EFCS vs mechanical shutter DR and bit depth

jeanluc

EOS 90D
Oct 29, 2012
192
90
So my R5 is on the way...

I've been reading all the threads I can here and elsewhere about shutter shock and when to use mechanical shutter, EFCS, and ES.

It looks like that for shooting landscapes on a tripod, recommended setup is IS off, electronic first curtain.

I have read that using ES decreases both bit depth and DR.

Is this true for both EFCS and full ES, or just full ES?

I was wondering if anyone could sum up the bottom line about his topic.

thanks!
 

Joules

doom
CR Pro
Jul 16, 2017
1,495
1,780
Hamburg, Germany
I have read that using ES decreases both bit depth and DR.
That is correct. Although decreasing the bit depth for linear data is the same as reducing the DR. Note that this does not matter for images taken with ISO 800 or higher. For the exact amount of DR lost when using fully electronic shutter or the high FPS mode, see:


Is this true for both EFCS and full ES, or just full ES?
Just full ES. EFCS is 14-bit. It drops to 13 regardless of shutter mode for high FPS shooting and drops to 12 for full electronic shutter. See:

Screenshot_20201221-183251.png

Note also that EFCS causes artifacts in out of focus highlights when using very fast shutter speeds. See photos In this thread for examples.
 

docsmith

EOS R
CR Pro
Sep 17, 2010
1,027
465
Always want to point out that even with decreased bit depth/DR with ES, the R5 in ES still has higher DR than the 5DIII did across the ISO range and higher DR than the 5DIV at ISO >400. I owned the 5DIII and still own the 5DIV. Both are amazing cameras. So, consider the DR in ES to be very capable of taking great images and the DR in ECFS and mechanical shutter to be even better.

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS 5D Mark III,Canon EOS 5D Mark IV,Canon EOS R5,Canon EOS R5(ES)
 

jeanluc

EOS 90D
Oct 29, 2012
192
90
Always want to point out that even with decreased bit depth/DR with ES, the R5 in ES still has higher DR than the 5DIII did across the ISO range and higher DR than the 5DIV at ISO >400. I owned the 5DIII and still own the 5DIV. Both are amazing cameras. So, consider the DR in ES to be very capable of taking great images and the DR in ECFS and mechanical shutter to be even better.

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS 5D Mark III,Canon EOS 5D Mark IV,Canon EOS R5,Canon EOS R5(ES)
Thanks for the info. Now, I just have to decide whether to use MS or EFCS. Looks like there is a lot of debate on that.

I do landscapes, and my cameras live on a tripod. So I was thinking that EFCS is probably best, except at shutter speeds faster that 1/500 or so. Any thoughts?
 

Joules

doom
CR Pro
Jul 16, 2017
1,495
1,780
Hamburg, Germany
Thanks for the info. Now, I just have to decide whether to use MS or EFCS. Looks like there is a lot of debate on that.

I do landscapes, and my cameras live on a tripod. So I was thinking that EFCS is probably best, except at shutter speeds faster that 1/500 or so. Any thoughts?
Sounds like a good choice for landscapes.
 
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Ramage

EOS R5
CR Pro
Aug 27, 2019
427
786
The discussion around MS vs. EFCS an ES are really fun and interesting as is the talk about bit depth but I would advise all reading these threads to simply take some photos with your camera and see if you are pleased with the results.

I am primarily a landscape photographer and I pretty much only use the EFCS and I am really pleased with shots from the R5 and R6.

Edit: I should add I am not saying to not investigate and discuss the technology, I know I can never know enough about the tech. Just maybe get out (if you can) and enjoy the process of taking pictures.
 
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privatebydesign

EOS-1D X Mark III
CR Pro
Jan 29, 2011
9,473
3,855
Thanks for the info. Now, I just have to decide whether to use MS or EFCS. Looks like there is a lot of debate on that.

I do landscapes, and my cameras live on a tripod. So I was thinking that EFCS is probably best, except at shutter speeds faster that 1/500 or so. Any thoughts?

Yes, take two minutes to test to for yourself with your own camera, lenses and tripod. Then you will know.
 

jeanluc

EOS 90D
Oct 29, 2012
192
90
The discussion around MS vs. EFCS an ES are really fun and interesting as is the talk about bit depth but I would advise all reading these threads to simply take some photos with your camera and see if you are pleased with the results.

I am primarily a landscape photographer and I pretty much only use the EFCS and I am really pleased with shots from the R5 and R6.

Edit: I should add I am not saying to not investigate and discuss the technology, I know I can never know enough about the tech. Just maybe get out (if you can) and enjoy the process of taking pictures.

I agree and normally don't get too excited about this kind of stuff. I am basically just wanting to ensure I get out as much of the tech as I can; I don't want to negate it by doing some dumb-ass thing out of ignorance. Which gets easier to do the more tech evolves.

When shooting landscapes on my 5D4, I use live view almost all the time with exposure-bracketing from -2EV to +2 EV on a 2 second timer. This has given me great results, and I have never given the electronic vs mechanical vs EFCS shutter thing any thought. I assume doing this on a DSLR is essentially doing the EFCS thing. I do the same thing with my EOS R ( I have to check when I get home to see if it even has an EFCS option). I am trying to see which method on the R5 best emulates this way of doing things; I suspect it is using EFCS.

Glad to hear it works well for you; that is what I want to hear!
 

docsmith

EOS R
CR Pro
Sep 17, 2010
1,027
465
Thanks for the info. Now, I just have to decide whether to use MS or EFCS. Looks like there is a lot of debate on that.

I do landscapes, and my cameras live on a tripod. So I was thinking that EFCS is probably best, except at shutter speeds faster that 1/500 or so. Any thoughts?
Yep. I would second Ramage's comments about getting out and shooting. I've played with each method in a few different scenarios. I can see an exceptionally slight more level of detail with ECFS over MS, but both were significantly better than my 5DIV which is an excellent landscape camera. My R5 arrived set to ECFS. That does seem to be a very good all around mode. As you shoot more, you might want to try different modes. The biggest differences in my experience is the obvious, ES gives you 20 fps. ECFS/MS are 12 fps max in H+. I actually use them in H mode.

Here is an article if you really want to dive into all this. But, I've tried to see a bokeh difference and I just don't.
 

dlee13

Canon EOS R6
May 13, 2014
193
61
Australia
WWW.photosbydlee.com
Always want to point out that even with decreased bit depth/DR with ES, the R5 in ES still has higher DR than the 5DIII did across the ISO range and higher DR than the 5DIV at ISO >400. I owned the 5DIII and still own the 5DIV. Both are amazing cameras. So, consider the DR in ES to be very capable of taking great images and the DR in ECFS and mechanical shutter to be even better.

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS 5D Mark III,Canon EOS 5D Mark IV,Canon EOS R5,Canon EOS R5(ES)

This is a really good point! Even the R6 in ES has more DR than the 6D and 6DII/RP which I had no issues with so would be more than fine with ES.
 

dwarven

EOS RP
CR Pro
Dec 12, 2019
244
367
California, US
Only thing with ES is that it takes 3-5 shots with a normal press. You have to press it ever so very slightly to get a single shot. I hope they release an update so you can change the drive speedo_O
 
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Czardoom

EOS 90D
Jan 27, 2020
172
386
So my R5 is on the way...

I've been reading all the threads I can here and elsewhere about shutter shock and when to use mechanical shutter, EFCS, and ES.

It looks like that for shooting landscapes on a tripod, recommended setup is IS off, electronic first curtain.

I have read that using ES decreases both bit depth and DR.

Is this true for both EFCS and full ES, or just full ES?

I was wondering if anyone could sum up the bottom line about his topic.

thanks!

My advice?...Stop reading and start shooting. There is practically nothing worse and more counter-productive, in my opinion, than all the hysteria and over-thinking that goes on in internet forums. If you are worrying about - or caring about - maybe a loss of 10% sharpness or DR or whatever you might notice if you pixel peep, then you aren't worrying about anything important when it comes to photography. Just go out and shoot. You'll be much happier.

And now all the gear-heads and pixel peepers will be outraged. So be it. :cool:
 
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Joules

doom
CR Pro
Jul 16, 2017
1,495
1,780
Hamburg, Germany
If you are worrying about - or caring about - maybe a loss of 10% sharpness or DR or whatever you might notice if you pixel peep, then you aren't worrying about anything important when it comes to photography.
Ignorance is bliss of course. But I believe knowing the basics of how the settings in your tool influence your results is very helpful to enjoy being out shooting more.

After all, if you never bothered to learn about how shutter speed and aperture influence the image and just go auto all the way, you may not get the image you are after all the time.

Similarly, knowing how the shutter settings affect the image is beneficial to avoid frustration from having unexpected motion blur or unexpected artifacts in your highlight.

Asking a question that gets to the heart of the issue rather than just reading on and on is a Perfectly good way to get the information required to be comfortable when shooting and making the right decision. This way, you're getting the best of both worlds. You know what's up and can go out and enjoy the shooting.

And don't think balancing being informed or being out shooting towards the extreme of doing just one of them is the way to get the most out of it.
 
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YuengLinger

Godzilla needs boxing lessons.
CR Pro
Dec 20, 2012
3,457
1,855
USA
Only thing with ES is that it takes 3-5 shots with a normal press. You have to press it ever so very slightly to get a single shot. I hope they release an update so you can change the drive speedo_O
In one-shot you can get one shot, right? I can't get less than ten in burst mode without jerking the camera trying to release so fast.
 
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YuengLinger

Godzilla needs boxing lessons.
CR Pro
Dec 20, 2012
3,457
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USA
As far as I know ES doesn't let you shoot single shot. I think it's 20 fps mode only. Could be wrong since I rarely use ES.
I tried in One Shot and it only takes one. Like you, I don't see much reason to use it--and especially just one shot at a time.

But a delimiter would be nice. If the actual rate can't be slowed, a menu option that allowed a set number for a burst would be better than what we have now.
 
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