How "Pro" are iPad Pro and Affinity together?

martti

EOS RP
May 11, 2014
692
11
21.1144° S, 55.5325° E
There has been a lot of (sales promoting) talk about how the Ipad Pro -line is so magically powerful that you can leave your laptop home and do your on the road –processing with your new 12-inch iPad Pro and the ground-breaking new workhorse, Affinity Photo.


I would really like to leave the MBP home as it is heavy and bulky.
What would be the reasonable second best alternative?
I did a search on this site about iPad Pro and it returned absolutely nothing.


Is this a sign of something wrong with that product or maybe the people here are too busy doing what they like to do (making pictures) with the setup tha works for them?


My questions: How do you manage big databases on iPad?
You need external memory, of course. You also will need a file manager and an archiving app,,,


Is this just an attempt to sell iPads to people who will not be able to use them as they're used to or is there a working setup on somebody's iPad already?


Edit: I notice I am on the wrong forum.
The subject has been thoroughly discussed on DPReview.


Bye.
 

tomscott

Photographer & Graphic Designer
I would take a 12" macbook over an iPad pro any day... for a similar price,size and a proper OS.

The problem with the iPad continues to be the drawback of the IOS. No storage options and unless you have constant data or wifi then using it is difficult. The main pros are the touch screen and pen interface but getting images on and off are still a problem espeically when your not in your home environment.

I took an iPad mini 2 traveling half way across the world instead of my macbook airto save weight. It caused all sorts of issues with expensive work arounds. This was 2014 so things were not quite where they are now.

I was using my 5DMKIII, shot raw to one card and small jpg to another to send to the ipad. I had to buy a hyperdrive to back up my images as I shot around 3tbs in the 6 months I was away. This also gave me no redundancy and there is no way unless you buy two and at the time they were £400 each. Then you had to carry lots of dongles for the ipad too. I had lots of issues with the ipad, but most of those have been solved. It was a Gen II so the colour accuracy was non existent looked great on screen then lots of people gave me feedback about how saturated the images were.

The ipad was a 128gb and after the 6 months of selective image importing and editing it was full... Small jpgs... just not ideal.

I traveled Rio to Lima in South America and the wifi was poor across the board. Using a back up service was out of the question and something like lightroom sync wasn't possible either at the time but the wifi strength wouldnt have made this possible. I then traveled the US and again I was on the road a lot traveling the national parks so signal was poor and slow, in most of the hotels WIFI was not included and you had to pay for it... so weird as pretty much everywhere in the world it was free... anyway same problems.

The second 6 month trip a few weeks later I took my 11" Macbook Air i7 512 ssd and it was bliss, took 3 hard drives one 1tb ssd for edits and 2 4tbs. Kept the drives in separate places for redundancy. The nice thing is you have access to a full OS with a full suite and you can edit proper files instead of what I was doing on the ipad, editing a small jpg with no metadata then having to replicate it for a full resolution version when I got back, really time inefficient. I traveled 3 months across Africa in an overland truck around 25000 miles with this combo and it was brilliant, no worries about backing up etc I then did a 3 month stint across South East Asia.

Obviously my situation is different as I had a purpose it wasn't just an additional tool, I needed a fully functional travel companion. Until Apple gives more flexibility where these products dont rely on wifi and 4g then they are very difficult to use unless you are close to home or have one shoot and offload. Another problem is the size of it unless your at a table balancing that thing is difficult... let alone doing critical work... if your on a table use a proper machine...

The other issue is the 12" macbook is a similar weight and almost the same price...

My 11" MBA was stolen :( so I replaced it with the absolute base line 2015 1.1ghz macbook with 8gbs ram and 256gb ssd (because at the time money was an issue). It turbo boosts and it runs everything adequately and has the retina screen and excellent battery life and is about as perfect to a travel companion as it gets apart from its one port which makes attaching storage and a card reader difficult as it cant power them both at the same time... Huge over site. It will edit 4k footage in final cut no problem either its really quite impressive.

The newer 2017 versions have much more power with the M5 and M7 chips but still lack twin ports. The base MBP doesnt offer a lot more but one extra port and slightly more powerful and probably less thermal throttling.

I run a mac pro as a desktop solution and when im away its so nice to start a new lightroom catalog import my presets and edit images on the road then import it back into my library when I get back with the edits already done. If you work this way, which most pros do then having a super powerful portable isnt really needed.

When your using 30-50mb raw files cloud sync just isnt a good option eats data and takes forever.

Things are getting there the ipad just needs a port for external storage to be worth anything to a professional until then its an expensive novelty purchase.

Currently a dedicated machine is still king IMO.
 

privatebydesign

Garfield is back...
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Jan 29, 2011
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Tom,

Things have changed a lot for the iPad with iOS11 and fully working battery powered wireless solutions that integrate with the iPad well. I have used the iPad Pro and the WD My Passport Wireless 4TB very happily on trips, indeed I am sitting in Orlando airport with that setup this very minute. I use LightRoom Mobile for software.
 

tomscott

Photographer & Graphic Designer
privatebydesign said:
Tom,

Things have changed a lot for the iPad with iOS11 and fully working battery powered wireless solutions that integrate with the iPad well. I have used the iPad Pro and the WD My Passport Wireless 4TB very happily on trips, indeed I am sitting in Orlando airport with that setup this very minute. I use LightRoom Mobile for software.
They have but its still not ideal. Work can be done but its not as efficient or easy to manage. Obviously its mostly personal preference.

Ive seen the newer HDDs with built in SD cards, they seem far better solutions than the older style Hyperdrives.

Still, for size, cost and weight the difference is so minimal between say a macbook and an iPad pro that it still doesn't make sense to me and seems more of a novelty.

It might be ok for a single event, small trip or holiday but its still not there for a photographer who is on the move for an extended period of time. Like you ive traveled the world and Wifi isnt fast enough anywhere I went, most hotels throttle you and if your roughing it a bit like that option isnt always available. A mobile data plan isnt economically viable either really.

Like I said I traveled most of the US and was surprised how slow the majority of connections were even in premium hotels. It would be ok to edit the odd image to get something out but I dont think its a decent solution for image processing.

Unless you have another way of doing so?
 

privatebydesign

Garfield is back...
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Jan 29, 2011
9,060
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I don't use available WiFi or internet at all, I can work an entire trip and never connect to the internet, I don't understand what relevance available connection speeds have when my setup doesn't use an internet connection at all.

Everything is self contained and the WD My Passport sets up its own adhoc WiFi network the iPad connects to, you can then use a passthrough to get 'connected' if you want, but I never do. It is one of the HDD's with an SD card slot but it also has a USB connector that if you connect a camera to it will automatically download whatever is on the card.
 

cayenne

EOS 5D Mark IV
CR Pro
Mar 28, 2012
2,354
344
privatebydesign said:
I don't use available WiFi or internet at all, I can work an entire trip and never connect to the internet, I don't understand what relevance available connection speeds have when my setup doesn't use an internet connection at all.

Everything is self contained and the WD My Passport sets up its own adhoc WiFi network the iPad connects to, you can then use a passthrough to get 'connected' if you want, but I never do. It is one of the HDD's with an SD card slot but it also has a USB connector that if you connect a camera to it will automatically download whatever is on the card.
OH man..COOL on the wifi hard drive...Id not thought of that!! Will look into it!!

As for one of the other questions...Affinity Photo on an iPad Pro.
I've only played with it a bit, but so far, I am VERY impressed.

I have the 10.5 model, with 512GB. I have done some focus stacking with this using about 21 RAW images from my 5D3, and I was blow away how fast it worked. I can't remember the exact time (I will try to remember to do it again and time it), but it was comparable to do the same thing on my MBP 2011 with core i7, 16GB ram.

I also have been playing with Affinity Photo for the desktop, and I'm guessing they used a lot of the speedy engine that the desktop uses on the iPad version. You can do virtually ANYTHING on the iPad Pro with Affinity Photo, that you can with desktop versions of Adobe Photoshop or Affinity Photo.

It isn't a lightroom alternate....for now to do that, you're likely gonna have to pay the Adobe rental model for LR on the iPad, but Im guessing possibly in the future, those apps will come.

But if you're on the road, I'd say for short trips....you can set up and use an iPad Pro (not the regular ones) to do some heavy photo work as needed. The idea of using it in conjunction with a good wifi hard drive, should work great for you.

There is a learning curve with AP on iPad Pro...as that since you don't have keyboard shortcuts, you have to learn where to hit with the pen (and you MUST get the pen to be productive)....or what finger gestures to use. But like anything, it just takes some time to learn and develop muscle memory for.

But with AP, you can work with RAW....you can do layers, filters, brushes..etc. Again, most anything you would do with PS or AP on the desktop versions.

And the price is right for Affinity Photo...both for iPad and desktop. Perpetual license...
$50 for Desktop
$20 for iPad Pro

And so far, I've gotten a number of free updates. I've had the desktop version for about almost 2 years now I think....and I've had numerous updates free.

Definitely worth checking out, and if you get the iPad pro, I'd say it is a MUST have app for the photographer.
 

stevelee

FT-QL
CR Pro
Jul 6, 2017
1,694
560
Davidson, NC
I am retired, so I don't do "work." My ancient laptop is now used only when I need to send a fax to a company that owes me money and I can't contact them any other way than sending a fax. So far that has been just American Airlines. Their customer service person agreed that they owed me $25, but couldn't take care of the credit itself, and the web page to contact the right people was broken (same problem on another page that caused the extra charge in the first place). So she spent a half hour on the phone trying to fix things, and eventually found a mailing address and fax number for me to use. To their credit, once the fax got there, they had put the refund on my credit card in a couple of days. Sorry, I didn't mean to go into that rant. But that shows why I need to hang on to an ancient iBook that weighs like a brick, but never would take it on an airplane.

So when I travel, I have my iPhone and my 9.7" iPad Pro and no computer. That works for me. I want to spend my time sightseeing and taking pictures and not "working" on them. I also don't take my DSLR, unless photography is the main purpose of the trip. I haven't done a trip like that since I've had a DSLR, but I might some time. As it is, the G7X II is more than adequate for my purposes (post web pages, print some 13" x 19" pictures to hang about the house, and maybe even a panorama on roll paper, as I have framed over my mantel), and it fits in my pocket. If I do want to review the pictures I have taken at a size large than the camera screen, the wifi connection between camera and iPad works just fine.

I have tried Lightroom's iPad incarnation, just for grins, and started editing something on the iPad and continued on the iMac at home. That process seemed to work OK, but I've never found the need or urge to try it again. I'm more of an ACR than a Lightroom guy.

On January 2 I got back from 2 1/2 weeks in Hawaii followed by a week in Southern California. So far I've gone through 877 pictures from the 7-night cruise that began the trip. (Good thing that photography was not the main point.) And I have chosen from those seven pages of pictures and video to post to the internet, plus a couple of YouTube movies. Now I just have about 700 more Hawaii pictures to deal with, plus 280 from California. I'm glad I didn't undertake any of this during the trip, when I should have been out going places and doing things.

I apologize to those of you whose situation and experience are so different from mine that this post was a complete waste of your time. My intent was to give some alternative perspective, and I'm not sure I really did.
 

cayenne

EOS 5D Mark IV
CR Pro
Mar 28, 2012
2,354
344
Well, with me, it's not usually a working travel situation either....

However, I DO enjoy taking pictures and doing work on them...I enjoy developing the RAW images, and doing fun things like compositing, focus stacking, panos....etc.

I also like dabbling in abstract photography and post processing, so, that's one of my interests. I do usually take my DSLR with me on times with time off, to not only shoot my destination, but if on long holiday visits at family locations, on down time, I play with this type stuff, and I find that iPad Pro with Affinity Photo on it allows me to do this, and for just drawing and such I also added Procreate into the mix.

Again, it all depends on your workflows, and the purpose of your travels and photos on the trip.
 

stevelee

FT-QL
CR Pro
Jul 6, 2017
1,694
560
Davidson, NC
cayenne said:
Well, with me, it's not usually a working travel situation either....

However, I DO enjoy taking pictures and doing work on them...I enjoy developing the RAW images, and doing fun things like compositing, focus stacking, panos....etc.

I also like dabbling in abstract photography and post processing, so, that's one of my interests. I do usually take my DSLR with me on times with time off, to not only shoot my destination, but if on long holiday visits at family locations, on down time, I play with this type stuff, and I find that iPad Pro with Affinity Photo on it allows me to do this, and for just drawing and such I also added Procreate into the mix.

Again, it all depends on your workflows, and the purpose of your travels and photos on the trip.
Yep, exactly.

A couple of quick things: When I was young I was very serious about photography. I finally went for almost ten years without taking a camera with me at all when I traveled so I would actually see and do things. In 2000 I thought it was finally safe to take a compact film camera with me to Eastern Europe. I did OK, but almost had a relapse in Prague. I found a place that still sold slide film and bought more every day. If I ever go back there, it will be an unapologetically photo-oriented trip. (And maybe beer-drinking, too, though I'm not much of a drinker.)

I too really enjoy developing RAW files, etc. Going through and organizing and processing pictures after a trip is a great way to recall it and cement memories in my mind. I'm not disciplined enough to keep from getting too carried away with that fun while on a trip, so what works for you wouldn't work for me, which I guess is the message from both of us.
 

tomscott

Photographer & Graphic Designer
privatebydesign said:
I don't use available WiFi or internet at all, I can work an entire trip and never connect to the internet, I don't understand what relevance available connection speeds have when my setup doesn't use an internet connection at all.

Everything is self contained and the WD My Passport sets up its own adhoc WiFi network the iPad connects to, you can then use a passthrough to get 'connected' if you want, but I never do. It is one of the HDD's with an SD card slot but it also has a USB connector that if you connect a camera to it will automatically download whatever is on the card.
Im glad it works for you. It would make me nervous working like this.

Excuse me if im wrong, just struggling to make sense of it.

Im sure its fine if your not road that long like a holiday etc where you will have enough cards to have a back up and have confidence in one drive and it being self contained on the ipad.

The main reason is again back up, lightroom CC is a cloud based service and it syncs back to the cloud. Not having a connection means no sync. Its not like you can grab the catalog and send it to an external drive so your edits are safe.

Although you can keep it backed up physically on the device 64, 128 or 256gb Ipads wouldn't last long in an extended period if your shooting any modern camera file of 30mbs+ per RAW. Im assuming you cant just back up your Lightroom library on an iPad like you can on a standard machine, so if your outputting a JPG and not bothered about the edit then fair enough. But if the ipad goes missing so does all your work? When your on the road for a few months it just doesnt seem ideal.

Lets say you can back it up, and attaching by wifi is a decent solution for you its also the cost you pay for it. A standard 4TB drive is £100 and £205 (currently on amazon) for the WD drive SD wifi HDD doesnt really sounds great to me and because you have no plugable machine how would you make two copies and ensure both have the same data? If you used two of that drive you would be offloading the same card twice.

I use a lot of data I shot around 150,000 images in a 3 month stint and roughly 600 videos. This ended up taking up around 7TB. Traveling with one drive isnt suitable for me. I need redundancy incase the drive fails or a bag gets taken.

When you can do the same workflow that would match a standalone desktop, have a catalogue, shoot your images, drop the cards onto the drive, edit the images and use a second drive to back it up while you go do something else... so you have two copies. Then when you get home just merge the catalogue... Just seems such an easier workflow and the nature of the iPad makes life harder for a traveling pro.

Ipad 256gb £919
drives £410
£1329

Fair investment for an iPad, when you can have a fully fledged OS machine for the same price with the ease of plugging in any accessory and having the use of the rest of the CC suite and they have almost the same footprint and similar weight. One day it will all work but at the moment its still not there.

With the idea of vacationing to get away, relax and not edit images... Traveling is slightly different to vacationing. If your away for 3-6-12 months and shoot say 50,000 images sorting it all when you get back is a pain. With a vacation your away for a short period and can sort it when you get back or if you want to edit the odd image after dinner etc its nice and easy.

For example when I traveled Africa and South America getting to destinations takes a long time some of the night buses were 12-14 hours, on the overland trucks a lot of the journeys were 10 hours to get to destinations there is a lot of time out traveling vast countries and its a good excuse to be productive otherwise the days and miles are long.
 

stevelee

FT-QL
CR Pro
Jul 6, 2017
1,694
560
Davidson, NC
tomscott said:
If your away for 3-6-12 months and shoot say 50,000 images sorting it all when you get back is a pain. With a vacation your away for a short period and can sort it when you get back or if you want to edit the odd image after dinner etc its nice and easy.
Yes, that is quite a different thing. Were I to be gone for that length of time, I'd definitely buy a fairly powerful MacBook Pro. I wouldn't want to be away from a computer that long, and definitely not be away from Photoshop.
 

privatebydesign

Garfield is back...
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Jan 29, 2011
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I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything, just offering first hand experience of available options many haven't heard about.

I am happy to do a three month trip with the iPad and wireless HDD. If you are backup anal then you can save the best images to HDD and iPad, iPads are now 512GB.

I wouldn't necessarily recommend buying an iPad and HDD specifically for the job if imaging work was the specific reason for the trip but it is a very workable solution now, I had an iPad and wanted to take more data with me on travels so got the HDD, from that I started using them for my images too. But they are a realistic and workable option now.

My iPad LR app is not the cloud based version. It is, as I use it, a mobile enabled version that is an extension of my desktop LR. I don't sync anything via Adobe I do it all locally on my home network when I return.
 

StoicalEtcher

EOS RP
CR Pro
Jan 3, 2018
332
266
Yorkshire
privatebydesign said:
I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything, just offering first hand experience of available options many haven't heard about.

I am happy to do a three month trip with the iPad and wireless HDD. If you are backup anal then you can save the best images to HDD and iPad, iPads are now 512GB.

I wouldn't necessarily recommend buying an iPad and HDD specifically for the job if imaging work was the specific reason for the trip but it is a very workable solution now, I had an iPad and wanted to take more data with me on travels so got the HDD, from that I started using them for my images too. But they are a realistic and workable option now.

My iPad LR app is not the cloud based version. It is, as I use it, a mobile enabled version that is an extension of my desktop LR. I don't sync anything via Adobe I do it all locally on my home network when I return.
PBD,

Many thanks for going to the length to explain your set-up - it sounds intriguing, and very much like a workable solution. I've been toying with various options myself, much along the lines of iPad vs MBP etc.

A couple of questions, if you have time;
1. when using iPad and WD Wireless, does the convo allow you to "see" the hard drive, to organise folders etc?
2. do you have any software loaded on the WD (such as LR, Photoshop, etc) that can be used rather than having the app on the iPad?

Many thanks
Stoical
 

privatebydesign

Garfield is back...
CR Pro
Jan 29, 2011
9,060
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StoicalEtcher said:
PBD,

Many thanks for going to the length to explain your set-up - it sounds intriguing, and very much like a workable solution. I've been toying with various options myself, much along the lines of iPad vs MBP etc.

A couple of questions, if you have time;
1. when using iPad and WD Wireless, does the convo allow you to "see" the hard drive, to organise folders etc?
2. do you have any software loaded on the WD (such as LR, Photoshop, etc) that can be used rather than having the app on the iPad?

Many thanks
Stoical
Hi there Stoical,

1/ The way the iPad currently 'sees' the WD is via a WD app called My Cloud, which is a bit of a misnomer as it isn't cloud based it is local, you can use true cloud storage if you want to but I don't as I never know when I will have access. when you open the App you get the file structure and can organize it and reorganize it as you are inclined. When you want to work on specific images just select them either singly or as a group and choose 'Open in....LR' and you get the image/s in LR.

There is a push to WD to get the file structure recognized natively in iOS11 just like Dropbox etc are, this should be a software thing but who knows, certainly if it is done then the use of the wireless HDD will open up exponentially.

2/ No, I don't even think that is doable, but it isn't something I have looked into. The way I use the combo is pretty basic, I import my entire card to the HDD by connecting my camera to the USB port on the drive (I don't use SD cards much so can't use the built in SD slot), I then select the best/most interesting images and open them in LR and do any adjustments needed, then output to wherever direct from LR. This means I have all the important images in two places, on the HDD and on the iPad, I can even keep the card depending on use requirements for a third copy, but the truth is I don't care too much about multiple backups, my images are not that valuable or precious and I am normally happy with all of the RAW files on the HDD with the best also on the iPad, and I'll reuse the cards if I need to.

If I don't need to reuse the cards I will often just import them again when I get home as I find they always look different on a bigger screen. But if I reused the cards then I'd import from the HDD and sync the adjustments from LR.

If I was on a image critical trip, my backup solution would be enough cards to never have to format on the road and even when I am on a commercial shoot I am a low volume shooter and can easily go several months with a modest selection of cards.

Not saying any of this is the right way for anybody else, but it works well enough for me.

Incidentally I originally got the iPad Pro to work with my CamRange and it still does regular duty with that combo too. I have found the iPad to be a very useful photographic tool.
 

StoicalEtcher

EOS RP
CR Pro
Jan 3, 2018
332
266
Yorkshire
PBD,

Many thanks - appreciate your response, and really helpful.

Like you, I tend to take enough cards on shoots /travels to ensure I don't have to overwrite at all - I see it as my fall back to whatever I've backed up to (if that makes sense ;) )

I also use an iPad as a CamRanger controller - mostly to save my back on low level shots!

Cheers

Stoical
 

lion rock

EOS 5D Mark IV
Jan 1, 2013
1,920
37
I don't have the PRO version of iPAD. But I ramble on:
I have a couple of issues ---
With regular iPAD, there is no direct adaptor for CF card, just SD card. I'm told that to import from CF cards, the iPAD has to be jail broken to enable higher power delivered to the CF card reader.
Then, my experience is that photos imported are assigned with random file numbers not consecutive ones. Further, I think the file sizes are reduced.
So, I'm not truly happy to use the iPAD for editing, though I have with a defunct (by new iOS) editor, "PhotoGene".
.jpg files imported and reviewed or for simple show&tell is fine.
-r
 

privatebydesign

Garfield is back...
CR Pro
Jan 29, 2011
9,060
3,176
120
lion rock said:
I don't have the PRO version of iPAD. But I ramble on:
I have a couple of issues ---
With regular iPAD, there is no direct adaptor for CF card, just SD card. I'm told that to import from CF cards, the iPAD has to be jail broken to enable higher power delivered to the CF card reader.
Then, my experience is that photos imported are assigned with random file numbers not consecutive ones. Further, I think the file sizes are reduced.
So, I'm not truly happy to use the iPAD for editing, though I have with a defunct (by new iOS) editor, "PhotoGene".
.jpg files imported and reviewed or for simple show&tell is fine.
-r
Apple do make some very curious decisions sometimes with regards locking features out, it's almost like they and Canon came from the same school.

Anyway, I use CF and CFast cards mostly, and I upload to the iPad via the the USB dongle connected to the camera. This relies on the power from the camera so negates your issue, but my iPad is the Pro model and I don't know if that makes a difference.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1241761-REG/apple_mk0w2am_a_lightning_to_usb_3_0.html
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,063
341
Vancouver, BC
You guys should consider a Surface Pro 8)

There are no problems using any type of card that you want, CF, SD, whatever -- all at USB3 speeds, and you can use the proper Canon Remote Shooting utility, which is a zillion times more complete and powerful than the iOS/Android phone/tablet apps. Also, DPP to view RAWs, or desktop Lightroom to do stuff, and to print. And it runs real Photoshop. Plus, you have real SSD storage instead of the Flash crap. The difference in handling 30MB+ files is huge.

For me, a proper file system and OS is nice too, as it means that if I'm just waiting around, I can easily sort photos. For some cameras, like my 80D (but not 6D2), the OS natively reads the RAW files, which is so freaking amazingly useful -- instead of blank icons, there are previews in the file explorer, you can just double clicking a RAW and open it in the system photo viewer, and swipe through them. For whatever reason, it's also instant loading times, unlike programs like DPP, which have a pause selection and un-blurred preview.

The form factor is versatile, too: you can mount it onto a tripod or light stand as a tablet, or, you can use it as a laptop with a proper keyboard/touchpad or mouse.

The latest SP (2017 version) is also fanless and has much better battery life than its predecessors, particularly in sleep mode. I'm very happy with mine!

No, I do not work for Microsoft ;D
 

martti

EOS RP
May 11, 2014
692
11
21.1144° S, 55.5325° E
Apple has taken a close look at Android and finally introduced the "Files" -app.
You can see what it does from here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI9HT3Qaeyg


Does it find files from an external WiFi disk?
I would be surprised if it didn't.


There are these external "clip" type memory extenders as well: https://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/iphone/best-external-storage-drives-for-iphone-ipad-3579792/


Has Surface Pro resolved the quality issues they used to have? http://observer.com/2017/08/consumer-reports-microsoft-surface-quality-control-apple-win/
They had 10-17% return rate at launch. Kind of too high.