• UPDATE



    The forum will be moving to a new domain in the near future (canonrumorsforum.com). I have turned off "read-only", but I will only leave the two forum nodes you see active for the time being.

    I don't know at this time how quickly the change will happen, but that will move at a good pace I am sure.

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Decline in DSLR sales explained

I think we are perceiving a problem for people who don't think they have a problem (and they don't). A DSLR or something similar scratches an itch that doesn't exist. Most people are thoroughly satisfied with their smartphone cameras. They don't care to do anything except upload images to social media. Anything more than a smartphone is overkill.
 
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Hello everyone.

Just joined this forum, but have been coming this this site for a number of years know. Always interesting things to read and see other people's view points.

I have owned Canon 30D , 40D, 7D, currently own the 7D Mark II and 1D Mark IV and the Nikon D800E. I use the tool for the job. The 7D has nice features, but I did like the IQ. The noise at ISO 400 was too much for my liking and the artifacts as well. Only took about 32,000 images with it and bought the 1D Mark IV 2 years later and have taken just shy 150,000 mages with it. The 7D Mark II is a much, much better camera. Sure wish it was a bit better though.

Really hate how 98% of reviews say that no WiFi is a CON.

Anyways back to this the discussion in this thread.

For consumer cameras, let them put that dribble in the cameras. Keep that junk out of prosumer and pro cameras. Those that use these cameras, know how to use the camera. I want control. Don't need social media access integrated into it. Do we NFC for our camera? Really!

Many people don't want to think anymore and it is getting worse. I did not spend my hard earned money to buy a camera just to post on it on facebook or something else, smartphones are great for that.

IQ is above all else important to me. I make prints and have my own 17" wide printer. I have several images hanging framed on the wall and 7 large images printed on canvas hanging as well. Not that many really print.

The attitude towards photography has also changed to the it's good enough. In the film days it was from pocket cameras to SLRs for many people and they took photos and it worked. Heck they are people having their wedding photos taken with smartphones, can't be very important event if that is good enough.

What it takes more then just pushing a a single button, that is too much work.

Well that is my point of view and you may agree or disagree with it.
If I start to see social media icons or other useless features, I will take up needlepoint.

Andy
 
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:D That video puts in perspective all that bickering over DR or high ISO performance and the importance of the "SYSTEM". Canon made serious mistake when decided to listen to wedding photographers as the primary source of sales, alienating hobbyists and enthusiasts with pricing and architecture of futures available in particular price levels. If Canon's marketing department has the same attitude as the most prominent posters here that you all know who i am referring tom (same people that destroyed karma, the only form of protest or critique without being retaliated verbally for) than Canon is not even close to find solution to the crises, not with the big mugs with 50Mp printed on them anyway. I really hope somebody will learn the lessons here...
 
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noisejammer said:
I think PhotographyFirst nailed it ... phones offer quite acceptable image quality for almost everyone.


And herein lies the problem - most people's definition of acceptable is what I'd call "horrible".

Sometimes when I'm outdoors shooting horsies, people volunteer to take some shots of me when I'm working with the animals, and I usually ask if they can send me some - so I've got a wide selection of i-something and p&s. The iq of what people hope to be "nice pictures" is stunningly bad, out of focus, shake, composition, everything, it defies a description.

BUT: These acquaintances do indeed send 'em directly from their phone! Just got a couple from a lady in her 30s-40s. I don't know if younger people have more understanding what makes a quality photos, but I doubt it - they'd rather take selfies everywhere. Going by that standard, the doom of dslrs (and pro photography) is a certainty :-o
 
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It is totally ridiculous, that any digital image captured with a new, big and expensive camera can only be transferred to any other device and towards any viewing audience by either connecting a cable to the camera or by opening it and taking out a memory card, putting it into another specialized device (CF card reader) which in turn needs to be connected to yet another device (PC, notebook, tablet). In 2015!

Until Canon and Nikon refuse to change photography to "100% digital" they are doomed. Rightfully so.

Jettison those "analogue workflow artefacts". Jettison mechanical components inside cameras. Make them smaller, more powerful but easier to use (eg using touchscreens AND electronic viewfinders with Eye Control Autofocus v2.0), make them wirelessly connected, make them solid state, vibration-free, make them more fun to use.

Make the entire camera + lens system far cheaper to customers by creating "industry standard, universal lens mounts"! One universal lens mount for 1" sensors, one universal mount for APS-C (crop 1.5x) and one for 135 format (FF). Similar to what was attempted with mFT, but this time for the most wide-spread sensor formats and on a much grander scale - including all players in the industry.

A lot more pain nerds to be inflicted on canon and nikon. But in the end they will have to budge and yield to us: their 21st century customers! :)
 
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tculotta said:
I think we are perceiving a problem for people who don't think they have a problem (and they don't). A DSLR or something similar scratches an itch that doesn't exist. Most people are thoroughly satisfied with their smartphone cameras. They don't care to do anything except upload images to social media. Anything more than a smartphone is overkill.

This is indeed the reality.
 
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sanj said:
tculotta said:
I think we are perceiving a problem for people who don't think they have a problem (and they don't). A DSLR or something similar scratches an itch that doesn't exist. Most people are thoroughly satisfied with their smartphone cameras. They don't care to do anything except upload images to social media. Anything more than a smartphone is overkill.

This is indeed the reality.

I agree. Far from expanding ranges and adding new features I think that big camera manufacturers are likely to accept that in the not too distant future SLRs will be a niche market. Manufactures will to start looking at exit strategies from - if we are lucky - all but these niche markets. The worst case scenario for photographers (as distinct from people who take photographs) is that no company will want to serve the niche. I have no need to upload things quickly to social media (and am often photographing in places where the infrastructure is not available to do so even if I wanted to), so I see little benefit to built-in features, but I am not representative of most of the market. And most of the market don't want to be lugging around an SLR when a phone camera is so much more convenient, so there will be little benefit to being in the consumer SLR market; I have a couple of relatives who bought SLRs thinking they would like to take "better" photographs, but I cannot remember the last time I saw either of them use anything other than a phone camera. For the same reason mirrorless cameras are not the solution for many: they are not as convenient and ever-present as the phone.

I don't know who makes the cameras that go into phones, but that is where the greatest market share will be (is): while some may regard the quality of many phone images as "horrible", for the majority of people they are good enough, and likely much better than they were achieving with a low end camera that was not part of their phone. I have seen excellent images taken on iPhones by pro-photographers, who know the limitations of the tool but whose skill is such that they can make the most of the medium. I have seen terrible images taken on high-end DSLRs. Of course phone cameras are not suited to some applications, but those are not the areas that the mass market are choosing to photograph. The Commonwealth Games in Glasgow in 2014 were labelled the "selfie" games because people were shooting images of themselves at the events and uploading them to Facebook or Twitter - they were not photographing the sport and did not care whether the athletes were in focus or not; they wanted an image that showed they were there, and their phones gave them those images.

For those of us who like SLRs I foresee a slowdown in the rate of release of new models (bodies and lenses) because there will no longer be large R and D budgets. The move will be to miniaturise (anyone remember the Sony Walkman?) to make things more portable (though it is interesting that phones are now getting bigger again as they become the computers in our pockets - the human hand is not getting smaller and eyesight is not improving, meaning screens have to be big enough to take a keyboard and to read).
 
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I watched this presentation from the beginning to the end and can make very few very strong statements:

1) Presentation was absolute bullshit;
2) Presenter was making wrong assumptions and wrong conclusions.

My reasoning for such conclusions is the following:

1) At first you do not need to prove obvious things (e.g. there is a snow in winter, water is liquid and etc.). Presenter wanted to prove that photo market is declining. This is obvious fact, which does not require to be proved.
2) Presenter put a lot of not necessary bullshit in presentation (on Bruce Willis, impala population, correlation trends and correlation formula). The problem with statistics is that if you apply wrong assumptions and make correct statistical calculations you will get wrong results, which contradict to common logic. Accordingly, presenter conclusion that smartphone introduction is NOT killing compact camera market is wrong.
3) All discussions about market saturation (when we speak about compact cameras) is wrong is due to CHANGES IN TECHNOLOGY. Cameras in smartphones are sufficiently good to fully replace compact cameras. The same could be applied to PDAs and MP3 players. Talks about market saturation in compact cameras would make sense if there is no such shift in technology.
4) Accordingly, presenter was wrong regarding market saturation related to DSLRs. Peak was in 2012 when Canon / Nikon introduced 5DMark III, D800 series cameras. AT that year technology was at peak, which drove consumers to buy DSLRs, however, the last few years were really in "milking the cow" stage. There were no new major technology breaktroughs, which would drive consumers to buy new cameras. Another fact is that such highly advanced cameras are really expensive. e.g. You are not buying a new car every year, yo replace it when it becomes really obsolete (physically and morally). Accordingly, it is normal to consumers to replace such cameras every 2-5 years.

Presenter was also wrong in arguments, which were trying to show why photo camera sales are declining:

1) Different aspect ratios in photo cameras and printers. This is not a limiting factor as most of consumers do not print photos but store them in digital format. Other part of consumers do not face issues as they send jpegs to photo labs and get prints. Process is extremely simple.
2) Photo books argument - maybe presenter had in mind CAMERA MANUALS? :) Because all photo books explain principles of photography and usually are not written to specific camera or manufacturer. Principles of photography are the same for all cameras.
3) RAW and Adobe. This argument is absolute bullshit as there are more RAW converters and consumer do not need to stick to Adobe only. Also, ordinary consumers can shoot in JPEG mode and they do not need any editing software.

Presenter said incorrect statement: meeting consumers wishes is not equal to technology we offer. Ordinary consumers are not buying compact cameras as smartphones are really sufficient. Compact camera market is dead. That is a fact. However, more advanced consumers want really better technology (e.g. better dynamic range, better high ISO capabilities, faster FPS, etc.). During the last few years there were no such breakthroughs. I am sure that if Canon put Exxmor sensor in Canon Mark 5dMkIV such camera sales would be really significant.

Some words on SOLUTIONS that presenter presented:

1) More fun but not technology - in other words he could say "better marketing is required", however in such specialized industry as photography you need to have at least basic knowledge about light, ISO Av TV dependence and etc. If you want very simple approach you can make photos with smartphones or in AUTO regime in DSLRs.
2) He proposes to abolish scene modes in cameras. This is wrong as ordinary users (who do not have knowledge on photography) use them. In such case you would loos quite a big part of ordinary hobbyists who buy expensive DSLRs.
3) Simplifying photo eco system, abolish patents, open secrets :) Whout would be Canon advantage if it openly announce protocols related to AF, Sony abolishes Exxmor sensor patents, all manufacturers use unified lens mount???? In such case all photo maufacturers should consolidate and that will never happen. Stupid idea which is impossible to implement.
4) Harmonising and unifying hardqare and software. Stupid argument as well. Hardware harmonisation would be killing lens and camera sales. Software is already harmonised - Adobe Photoshop and Lightroom are industry standards.

It was funny to watch how presenter gave ideas how to improve photo workflow from taking picture to printing it. This process is ALREADY IMPLEMENTED.

In summary, presentation included a lot of bullshit, wrong assumptions and conclusions, as well as outdated ideas. Other trends which drive young generation (e.g. making selfies) were not discussed at all. That's because presenter still lives in XX century and do not have any new ideas. I am very surprised that he was invited to CES.
 
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Efka76 said:
1) More fun but not technology - in other words he could say "better marketing is required",

There's a good chance those "consulting firms" are really pursuing some of their "customers" agenda. For example, "social" companies. These companies need a continuos stream of contents from their products users. Otherwise they can't survive. Unlike companies selling you products - be it hardware (cameras, lenses. PCs), or software, they sell your contents, and need new ones. Thereby they employ a lot of PR - often hidden - to make you believe you can't live without uploading your contents to them.
The last thing I wish is a camera which embeds uploads to some proprietary systems and which doesn't let me choose where I really want to upload *my* contents. Also, different geographical areas have different dominating "social" companies. And maybe, the last thing I want in a trip to China is a camera trying to upload almost automatically contents to some destination forbidden....
 
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All the camera makers should make smartphones. ;D

The video presents a very good argument for consumers not to buy anything but a smartphone.

If you want something more then get a fixed lens compact with a large sensor & WiFi/NFC.

Need flexibility get a MILC.

Need better AF for moving subjects then get a DSLR.

Need pixels and money's no object then go medium format.
 
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