CR DeathMatch: DR, High ISO, Big MP, SoNikFuji, EVILs, IS, USM vs. STM, etc.

[mackguyver]

With all of the flame wars of late, I think we should have one thread to battle it all out for ultimate CR forum superiority. There's only two rules - try to back up what you say with evidence or examples, and nothing so bad that you get the thread locked... I'll start things off:

1. Are 18 Megapixels enough?

2. Why do we need more than 12 stops of DR?

3. What ISO setting will we need to take pictures on a new moon night? Do we really need anything better than the 1D X / 6D?

4. When will mirrorless camera take over? Bonus: When will they pass the Turing test???

5. Assuming Sony, Nikon, or Fuji had the same lens selection as Canon, and money was no issue, would you switch? Why?

6. Is IS necessary on wide angle lenses? Do you even use IS on your lenses?

7. What's better, USM or STM?

8. Should DSLRs have video or is just a waste of R&D & money?

9. Is DxOMark THE authority on lens and sensor measurements?

 

[Random Orbits]

How much popcorn did you make this time?

 

[dstppy]

I'll chime up and start by taking issue with things being all that bad ;D

A few notable trolls from 1/2 years back have gone away . . . neuro's gotten a little snarkier (but that's usually snarkier, especially when graphs are involved).

Hrm; maybe I'm getting better at ignoring things that say "DxOMark" :-X

 

[mackguyver]

dstppy, I'm sorry if I came off being negative, I don't think things are that bad, and it's been fun to watch (lots of popcorn popping...). I forgot DxOMark, will have to fix that ;D

 

[dstppy]

dstppy, I'm sorry if I came off being negative, I don't think things are that bad, and it's been fun to watch (lots of popcorn popping...). I forgot DxO, will have to fix that ;D

No, I got you were being funny (it is). I was maybe too subtle in disagreeing right away not strongly enough ;D

 

[Loswr]

1. Are 18 Megapixels enough?

Yes. Or no. It depends on your intended output, and how much you need to crop.

2. Why do we need more than 12 stops of DR?

Because Mikael says so. Because Sony and Nikon have it. The real question is how much more than 12 stops. The answer to that looks an awful lot like the lemniscate of Bernoulli.

3. What ISO setting will we need to take pictures on a new moon night? Do we really need anything better than the 1D X / 6D?

Doesn't matter. I want to take pictures in complete darkness. No moon. No stars. In a cave. With the lens cap on. Thank goodness I always bring a flash.

4. When will mirrorless camera take over? Bonus: When will they pass the Turing test???

Never. Before they can take over, much less demonstrate human intelligence, we'll have long since had wireless data chips hardwired to our cerebral cortices, and be able to save mental images directly to external bubble drives.

5. Assuming Sony, Nikon, or Fuji had the same lens selection as Canon, and money was no issue, would you switch? Why?

Switch? No, if money was no issue I'd just own all of them. Phase One, Hasselblad, and Pentax MF, too.

6. Is IS necessary on wide angle lenses? Do you even use IS on your lenses?

Yes, and yes. Not sure VR or OS are needed, though, at least on the lenses I own.

7. What's better, USM or STM?

Micromotor arc form drive. I want to hear the gears turn so I know the focus is working.

8. Should DSLRs have video or is just a waste of R&D & money?

Yes, they should have video. I don't use it, but what the heck, throw it in.

9. Is DxOMark THE authority on lens and sensor measurements?

Yes. Except whey they're wrong.

There's only two rules - try to back up what you say with evidence or examples, and nothing so bad that you get the thread locked...

Almost forgot about Da Rulez.

Rule 1: I've given evidence and examples. They're all in my 13173-and-counting posts. This may help.

Rule 2: This thread will undoubedly fall victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia," but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never quote The Princess Bride in a CR Forum thread, it's a sure way to get a thread locked."

 

[lion rock]

Must be a very slow Monday at the office, :.
quote Dr Neuro: " ... No, if money was no issue I'd just own all of them. Phase One, Hasselblad, and Pentax MF, too." I like!
On IS: May be it should combine Sony's in-camera stabilization with Canon's IS. People with tremors may be able to use such combination to take tack sharp hand held long exposure photos.
-r

 

[Famateur]

Rule 2: This thread will undoubedly fall victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia," but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never quote The Princess Bride in a CR Forum thread, it's a sure way to get a thread locked."

LOL...I clearly can't choose the thread in front of me!







...but I will anyway.


#1: Yes, for now. In the long run, I'd love to see as many pixels as possible as long as:

[list type=decimal]
[*]It does not take us backward in low-light performance
[*]Processing power and storage capacities increase to accommodate it
[*]Price for said power and space are reasonably affordable
[/list]

#2: Most of the time we don't. It would be nice, though, some day, to only rarely hit the technical limitations of exposure for a scene so more creativity can go into composition than exposure.

#3: No idea, as I've never taken any shots of the moon that are worthwhile. As for 1DX/6D, I'd love to even have them, so I don't ever think about wanting anything better!

#4: They'll take over when auto-focus can produce the accuracy and frame rates as the slapping mirror and dedicated AF sensor, and when electronic viewfinders meet the capabilities of optical viewfinders, and when battery life can keep up (or battery prices come down significantly), and when sales of DSLRs decline enough in favor of whatever mirrorless options are on the market, and... It will be a pretty good long time. My guess is no sooner than five years, and probably much, MUCH longer than that (at least professionally), depending on the rate of technological advancement. For consumers, probably much sooner than professionals...

#5: Nope. If money was no issue, I'd have the 1DX, 5DIII and a bevy of lenses that would make me happier than a pig in poo. Besides, I like the Canon menus and ergos...

#6: I love IS on the lenses I have, so why not have it in all of them? For those who shoot video, IS in wide lenses would probably be nice.

#7: Uh... I guess it depends on what's being captured. Photos? Probably USM. Video? Possibly STM...

#8: Yes. If it can be done, why not? I'd rather ignore a feature that I have and don't need than, even once, wish it was there to use but not have it.

#9: I've never actually looked at anything at DxOMark in any detail. The banter about it on this forum, however, has brought me much entertainment.

Oh crap -- the rules!

I don't have anything to back up my opinions. Damn. Oh well -- if any of my opinions match Neuro's, can we just use his citations and evidence? ;D

 

[ishdakuteb]

1. Are 18 Megapixels enough?
Ans: I would say "YES", but no objection if < 25...

2. Why do we need more than 12 stops of DR?
Ans: See all of the following
a. Lanscape photographers wants,
b. More capability has always been prefered as nice to have,
c. Recover wrong exposure images... (Note: Wrong exposure means image is different from expectation.)

3. What ISO setting will we need to take pictures on a new moon night? Do we really need anything better than the 1D X / 6D?
Ans: Have not been shooting moon before, but guess s16 rule is probabaly fine ISO-100 | f/16 | 1/100

4. When will mirrorless camera take over? Bonus: When will they pass the Turing test???
Ans: I do not know, but I do not like EVF, not fun and not challenge.

5. Assuming Sony, Nikon, or Fuji had the same lens selection as Canon, and money was no issue, would you switch? Why?
Ans: Not swiching but buy more (Note: Money was no issue) Nikon and Fuji only, Sony... Forget it...

6. Is IS necessary on wide angle lenses? Do you even use IS on your lenses?
Ans: Umm... See 2(b)

7. What's better, USM or STM?
Ans: Ooops, I do not know. All I know is STM is best for DPAF and benefit in live view only...

Note: I do not use live view. If I fail to take a picture, that is my fault and I need to learn more...

8. Should DSLRs have video or is just a waste of R&D & money?
Ans: Videographers will hunt me out if I am trying to answer this question LOL...

9. Is DxOMark THE authority on lens and sensor measurements?
Ans: Fun to read, but not to trust since involving with business. Never trust business people unless I have to

Note: I was raised in a business family

Regarding question number 4, mirrorless with EVF. I understand why people who use EVF shooting outside. It is simply because of sun bright. How about in door? Why don't they use liveview? It is bigger, brighter (might be), etc... Afaid to be called as point and shoot camera? LOL

Well, I have seen number of people do things kinda like this... Anyways, mirrorless is fun to play around with and have, but I will not trade my OVF for EVF unless I have both capability like Fujifilm, am able to select my focus in the crowd quick and precise...

Now, Canon please let me see 7D Mark II. I am fine with just seeing how it look like, been waiting so long...

 

[AvTvM]

Video in DSLRs was a really stupid idea all along and it still is a really stupid idea to put video into a mirrorslapper.
Video in mirrorless cameras is structurally not as bad an idea.
Video should nevertheless still cost significant extra money.
If for no other reason than this one: moving images should always be more expensive than stills images.
an extra feature.
Canon should clearly split its stills camera line (EOS] from Video + Cinema cameras [C-###] - at all levels, not only at the top end.
Seriously.

 

[Orangutan]

Never

You keep using that word...

 

[Sella174]

EF-S primes ... so that the 100D makes sense.

In camera games, including ScummVM ... for those boring conferences.

A true B&W sensor (in the 70D) ... each photosite is an actual pixel.

 

[dafrank]

Almost forgot about Da Rulez.

Rule 1: I've given evidence and examples. They're all in my 13173-and-counting posts. This may help.

Rule 2: This thread will undoubedly fall victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia," but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never quote The Princess Bride in a CR Forum thread, it's a sure way to get a thread locked."
[/quote]

First of all, it is inconceivable that you have posted so much, usually so well, and truly, you have a dizzying intellect, yet you have still never gone up against a Sicilian when death was on the line, to prove just that point.

My name is David Franklin, prepare to reply, if you wish.

 

[tron]

As usual the answers are highly subjective.
I can answer only for myself:

1. Are 18 Megapixels enough?

YES! I prefer to see them improve DR and low noise

2. Why do we need more than 12 stops of DR?

So as to try to come as close to our eyes (Perfect for landscapes.)

3. What ISO setting will we need to take pictures on a new moon night? Do we really need anything better than the 1D X / 6D?

I do for shooting landscape astrophotography. Can I have 1M ISO so as to have a super clean (10-100K)?

4. When will mirrorless camera take over? Bonus: When will they pass the Turing test???

Probably never, or, in 4 ,5 decades. Who knows, who cares

5. Assuming Sony, Nikon, or Fuji had the same lens selection as Canon, and money was no issue, would you switch? Why?

No I would not

6. Is IS necessary on wide angle lenses? Do you even use IS on your lenses?

It is a welcome addition. I use it when I have it.

7. What's better, USM or STM?

I do not care about video so USM I guess

8. Should DSLRs have video or is just a waste of R&D & money?

They can have but it should not be the predominant feature.

9. Is DxOMark THE authority on lens and sensor measurements?

NO WAY!

 

[unfocused]

1. Are 18 Megapixels enough?

2. Why do we need more than 12 stops of DR?

3. What ISO setting will we need to take pictures on a new moon night? Do we really need anything better than the 1D X / 6D?

4. When will mirrorless camera take over? Bonus: When will they pass the Turing test???

5. Assuming Sony, Nikon, or Fuji had the same lens selection as Canon, and money was no issue, would you switch? Why?

6. Is IS necessary on wide angle lenses? Do you even use IS on your lenses?

7. What's better, USM or STM?

8. Should DSLRs have video or is just a waste of R&D & money?

9. Is DxOMark THE authority on lens and sensor measurements?

I'll play. Let's get ready to rumble.

1) For full frame -- Yes; For crop -- No;

2) We don't. We only need 11 (Zone 0 through Zone 10).

3) I've got better things to do at night. 5DIII is more than sufficient

4) When (your choice): Hell freezes over, pigs fly, Geese lay golden eggs

5) No. Although if money were no issue, I'd consider a future version of the XPro just because it's cool looking.

6) Necessary? No. But I still want it; Yes, it's the best lens technology ever.

7) LSD

8 ) Sure. If they can sucker those video people into helping pay for my still camera, I'm all for it.

9) If you have to measure your lens or sensor then you aren't using it right. At least, that's what she said.

 

[traingineer]

1: No, it's not enough pixels for us pixel peepers

2: To eliminate all shadows and highlights

3: ISO 1, to get 0% noise and 100% full DR

4: Mirror less has existed long before DSLRs, it's a brain with 2 eyes connected to a bunch of bones and flesh, the only problem is that it's IQ is the worst.

5: Anything is better than Canon

6: Yes in fact, all lenses must have 2 IS modes, 1 to stabilise your movements and another to stabilise your subject

7: USTM, makes no sound and is 333% more accurate than manual focus

8: the moment the DSLR turns on, it must take a video at 30fps or faster, it can't stop. A DSLR is meant to capture the moment, and that moment is everything

9: DxO know more about cameras than any camera manufacturer

If only the mighty DxO can make a real camera, sadly, we're stuck with all these "businesses" making things they call cameras.

 

[wickidwombat]

I think you need to stop smoking whatever it is you were smoking and step away from the keyboard....

 

[traingineer]

I think you need to stop smoking whatever it is you were smoking and step away from the keyboard....

I think I'm too young to smoke anything. But you have to agree, DxO is amazing... At being an excellent tool to start a war.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

I have some cash put away for a new camera or 100-400mm lens, but no camera, no matter which brand seems interesting enough for me to buy it either to replace my 5D MK III, or as a 2nd camera.
Our local camera store is a fair sized one and has pretty much all of the pro and enthusiast bodies, so I go in every 4-6 weeks to see the new models. To tell the truth, I find them boring, or special purpose cameras that are good at specific things, but not for all around photography.

I bought a D800 when they first came out, and for specific high DR low ISO situations, it was fantastic, otherwise, just another camera. The Nikon lens situation was pretty grim at the time. Now, there are third party lenses plus a few Nikon lenses that are getting pretty good, but I'm still waiting for something exciting.

I think that I'm pretty burned out on all the camera hype. I am planning to check out the new Sony RX100 Mk III when it arrives, but it is limited to certain special used as well. For some, it will be supurb, but not for a travel or vacation camera where you need more than 70mm. Its also crippled for portraits.

 

[ahab1372]

2 pages in, and sanity already went down the cliff