How (and why) does sensor size change DOF?

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Jan 29, 2011
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ecka said:
DoF ~ focal length * aperture * subject distance
If you want to shoot the same picture using the same lens with both FF and crop sensor cameras, you need to be closer to the subject with FF camera to get the same framing and that's the only difference.


That is only part of the story, and there are many ways to tell it........

For a very good explanation look here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_of_field

Specifically:-
Relationship of DOF to format size

The comparative DOFs of two different format sizes depend on the conditions of the comparison. The DOF for the smaller format can be either more than or less than that for the larger format. In the discussion that follows, it is assumed that the final images from both formats are the same size, are viewed from the same distance, and are judged with the same circle of confusion criterion. (Derivations of the effects of format size are given under Derivation of the DOF formulas.)

“Same picture” for both formats
When the “same picture” is taken in two different format sizes from the same distance at the same f-number with lenses that give the same angle of view, and the final images (e.g., in prints, or on a projection screen or electronic display) are the same size, DOF is, to a first approximation, inversely proportional to format size (Stroebel 1976, 139). Though commonly used when comparing formats, the approximation is valid only when the subject distance is large in comparison with the focal length of the larger format and small in comparison with the hyperfocal distance of the smaller format.

Moreover, the larger the format size, the longer a lens will need to be to capture the same framing as a smaller format. In motion pictures, for example, a frame with a 12 degree horizontal field of view will require a 50 mm lens on 16 mm film, a 100 mm lens on 35 mm film, and a 250 mm lens on 65 mm film. Conversely, using the same focal length lens with each of these formats will yield a progressively wider image as the film format gets larger: a 50 mm lens has a horizontal field of view of 12 degrees on 16 mm film, 23.6 degrees on 35 mm film, and 55.6 degrees on 65 mm film. Therefore, because the larger formats require longer lenses than the smaller ones, they will accordingly have a smaller depth of field. Compensations in exposure, framing, or subject distance need to be made in order to make one format look like it was filmed in another format.

Same focal length for both formats
Many small-format digital SLR camera systems allow using many of the same lenses on both full-frame and “cropped format” cameras. If, for the same focal length setting, the subject distance is adjusted to provide the same field of view at the subject, at the same f-number and final-image size, the smaller format has greater DOF, as with the “same picture” comparison above. If pictures are taken from the same distance using the same f-number, same focal length, and the final images are the same size, the smaller format has less DOF. If pictures taken from the same subject distance using the same focal length, are given the same enlargement, both final images will have the same DOF. The pictures from the two formats will differ because of the different angles of view. If the larger format is cropped to the captured area of the smaller format, the final images will have the same angle of view, have been given the same enlargement, and have the same DOF.

Same DOF for both formats
In many cases, the DOF is fixed by the requirements of the desired image. For a given DOF and field of view, the required f-number is proportional to the format size. For example, if a 35 mm camera required f/11, a 4×5 camera would require f/45 to give the same DOF. For the same ISO speed, the exposure time on the 4×5 would be sixteen times as long; if the 35 camera required 1/250 second, the 4×5 camera would require 1/15 second. The longer exposure time with the larger camera might result in motion blur, especially with windy conditions, a moving subject, or an unsteady camera.

Adjusting the f-number to the camera format is equivalent to maintaining the same absolute aperture diameter; when set to the same absolute aperture diameters, both formats have the same DOF.

Also here, http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/ for a very detailed insight into sensor sizes and their interaction with focal length, dof, aperture and iso. Yes, even iso has a crop factor!
 
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ecka

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privatebydesign said:
ecka said:
DoF ~ focal length * aperture * subject distance
If you want to shoot the same picture using the same lens with both FF and crop sensor cameras, you need to be closer to the subject with FF camera to get the same framing and that's the only difference.


That is only part of the story, and there are many ways to tell it........

Well, for me it is a very simple thing and I gave a simple answer to the question "Why?". You don't need to write a book to answer a simple question, because that's how people get confused.
 
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rs

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Another way of looking at it is to exaggerate and think of a very small sensor camera (iPhone) vs very large sensor camera (medium format). If both are equipped with a lens to give the same angle of view, then other than scale, they do pretty much the same thing.

Image a scene with a subject at about 2m and a background at about 10m away.

The phone sees that scene in front of it as being relatively massive - almost like how an insect would see it - so anything beyond about a metre is effectively infinity, meaning its pretty much all in focus. Put that same scene in front of the medium format camera, and everything is much smaller relatively speaking to the camera - so none of it gets close to infinity (more like a macro shot), so the depth of field is much narrower.

It's a little bit like taking a photo of a really scaled down version of that scene in macro mode with the iPhone.

Obviously the differences are much less when comparing FF and APS-C, but the differences are still there.
 
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neuroanatomist said:
mik14 said:
There's no "story". DOF is a characteristic of a lens and has nothing to do with sensor size. End of story.

You couldn't be more wrong. Perhaps you're stuck in the circle of confusion... ::)

If you take two pictures at the same position with the same lens on both a crop and a full frame, the distance between the nearest in focus object and the furthest away in focus object will be the same, so the depth of field does not change. Obviously the image captured will be different on each.

However, if you're talking about the depth of field for an equivalent picture, you'd have to move the full frame camera closer which would result in a reduced depth of field.
 
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Let's try to help

ecka said:
DoF ~ focal length * aperture * subject distance

in this "equation",

Focal lenght =
- on FF, just the number you see on the lens/EXIF
- on ASP-C/H, number of the EXIF * 1,6/1,3

thus just changing the sensor changes the focal lenght and by repercussion the DoF.

I can't find a simpler way to put it.
 
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ecka

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Grumbaki said:
Let's try to help

ecka said:
DoF ~ focal length * aperture * subject distance

in this "equation",

Focal lenght =
- on FF, just the number you see on the lens/EXIF
- on ASP-C/H, number of the EXIF * 1,6/1,3

thus just changing the sensor changes the focal lenght and by repercussion the DoF.

I can't find a simpler way to put it.

Wrong. The only thing that changes is the field of view. Focal length stays the same.
 
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May 31, 2011
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I don't think it does. Yes there are people who claim it is greatly affected, but I'm not sure they are right.

The lens focuses the image onto the sensor.

With full frame, more of the area is captured, but depth of field is unchanged.

http://improvephotography.com//wp-content/uploads/2013/02/how-a-lens-works.jpg

So the corners are improved because they are excluded. I've heard there is a half stop of depth of field that is changed... and that seems minor enough to be true... but that I'm not sure about.
 
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Jan 29, 2011
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Oh dear,

Anybody that wants to argue the point really needs to read my two links, and get a background understanding on the CoC, circle of confusion.

The first thing you have to do when trying to understand this dof stuff is set a standard for your comparison. If we are going to assume a same sized reproduction, ie 8"x10" print or "fill screen" on the same monitor, and frame the image the same while shooting from the same place, you have to take everything into consideration.

Here is a comparison I did a while ago for another thread much like this one. It is a comparison based on the above criteria. The three images are identical in dof, noise, perspective, angle of view, etc etc.

If you read and understand the quote from Wikipedia I posted you will understand if you change your comparison criteria you will change the dof characteristics.
 

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Don Haines

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This is a confusing topic because the term "1.6 x crop" is a bit confusing to some. You hear that when you mount a 100mm lens on an APS-C camera it behaves like a 160MM lens on a FF camera. Really, what it means is that the field of view is the same as if you had a 160m lens on a crop camera, but it does not mean you have a 160mm lens.

The lens remains a 100mm lens. It's optical qualities do not change, it's depth of field does not change, it's aperture does not change. When you mount that lens on an APS-C camera you are using a sensor that will only sample the center 40% of the image ( 1/(1.6^2)).

If you were to use a FF sensor with 46Mpixels that was built with the same technology as an 18Mpixel APS-C sensor, the center part of the FF image capture would be ABSOLUTELY identical to that of the APS-C image.

So, sensor size has no effect on DOF or aperture.
 
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badgerpiper said:
neuroanatomist said:
mik14 said:
There's no "story". DOF is a characteristic of a lens and has nothing to do with sensor size. End of story.

You couldn't be more wrong. Perhaps you're stuck in the circle of confusion... ::)

If you take two pictures at the same position with the same lens on both a crop and a full frame, the distance between the nearest in focus object and the furthest away in focus object will be the same, so the depth of field does not change. Obviously the image captured will be different on each.

However, if you're talking about the depth of field for an equivalent picture, you'd have to move the full frame camera closer which would result in a reduced depth of field.

In the former case, my head shot just became an eyes-and-mouth shot that I had to delete because most people like to see their whole face in a portrait. The latter case is far more relevant to most types of photography. The exception might be macro photography, where at 1:1 magnification, you are at the MFD of the lens, regardless of sensor size. But at macro distances, DoF is incredibly thin anyway (and the assumptions made by most DoF calculators don't hold).

As for DoF being solely a property of the lens, what, subject distance no longer matters??

The real story is that DoF is determined by subject magnification and lens aperture.
 
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rs

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Don Haines said:
This is a confusing topic because the term "1.6 x crop" is a bit confusing to some. You hear that when you mount a 100mm lens on an APS-C camera it behaves like a 160MM lens on a FF camera. Really, what it means is that the field of view is the same as if you had a 160m lens on a crop camera, but it does not mean you have a 160mm lens.

The lens remains a 100mm lens. It's optical qualities do not change, it's depth of field does not change, it's aperture does not change. When you mount that lens on an APS-C camera you are using a sensor that will only sample the center 40% of the image ( 1/(1.6^2)).

If you were to use a FF sensor with 46Mpixels that was built with the same technology as an 18Mpixel APS-C sensor, the center part of the FF image capture would be ABSOLUTELY identical to that of the APS-C image.

So, sensor size has no effect on DOF or aperture.
That is all absolutely correct, except for one thing - in reality, if you moved from a crop system to a full frame system, you wouldn't take photos of the same scene from the same location with the same lens to end up with what is a wider framed photo.

As you say, if you do that and you crop it down, its identical to taking it with a crop camera.

But if you frame up the shot as you envisioned, either approximating it by altering your perspective by getting close, or ideally by keeping your perspective the same with a longer lens, presuming the aperture remains the same, the DoF is narrower with FF.
 
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ecka

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Don Haines said:
This is a confusing topic because the term "1.6 x crop" is a bit confusing to some. You hear that when you mount a 100mm lens on an APS-C camera it behaves like a 160MM lens on a FF camera. Really, what it means is that the field of view is the same as if you had a 160m lens on a crop FF camera, but it does not mean you have a 160mm lens.

The lens remains a 100mm lens. It's optical qualities do not change, it's depth of field does not change, it's aperture does not change. When you mount that lens on an APS-C camera you are using a sensor that will only sample the center 40% of the image ( 1/(1.6^2)).

If you were to use a FF sensor with 46Mpixels that was built with the same technology as an 18Mpixel APS-C sensor, the center part of the FF image capture would be ABSOLUTELY identical to that of the APS-C image.

So, sensor size has no effect on DOF or aperture.

Good explanation, with wrong conclusion. Using similar logic we can say that lens-sensor combo has no effect on DoF as well, only subject (scene) size and distance matters. DoF is not a constant describing the lens or the sensor, but it is described by the combination + distance.
 
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ecka said:
DoF ~ focal length * aperture * subject distance
If you want to shoot the same picture using the same lens with both FF and crop sensor cameras, you need to be closer to the subject with FF camera to get the same framing and that's the only difference.


this is really it... good simple explanation...
and badgepiper added a bit more....

so
to get the same framing ...in the result.....you move closer on FF...
and closer....shrinks the DOF...
in basic terms...

this is all you need to keep in mind .....IMO....
 
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