How does the R5 and speedlite in Manual interact?

VegasCameraGuy

EOS R5
CR Pro
Jul 9, 2020
187
155
Las Vegas, NV
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I'm asking how the R5 and an ETTL Speedlite such as the 600EXT work with the Speedlite in Manual mode?

The question is basically this: When the off-camera Speedlite is in Manual does the R5 basically ignore the Speedlite when calculating the camera's automatic exposure settings? From my limited testing, it appears that the R5 doesn't change the exposure if the flash is in Manual. What I want is for the camera to set the picture's lighting for the scene as normal without the flash. Then using a wireless trigger, I want to add an off-camera fill-flash for the shadows?

I realize that I could put the camera in manual and accomplish this but didn't spend $4k to get a dumb camera. Plus a lot of my model sessions involve shoot and scoot where I'm trying to minimize as many adjustments as possible. The amount of fill flash required is not that much to soften the contrast between the sunlit and shadow side of the face.

I've tried all of the flash settings in ETTL mode but generally, the flash wants to take over the lighting even in ambiance mode and often causes the background to be underexposed. My thought is if the camera can't control the flash but simply triggers it, then I can manually adjust the power on the flash to get the proper shadow exposure.

If I could get the camera to do nothing but trigger the flash and completely ignore it for exposure settings would solve all my problems? Well, maybe not all my problems but you know what I mean?
 
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snappy604

EOS RP
CR Pro
Jan 25, 2017
552
412
I don't have a 600EXT but a version 1 580XT... and an R5.. I can try some stuff if you have some specific settings. I'm curious too.
normally when I run and gun I don't use manual, on flash, but on camera.. with fixed aperture and shutter speed and ISO variable. Then I put the flash on high speed sync and the expose on it at -1 EV.. or - 1/2.. on my 80D it worked fine, but haven't tried on R5.. .probably should get around to it.

did a quick test.. all images backlit badly (on purpose) with manual settings, eval metering, 1/500th F6.3 and auto ISO.
Shot #1 no flash auto ISO was 1000.
Shot #2 flash pointed up at high speed sync, EV -1 auto ISO detect 1000
Shot #3 flash pointed forward, high speed sync, EV -1 auto ISO detected 100
Shot #4 flash pointed up, high speed sync, EV 0 auto ISO detected 1000

think the last is what you more or less want.
 

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VegasCameraGuy

EOS R5
CR Pro
Jul 9, 2020
187
155
Las Vegas, NV
www.flickr.com
I don't have a 600EXT but a version 1 580XT... and an R5.. I can try some stuff if you have some specific settings. I'm curious too.
normally when I run and gun I don't use manual, on flash, but on camera.. with fixed aperture and shutter speed and ISO variable. Then I put the flash on high speed sync and the expose on it at -1 EV.. or - 1/2.. on my 80D it worked fine, but haven't tried on R5.. .probably should get around to it.

did a quick test.. all images backlit badly (on purpose) with manual settings, eval metering, 1/500th F6.3 and auto ISO.
Shot #1 no flash auto ISO was 1000.
Shot #2 flash pointed up at high speed sync, EV -1 auto ISO detect 1000
Shot #3 flash pointed forward, high speed sync, EV -1 auto ISO detected 100
Shot #4 flash pointed up, high speed sync, EV 0 auto ISO detected 1000

think the last is what you more or less want.
Thanks for the quick response. I'm not actually using a 600 either but a Godox AD360ii but didn't want to get into an it's the vendor's fault conversation. My Xpro-C works identical to a Canon and your test confirms what I'm seeing.

I need to test this scenario more myself. I've done several shoots early in the morning and the Las Vegas sun is a bitch when it's just off the horizon. Sometimes you can't move things to get the light properly positioned and there is not enough time to set everything up. I've been trying the various R5 flash modes but with little success. My 360 watt-second flash will take over the exposure forcing the background to be underexposed. It just dawned on me yesterday to consider the flash in manual mode but the documentation is fairly vague on what actually happens with the flash in manual. My limited testing indicated that the camera operated as if it had a dumb hotshoe and simply fired the flash.

Thank you again for your input. I'll do some testing and let you know what I figure out.
 

snappy604

EOS RP
CR Pro
Jan 25, 2017
552
412
I'm certainly no expert, but what I found is that I meter and expose the scene manually without flash and then put the flash on with a - 0.5EV .. I may need a slight tweak on iso or shutter speed, but it usually ends up balancing. I use high speed sync if it's mounted on camera to get shutter under 1/250 (might be lower on full frame, again haven't tested much with R5). The flash having a slightly lower EV tends to act as a bit more natural fill, more so if I have a diffuser

just reread your post and you have multiple flashes.. yes that could cause some issues, but being fully manual may fix?
 
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VegasCameraGuy

EOS R5
CR Pro
Jul 9, 2020
187
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Las Vegas, NV
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I'm certainly no expert, but what I found is that I meter and expose the scene manually without flash and then put the flash on with a - 0.5EV .. I may need a slight tweak on iso or shutter speed, but it usually ends up balancing. I use high speed sync if it's mounted on camera to get shutter under 1/250 (might be lower on full frame, again haven't tested much with R5). The flash having a slightly lower EV tends to act as a bit more natural fill, more so if I have a diffuser

just reread your post and you have multiple flashes.. yes that could cause some issues, but being fully manual may fix?
I'm trying to minimize any manual settings if possible. Manual is fine in a more static situation where you can tweak everything but am trying to figure out how to do this on the run.
 
Mar 23, 2021
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1
Just to throw into the mix, there have been quite a few reported issues with the R5 communicating with the Godox triggers (X1Pro and X1) so you could be seeing a similar type of thing going on? For example, I used to use HSS with TTL on my 5D IV and Godox Speedlights and AD600s but it is pretty much unusable on my R5 - tends to way over expose so I have to set it all manually. You could be seeing some sort of similar thing going on maybe? even if you are using the speedling directly on the camera, I would imagine the control signals are the same as to a trigger. If you google "HSS Godox R5" you will see some similar experiences. Last I looked there hadn't been any firmware updates.
 
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YuengLinger

EOS R6
CR Pro
Dec 20, 2012
3,452
1,886
USA
Good thread! I can't believe I haven't tried this yet. So far the 600-ext has been doing a great job with bounce flash in ETTL, but I need to test Manual.

So many features, so little time...
 
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VegasCameraGuy

EOS R5
CR Pro
Jul 9, 2020
187
155
Las Vegas, NV
www.flickr.com
Just to throw into the mix, there have been quite a few reported issues with the R5 communicating with the Godox triggers (X1Pro and X1) so you could be seeing a similar type of thing going on? For example, I used to use HSS with TTL on my 5D IV and Godox Speedlights and AD600s but it is pretty much unusable on my R5 - tends to way over expose so I have to set it all manually. You could be seeing some sort of similar thing going on maybe? even if you are using the speedling directly on the camera, I would imagine the control signals are the same as to a trigger. If you google "HSS Godox R5" you will see some similar experiences. Last I looked there hadn't been any firmware updates.
I don't think this is a communications issue with the Godox flash and trigger as the results are good, see example: https://www.facebook.com/SinCityCameraGuy/posts/186774496462109 (Web view) My problem is that typically outdoors in Las Vegas, the sun is bright and there are typically few clouds in the sky (sorry people on the East coast). Especially when it is early or late in the day. The ambiance setting for the flash still does not stop the camera from taking over the natural lighting, which causes the background to be underexposed. Last weekend as I struggled with post-processing to deal with the images, it struck me that maybe I can put the flash in manual and hope the camera would ignore it. I thought about getting my Wein high voltage hot-shoe adapter out to see if that would make the camera ignore the flash but it seems that in initial testing and confirmed by Snappy604 that the camera seems to more or less ignore the Manual mode flash. As long as I ensure that I'm in sync mode inside the shutter speed range or in high-speed sync, I can manually dial in the flash power to fill in the shadows.

I'll have to search for the issues with Godox (Flashpoint) triggers but I use the Xpro-C and don't know if it's different from the X1Pro or X1. The Godox always seems to work perfectly with more power at less cost. Godox AD360ii flashes are rated for 75 full power rapid flashes before overheating which for me is a benefit. My previous flash system would overheat at around 20 flashes, which seems like a lot but is easy to hit when you're busy.
 
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