. Especially as it is designed specifically for video, vs having to do hybrid responsibilities like the R5 sensor has to do.
what makes the cinema cameras better for video image quality wise. Is it the sensor, the software, or the processor. isn't the r5 more advanced but just geared towards photo more. I mean outside of the DGO
 
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CanonGrunt

C70
CR Pro
Jan 28, 2012
262
169
Like mentioned, the C70 has a lot more features designed around video production. And that DGO sensor is already a big differentiator between the 2. The R5 has 8K and full frame, but the overall quality of the sensor for video is much better on the C70/C300 MIII. Especially as it is designed specifically for video, vs having to do hybrid responsibilities like the R5 sensor has to do.
That DGO sensor is my favorite part. Can pretty much see in the dark with fast primes.
 
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Jan 15, 2022
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Still hoping they add a timelapse function to the C70. It’s a small thing, but the ability to do a basic timelapse anytime I’m shooting would be great. Maybe in this update? (In raw it would be even better!)
 
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PowerMike G5

I'm New Here
Sep 11, 2018
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17
what makes the cinema cameras better for video image quality wise. Is it the sensor, the software, or the processor. isn't the r5 more advanced but just geared towards photo more. I mean outside of the DGO
Usually a combination of all the above, plus far more usability and features from an ergonomics standpoint. A cinema camera has tons of ports, expandability, etc. outside of the technical capabilities. Look at a C300 Mark III - it can be applied to so many types of productions because of its sheer versatility in its body design, let alone its technical image quality like it's DGO sensor quality, internal raw, 4K/120P raw, etc.

The R5 may seem more advanced, but that's just from an optics standpoint (not glass lol). 8K, full frame, etc. are great, but at the compromise of having to serve a hybrid nature. The DGO sensor is purpose built for video. It's smaller at Super35, but only like under 9MP, so it has a much larger pixel pitch. It's also dual gain output which is essentially a real-time HDR recording from the sensor, vs the standard front side intake of the R5 sensor. Because of such, despite the FF sensor, it still has far less dynamic range than the Super35 DGO. It seems Clog3 already pushes the limits of that sensor, whereas Clog2 really is designed to exploit the added range from these video-specific sensors like the DGO one.

Like mentioned above, these DGO cinema cameras can see in the dark so cleanly. I've used an R5 and R6 as compliment B or C cameras on some shoots and although they are great that they can match the C300 MIII for some shot matching, you can see the difference in the images when you have to push them a bit. The R5/R6 get a lot noisier a lot faster and their higher ISO noise is certainly more prominent. The DGO sensor stays so clean for so long as you go up the ISO.

So just holistically, the whole system for a cinema camera is more purpose built, hence why you get much better video quality potential. It comes from both the better technical specs of the imaging system, combined with the ergonomics and expandability provided by the bodies of these cameras.
 
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CanonGrunt

C70
CR Pro
Jan 28, 2012
262
169
Usually a combination of all the above, plus far more usability and features from an ergonomics standpoint. A cinema camera has tons of ports, expandability, etc. outside of the technical capabilities. Look at a C300 Mark III - it can be applied to so many types of productions because of its sheer versatility in its body design, let alone its technical image quality like it's DGO sensor quality, internal raw, 4K/120P raw, etc.

The R5 may seem more advanced, but that's just from an optics standpoint (not glass lol). 8K, full frame, etc. are great, but at the compromise of having to serve a hybrid nature. The DGO sensor is purpose built for video. It's smaller at Super35, but only like under 9MP, so it has a much larger pixel pitch. It's also dual gain output which is essentially a real-time HDR recording from the sensor, vs the standard front side intake of the R5 sensor. Because of such, despite the FF sensor, it still has far less dynamic range than the Super35 DGO. It seems Clog3 already pushes the limits of that sensor, whereas Clog2 really is designed to exploit the added range from these video-specific sensors like the DGO one.

Like mentioned above, these DGO cinema cameras can see in the dark so cleanly. I've used an R5 and R6 as compliment B or C cameras on some shoots and although they are great that they can match the C300 MIII for some shot matching, you can see the difference in the images when you have to push them a bit. The R5/R6 get a lot noisier a lot faster and their higher ISO noise is certainly more prominent. The DGO sensor stays so clean for so long as you go up the ISO.

So just holistically, the whole system for a cinema camera is more purpose built, hence why you get much better video quality potential. It comes from both the better technical specs of the imaging system, combined with the ergonomics and expandability provided by the bodies of these cameras.
Absolutely. Also, most Canon Cinema Cameras have a native ISO of 800, while almost all DSLRs and Mirrorless camers start at the bottom, typically native at 100 ISO. That makes a huge difference when shooting in low light and the amount of noise you have to deal with.
 
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PowerMike G5

I'm New Here
Sep 11, 2018
20
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Absolutely. Also, most Canon Cinema Cameras have a native ISO of 800, while almost all DSLRs and Mirrorless camers start at the bottom, typically native at 100 ISO. That makes a huge difference when shooting in low light and the amount of noise you have to deal with.
This is a great point. They rate Clog 3's native ISO at 800 for the R5/R6 as well to get the maximum DR, but if you actually put that in practice, you see the noise a lot more in comparison to the same shot with the C70/C300 at the same ISO and Clog3, which is completely clean. It's primarily because Clog3 was designed for the cinema cameras first, so they take into account the native ISO of those cameras.

Canon is still suggesting using the same native ISO of 800 on the R5/R6 to maximize the dynamic range, but you are now having to shoot at 800 to maximize the DR benefits at the expense of the added noise.
 
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RayValdez360

Soon to be the greatest.
Jun 6, 2012
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This is a great point. They rate Clog 3's native ISO at 800 for the R5/R6 as well to get the maximum DR, but if you actually put that in practice, you see the noise a lot more in comparison to the same shot with the C70/C300 at the same ISO and Clog3, which is completely clean. It's primarily because Clog3 was designed for the cinema cameras first, so they take into account the native ISO of those cameras.

Canon is still suggesting using the same native ISO of 800 on the R5/R6 to maximize the dynamic range, but you are now having to shoot at 800 to maximize the DR benefits at the expense of the added noise.
c log 3 on the r5 is noisy at any iso. I wonder if it was rushed or it is a hardware issue. I mean if they tweaked it could it be as good as the c70 at least in c log 3. I am just wondering what is the real deal with the DR limits in Canon hybrid cameras.
 
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PowerMike G5

I'm New Here
Sep 11, 2018
20
17
c log 3 on the r5 is noisy at any iso. I wonder if it was rushed or it is a hardware issue. I mean if they tweaked it could it be as good as the c70 at least in c log 3. I am just wondering what is the real deal with the DR limits in Canon hybrid cameras.
It's primarily hardware. Remember, these Clog formats were originally designed to maximize the DR of their cinema-line sensors, which are very different than their photo/hybrid sensors. Clog3 was meant to be an in-between of their Clog and Clog2 profiles (and was built for the previous cinema sensor line before the DGO sensors came to market). It seems like Canon just ported over these log profiles to the R5/R6 and that's it. They weren't originally designed for these sensors, which just don't have the same DR and high ISO noise characteristics as the cinema sensors.

Take the R5 for example - in realtime it has to downsample that 45MPs to the resolutions needed for 4K or 8K which requires a lot of processing power, hence the overheating in those bodies, since they are passively cooled. Meanwhile the DGO sensor in the C70/C300 MIII are basically a 1-to-1 record for the 4K formats they have with active cooling in their bodies, hence why they have abilities like real-time DGO output at up to 60fps or unlimited 4K/120P recording, even in RAW. Their pixel pitch size and quality simply allow for a better output.

If you look at the FF sensor in the C500 MII, it's quality is far better than the R5's hybrid sensor for video too. And it's design is more in-line with the R5's FF, as its a standard front-side sensor. It's even from the previous generation of cinema sensors and not even DGO. All before the R5's newest sensor design.

All of this is because it was purpose built for video. It's FF and around 19MP, so it maximizes its sensor for its pixel pitch quality. And you see it when you look at its output.

It's amazing that the new DGO sensor matches or exceeds the FF from the C500 MII in many regards, despite the sensor size difference. It's a real testament to the quality of that sensor. What's exciting is when Canon applies DGO to a FF cinema sensor. Then we'll have the best of all worlds!
 
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CanonGrunt

C70
CR Pro
Jan 28, 2012
262
169
It's primarily hardware. Remember, these Clog formats were originally designed to maximize the DR of their cinema-line sensors, which are very different than their photo/hybrid sensors. Clog3 was meant to be an in-between of their Clog and Clog2 profiles (and was built for the previous cinema sensor line before the DGO sensors came to market). It seems like Canon just ported over these log profiles to the R5/R6 and that's it. They weren't originally designed for these sensors, which just don't have the same DR and high ISO noise characteristics as the cinema sensors.

Take the R5 for example - in realtime it has to downsample that 45MPs to the resolutions needed for 4K or 8K which requires a lot of processing power, hence the overheating in those bodies, since they are passively cooled. Meanwhile the DGO sensor in the C70/C300 MIII are basically a 1-to-1 record for the 4K formats they have with active cooling in their bodies, hence why they have abilities like real-time DGO output at up to 60fps or unlimited 4K/120P recording, even in RAW. Their pixel pitch size and quality simply allow for a better output.

If you look at the FF sensor in the C500 MII, it's quality is far better than the R5's hybrid sensor for video too. And it's design is more in-line with the R5's FF, as its a standard front-side sensor. It's even from the previous generation of cinema sensors and not even DGO. All before the R5's newest sensor design.

All of this is because it was purpose built for video. It's FF and around 19MP, so it maximizes its sensor for its pixel pitch quality. And you see it when you look at its output.

It's amazing that the new DGO sensor matches or exceeds the FF from the C500 MII in many regards, despite the sensor size difference. It's a real testament to the quality of that sensor. What's exciting is when Canon applies DGO to a FF cinema sensor. Then we'll have the best of all worlds!
Yes and yes to both posts there.
It would be nice if Canon made a log profile specifically for their mirrorless cameras like the r5 and r6 that’s at least an improvement over using repurposed cinema log profiles. However I imagine how ofter they add new models of those cameras vs cinema cameras might prove time consuming for them. Cinema cameras are not updated as often.

I know a lot of people that really like using the c70 with the Canon Speed booster to get the full frame field of view, though not the same depth of field of course, over forking out the cash for a c500 MK II set up. It’s really a nice comprise at a more budget friendly level if you’re able to go without that next level of cinema features, plus, DGO and full frame field of view. :)
 
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CanonGrunt

C70
CR Pro
Jan 28, 2012
262
169
Doesn't make sense to me either. I'm thinking that it will be an HDMI out upgrade. The R5 can export 12 bit Raw light through HDMI to an Atomos Ninja V+.
This screenshot is from Canon Uk’s website before they took it down. Took the screenshot myself.
 

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PowerMike G5

I'm New Here
Sep 11, 2018
20
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c log 3 on the r5 is noisy at any iso. I wonder if it was rushed or it is a hardware issue. I mean if they tweaked it could it be as good as the c70 at least in c log 3. I am just wondering what is the real deal with the DR limits in Canon hybrid cameras.
Here's a look at the power of the DGO sensor. Canon C300 Mark III DGO S35 vs Sony FX9 Full Frame.

5:04: Here they do a shadow lift to see how much noise comes in from extreme underexposure in RAW.

6:00: Here is the same thing in the compressed codecs.

Amazing especially given the sensor size.
 

JaimeAndresPhoto1

@JaimeAndresPhoto
Sep 21, 2020
16
15
www.JaimeAndresPhoto.com
I love my C70 and if this is real.... IT IS HUGE!!! At least for me!! I've been wanting to get my teeth on some raw footage and I even contemplated getting a Komodo, but that would be crazy and would not be able to afford it unless I see the C70, which does everything I need and more. This would be the cherry on top! I can see a lot C300 Mk3 owners being pissed as hell about this tho! LOL!