I just wanted to clarify things about the EOS R5 and EOS R6 from yesterday’s report

WriteLight

Landscape and Architecture, R5
CR Pro
Mar 15, 2020
62
76
Des Moines, IA
I think Canon Rumors and PetaPixel need to collect themselves. Online journalism is still journalism, and there are norms that are being violated.

Specifically, there are no "reports" that there is going to be a recall. There is no source - other than personal speculation - that Canon has any intent whatsoever to provide a fix for any perceived problems. Because Canon Rumors is a rumors site, it often uses first person voice to describe what it's been told. In this instance, it did not vary its voice, nor its attribution pattern, when speculating about some fairly radical action it thinks Canon might take. Of course this becomes a "report" in another (lax) editorial site.

Petapixel is considered a trusted news feeder to Google News and other aggregators. There are now real, tertiary stories being done about the Petapixel report on a report by Canon Rumors Guy about a report by some vlogger. In each of these cases, there is a breakdown in source disclosure policy. I wouldn't be able to get any of this BS past any of my editors from back when I was slinging copy.

The proper news here is that Canon A) released a camera that is has short duration video capabilities in certain formats, and B) may not reach stated capabilities regarding cooling and time (though Canon did use weasel phrasing), and C) isn't it fun to watch video people have hissies before they go buy the A7S3, which will make them much happier. Pick one of those angles, but if you're going to make a new one with a "I wonder if..", then call it that.
"If your mother says she loves you, check the source."
 
D

Deleted member 378221

Guest
What if it's discovered that using a battery grip and external recorder fix many of the video issues? I haven't seen anyone testing video with a battery grip and, by most accounts, the battery is getting extremely hot in addition to the CFExpress card.
Gerald Undone mentioned it in his 3 hours livestream, but there's no way I can find the exact time. Hea said using a battery grib did not make a difference for him.
Esternal recorder however helps a lot, basically 4K60 unlimited going to a Ninja V. But you won't be able to use 4k120, 4k HQ or 8k for even a minute once you've built up the internal heat this way.

I want to see this camera succeed and obviously Canon does as well...it will be fixed. We may actually be thanking these YouTubers when it's all said and done because the camera will be better.
Yeah, that's what I don't get here. How can you not be okay with people pointing out flaws and Canon being pushed to fixing them. Even if it's not your use case, how does this hurt you?
 
  • Like
Reactions: CvH and unfocused

Ramage

EOS R5
CR Pro
Aug 27, 2019
589
1,192
If we are being realistic about the video issues, the problem lies in the unpredictability of the higher end modes. They work... but with too many different caveats. From a cold start, we can expect 8K30p, 4K60, Oversampled 4K30 & 4K120 to work anywhere from 15-30 minutes. In real world use though, it is very rare that we will be using the high end modes right off the bat.

I will say it is unpredictable until you switch to the mode you want, at that point you are shown on screen you have xx:xx time in this mode. If it is zero then that is a non starter. If it says 5mins and you have not idea how long the shot is going to take that is also a non starter.

You would expect to turn on the camera, shoot some photos, shoot some normal videos, and then you may decide to use one of the better quality modes. The issue is by spending some time in these non-critical modes, you eat up available resources so when it's time to use 8K or 4K120, at that point the camera may already be indicating that the available run time is shorter, and even worse, it may already indicate that the camera is too hot to operate in these modes. Imagine shooting a wedding reception and filming at a reasonable 4K24p... then an important part, like cake cutting, or a speech or something starts, I would want to switch to a higher quality mode to film this brief event... but, you might not be able to do that. That is painfully unreliable for client work. There's no waiting around to cool down, or re-takes in a scenario like this. There are only two ways to deal with this. Either 1) Be relegated to the fact that you will be topping out at 4K24p normal mode or 2) You will need additional gear. Either a second body that stays cold until its time for these high end shots or an external recorder, which would top out at 4K60. (Oversampled 4K would actually still overheat.)

Let me start by saying I am not discounting this use case, but I will say how are people solving this issue today? If they are using Cameras without the higher quality modes like the EOS R they are simply recording the event in the mode that works. I would argue the R5 has modes that just work. If Canon unlocks 1080 120 or 240 that is not thermal limited they are giving that same EOS R wedding shooter another tool. I wish 4k 120 was not thermal restricted cause this will be where I make money, but since I have been making money with the R's CRAP 720 this is going to be a joy:)

As it is, the Camera will be fine if you can accept 4K30/24 in non oversampled mode. This is a step up for most Canon users anyway, since we are used to filming in FHD or 4K with a crop on an EOS R, 5DMkIV etc... Also, an external recorder like the Atomos Ninja V is a viable option as it allows up to 4K60p pretty much without limitation. (Again HQ 4K will overheat). But if you have any plans to use 8K, 4K120 or 4K Oversampled... it will require forethought and planning, because you may not be able to use these modes at any given time.

Agreed

What can be done? I really doubt that there is a physical fix that is economically feasible for Canon. That leaves a firmware fix. In order to make this a success, we need reliable access to the higher end modes even after moderate use. I want to be able to shoot lower end modes and stills and know that once I switch it to 8K or 4K120 I can have 15 minutes of usage time no matter what. This might mean taking the limiter off it when I say I need it and accepting any consequences that may come with it. It's the same as running a car at redline. I won't always do it, but when I want or need to use it, let me do it. Hopefully it isn't that extreme and here's hoping that Canon was super conservative in the implementation of the automatic shut downs in overheated modes, and there is some room for dialing it back.
 

unfocused

EOS-1D X Mark III
Jul 20, 2010
6,418
4,064
68
Springfield, IL
www.mgordoncommunications.com
Serious questions: Are the video features of the 1Dx III comparable to the R5? Have these issues been found in the 1DX III?

If not, why not?

The 1Dx III should be better sealed than the R5, so it should hold heat in even more than the R5, right? If you subtract the size of the battery grip, the 1Dx III isn't all that much larger, so what could they have done in the 1Dx III to dissipate the heat so much more effectively?
 

AlanF

Stay at home
CR Pro
Aug 16, 2012
8,880
12,170
Serious questions: Are the video features of the 1Dx III comparable to the R5? Have these issues been found in the 1DX III?

If not, why not?

The 1Dx III should be better sealed than the R5, so it should hold heat in even more than the R5, right? If you subtract the size of the battery grip, the 1Dx III isn't all that much larger, so what could they have done in the 1Dx III to dissipate the heat so much more effectively?
Remove IBIS.
 

cornieleous

5D4 + R5
Jul 13, 2020
208
737
Are you kidding me? There's enough reports on it right now. What if it is from "Youtubers", does that make the findings invalid?
The camera overheats in standby or sometimes when taking pictures. It's currently unredictable, but once the heat is "in" it can take hours to be able to use 4K120 even for a minute.

How is this helping? Noone is "saving the world" here. But it would be nice to be able to use the advertised functions reliably even in the middle of a shooting day, not only when the camera is fresh.


How is whining endlessly helping? Describe to me how all these baseless claims repeating what you saw online amount to helping. For many of us, we know what the R5 is and it doesn't need your help. Works well here so far. I'll let you all know if it doesn't in a constructive, non hyped way.

Heat is not unpredictable, it is actually simple. The hotter the ambient air, the less a source can cool. The more the camera is doing, the more heat it produces. Most balanced reviewers are not claiming the R5 cannot shoot stills or low frame rate video in any condition any other DSLR cannot. The high frame rate video is the issue, and some reviewers have shown the A7S3 ALSO overheating before the Canon in two different tests. So what is the real point? There is no perfect camera, particularly no perfect hybrid camera. Hybrid designs always compromise something.

So you are going only on reviewers and not your own experiences? I OWN the R5 and am putting it through its paces while you watch youtube reviewers who make their living on click bait. Yes, youtube being the source makes many reports unreliable. There are too many amateur and emotional reviews and not enough science, rigor and fairness. Most of the larger reviewer channels are either egotistical an opinionated, or paid shills with sponsors. I'd no more trust them for the whole story than I would the Canon ambassadors.

There are also contradictory reports to the ones you are cherry picking about the overheat problems. Yes the camera has a heat issue, well defined by Canon prior to purchase- no one is going to make you buy this, it is clearly NOT for you. Yet you all want the camera to be something else than was described to you by Canon- so go buy it! Go get your Sony.

I am fine with the argument that Canon marketing screwed up by not being more cautious when advertising the video features, which confused people who don't know any better. This cannot be a dedicated video camera: Anyone who understands physics, some basic electronics, and how heat dissipates would realize a high MP sensor reading out at high bit rates is going to produce a lot of heat. Add weather sealing, IBIS which floats the sensor without a big heat sink, and it is super obvious there would be limits. Plus, Canon told you there would be. I get it that for uninformed people, Canon should have been even more clear on the limits rather than touting the 8K and high 4K modes so loudly.

I'm also fine with the argument that the heating issue can and should be improved if possible.

I'm not fine with the way the vast majority are expressing their concerns with constant whining saying that Canon cheated people, or the product is fatally flawed when that has not been proven with any logical reasoning. Just garbage hype from a select few. Again, every reasonable person realizes this is a weather sealed stills camera with short duty video capability. Since day one, all the people who blindly follow social media and youtube were convinced that this was a video camera when it so clearly isn't. Canon marketing may have messed up, but they also could never have prepared for how dumb and entitled people have become.

I own cameras from other brands including a dedicated Sony camera for video, and I am no brand elitist. When I have a problem with a product I CONTACT THAT COMPANY instead of whining over and over and over in random internet forums. I don't waste my time getting frustrated over things I don't own, I just look for something else and move on. I have no issue with being critical of a product constructively, it is the way you are all going about it- repeating what others said as if you know they are facts and then bashing the company mercilessly.
 

nchoh

EOS RP
Apr 3, 2018
310
196
Calgary
This is why they must do something, no matter how many people defend Canon and say they don't care about video etc Their market valuation is what the people at Canon will be going to bed and waking up thinking about. And its a nightmare.

Their Stock has been slammed since launch, and trading at 21 year low on very high volumes. Not since 1999 have we seen these valuations. Which means that analyst with alot more information than us, that have both industry and company specific data see this launch as a failure, that will negatively impact financials.

With valuations like this, they will do something, and the market is already pricing some of that in. These are the kind of things that lead to layoffs, I don't want to see people lose their jobs, I hope they solve it.

View attachment 191718

View attachment 191719

1596225709172.png


Stock has been going down because demand of cameras has dropped. No really because of the R5 and R6 issues. However if Canon is able to prove that it can keep it's camera division profitable, then it's stock will at least stabilize.
 

BakaBokeh

EOS 90D
CR Pro
May 16, 2020
199
429
Serious questions: Are the video features of the 1Dx III comparable to the R5? Have these issues been found in the 1DX III?

If not, why not?

The 1Dx III should be better sealed than the R5, so it should hold heat in even more than the R5, right? If you subtract the size of the battery grip, the 1Dx III isn't all that much larger, so what could they have done in the 1Dx III to dissipate the heat so much more effectively?

Comparable in some respect, yes, and no reported overheating that I'm aware of. However the 4K60 does not have dual pixel autofocus. It also does not do 8K, 4K120. It oversamples from 5 or 6K but not 8K like the R5. These are all the overheating offenders.

The bigger body might have something to do with it. Also, the lower resolution 20.1 MP probably has a lot to do with it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bert63 and Nelu
D

Deleted member 378221

Guest
I will say it is unpredictable until you switch to the mode you want, at that point you are shown on screen you have xx:xx time in this mode. If it is zero then that is a non starter. If it says 5mins and you have not idea how long the shot is going to take that is also a non starter.
Again this is almost deliberately missing the point. Basically what we have here is "Schroedingers 4K60". You don't know if you can still use 4K60/4K120 unless you try it when you actually need it.

So unless you check it at every occasion the behavior is unpredictable in my book. I find it unpredictable if I cannot gauge if I will be able to still use anything above 4K30 later that day. I will not be able to predict the exact shooting conditions (weather, length of video) and whether that will allow me to use any of the higher modes at all.

The problem is that heat dissipation takes incredibly long, so that once you hit the threshold you're pretty much done for the day with the higher video modes.

You semantics of "well, you can just check and then it's not upredictable anymore" is just absurd, sorry.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CvH

privatebydesign

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jan 29, 2011
10,522
5,779
Serious questions: Are the video features of the 1Dx III comparable to the R5? Have these issues been found in the 1DX III?

If not, why not?

The 1Dx III should be better sealed than the R5, so it should hold heat in even more than the R5, right? If you subtract the size of the battery grip, the 1Dx III isn't all that much larger, so what could they have done in the 1Dx III to dissipate the heat so much more effectively?
There are lots of reasons why nobody has reported issues with the 1DX III, not least of which it doesn't shoot 8k, nor 4k 120, probably because there is no way Canon would push their 1 series that hard with untested (put to market) tech. But the 1 series also does not have IBIS which acts as a sensor isolator complicating heat mitigation and they do have room and experience inside the 1 series bodies to engineer some heat away.

Having been a 1 series user for years I am sometimes disappointed in how conservative Canon are with that model, when things like this happen I am very glad they are.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mppix and Ramage
D

Deleted member 378221

Guest
[...] whining [...] baseless claims [...]
For many of us, we know what the R5 is and it doesn't need your help. Works well here so far. I'll let you all know if it doesn't in a constructive, non hyped way.
We get it, you are the authority on what the R5 can do and when exactly it overheats or not, and everyone else is just lying to get clicks. Yeah, not gonna reply to the rest of this as we're going around in circles. :)
 

cornieleous

5D4 + R5
Jul 13, 2020
208
737
Serious questions: Are the video features of the 1Dx III comparable to the R5? Have these issues been found in the 1DX III?

If not, why not?

The 1Dx III should be better sealed than the R5, so it should hold heat in even more than the R5, right? If you subtract the size of the battery grip, the 1Dx III isn't all that much larger, so what could they have done in the 1Dx III to dissipate the heat so much more effectively?

So many simple reasons.

  1. The R5 body is a LOT smaller than the 1DX3, guessing you have not seen a side by side. It is smaller than a 5D4 and even a 6D
  2. There is no evidence the R5 is not sealed nearly or as well as the 1DX3- it is fully weather sealed. Any differences are going to be completely insignificant thermally.
  3. 1DX3 doesn't do high bit rate video (4K120, 4KHQ and 8K)
  4. 1DX3 has a much smaller sensor resolution which is faster to read out so less heat generated per read cycle.
  5. IBIS requires floating the sensor on a suspension without a large heat sink mass, so cooling is harder.
  6. Electronic viewfinder and screen running all the time on R5, more power.
  7. etc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nelu

cornieleous

5D4 + R5
Jul 13, 2020
208
737
We get it, you are the authority on what the R5 can do and when exactly it overheats or not, and everyone else is just lying to get clicks. Yeah, not gonna reply to the rest of this as we're going around in circles. :)

Could care less, don't expect you to put any effort into replying since you don't put any into getting an objective viewpoint either.

I'm no authority, I'm just calling out irrational bashing and non constructive activities.
 

Ramage

EOS R5
CR Pro
Aug 27, 2019
589
1,192
Again this is almost deliberately missing the point. Basically what we have here is "Schroedingers 4K60". You don't know if you can still use 4K60/4K120 unless you try it when you actually need it.

So unless you check it at every occasion the behavior is unpredictable in my book. I find it unpredictable if I cannot gauge if I will be able to still use anything above 4K30 later that day. I will not be able to predict the exact shooting conditions (weather, length of video) and whether that will allow me to use any of the higher modes at all.

The problem is that heat dissipation takes incredibly long, so that once you hit the threshold you're pretty much done for the day with the higher video modes.

You semantics of "well, you can just check and then it's not upredictable anymore" is just absurd, sorry.
But again if you NEED those modes 100% of time the R5 is not for you. Does that suck? Sure if you need modes never offered in a Canon camera before but again only you know if you NEED those modes.

If I needed an 8K 100% predictable Camera I would not choose the R5, if I needed a 100% reliable 4K60 Camera I would not choose the R5. If I needed a Camera with dual card slots I would not choose the Z6, or the EOS R.

The R5 is a BIG step up from the R and the MKIV and I think when you get a chance to try your Camera you will agree.
 

cornieleous

5D4 + R5
Jul 13, 2020
208
737
Cut the guy a little slack. He's just asking before buying. Can't blame him for doing a little due diligence before plucking down $4,000, especially if he has to pay for it with weddings that are not exactly big business right now.
I would but he is not asking, he is assuming he knows when there are contradictory reviews all over.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bert63

Nelu

1-DX Mark III, EOS R5, EOS R
CR Pro
Imagine being an early adopter and getting the worst version of the hardware before Canon improves it for future allocations.
Yeah, I guess it's just terrible when someone is forcing your hand to click the "Pre-order" button and lets you without a choice...
I can't even imagine such an ordeal! I'm feeling for you so much...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bert63

mpmark

EOS RP
Aug 9, 2016
235
278
Yeah the cool down is bad, I think Canon being Canon insulated the camera so well that it defends itself better in direct sunlight but like a thermos once the heat is in it that heats stays in the camera for a long time.

I will say the 3 hour Youtube stream Gerald Undone did where the R6 overheated when sending the signal externally at 60P pretty quick into the chat but just would not die running 30P should be a sign the the high bit rate writing internally is a least part of the issue. So a firmware update could be a simple and fast fix.

I don't think weather sealing has anything to do with heat dissipation in this case. Dissipation is challenging when creating a floating sensor for IBIS, as its not phsically against a heat dissipating surface. This camera has NO ISSUES as stills camera, and what "I" only care about, its when you try and satisfy 2 different worlds of usage into one you get issues.

Stills photographers want small and sealed. With video resolution become so high in resolution you're going to have to cool it, unfortunately you cant please photographers and cinematographers in this way. They should have had 2 separate bodies, the video body could have proper cooling system which would suffer on weather sealing and size. end of story.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CvH and Nelu

WriteLight

Landscape and Architecture, R5
CR Pro
Mar 15, 2020
62
76
Des Moines, IA
Just want to jump in here with my $.02....I've had the R5 since yesterday afternoon. First off, the image quality is absolutely stunning (using an RF 24-105 f/4) and the autofocus is so good it's tough to describe. I was able to hand-hold a 3 second shot and have it come out sharp, which speaks to how good the IBIS is. I'm going to test to see how it does in low light tonight and can't wait to see how that turns out.

For those wondering about CFexpress compatibility, I am using the Sony Tough 128 GB card (1700/1480) with absolutely no issues.

I can't jump in on the overheating issue, one because it won't be very relevant to me as a 95% stills shooter and so I haven't really tested it, but when I do switch to video it will to do 4k @120 for slow-motion. I haven't even figured out how to access 120fps in the menu yet as I haven't found it as an option. I will note that it is a bit of a pain to switch between photo and video modes, so that will take some getting used to.

I have found the EVF to be stunning. I have tested it with some 20fps bursts with no issues in lag or delay, and the quality/refresh is spectacular.

I'm coming from the 70D, so the joystick will take some getting used to although I really enjoy it. I do wish the control wheel by the set button had directional control as well like the 70D did, but with the joystick there it makes sense.

I was really anxious about the purchase, but so far I have no regrets. The overheating drama is white noise to me, although if I ever run into heat generation issues just from stills then my tune will change.
 
D

Deleted member 378221

Guest
But again if you NEED those modes 100% of time the R5 is not for you.

Well, I think there's a difference between "needing those modes 100% of the time" and "being able to use these advertised modes when you actually do need them, even if it's just for a minute". And the latter can't seeem to be guaranteed.
I mean they advertised those modes heavily, and it's fine that there are some heat limitations. I don't think it's as fine that it make the modes unpredictable due the heat buildup that almost never goes away.

For the photo shooters, how would you feel if Canon advertised the camera with 45MP and 12fps, but after a couple of hours it would just drop to 20MP and 3fps, and even after shutting it off it could take two hours of off-time to recover. Would anyone agree that is fine and expected? :)

Does that suck? Sure if you need modes never offered in a Canon camera before but again only you know if you NEED those modes.
I'm sorry if I'm expecting more video features in a camera marketed for video than in my 5D Mark IV or my 1DX Mark II. Other manufacturers seem to be able to push forward. How is the "never offered before" even an argument? :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: CvH

Ramage

EOS R5
CR Pro
Aug 27, 2019
589
1,192
Just want to jump in here with my $.02....I've had the R5 since yesterday afternoon. First off, the image quality is absolutely stunning (using an RF 24-105 f/4) and the autofocus is so good it's tough to describe. I was able to hand-hold a 3 second shot and have it come out sharp, which speaks to how good the IBIS is. I'm going to test to see how it does in low light tonight and can't wait to see how that turns out.

For those wondering about CFexpress compatibility, I am using the Sony Tough 128 GB card (1700/1480) with absolutely no issues.

I can't jump in on the overheating issue, one because it won't be very relevant to me as a 95% stills shooter and so I haven't really tested it, but when I do switch to video it will to do 4k @120 for slow-motion. I haven't even figured out how to access 120fps in the menu yet as I haven't found it as an option. I will note that it is a bit of a pain to switch between photo and video modes, so that will take some getting used to.

I have found the EVF to be stunning. I have tested it with some 20fps bursts with no issues in lag or delay, and the quality/refresh is spectacular.

I'm coming from the 70D, so the joystick will take some getting used to although I really enjoy it. I do wish the control wheel by the set button had directional control as well like the 70D did, but with the joystick there it makes sense.

I was really anxious about the purchase, but so far I have no regrets. The overheating drama is white noise to me, although if I ever run into heat generation issues just from stills then my tune will change.
To get into 120 you need to be not in 4K fine(HQ) and then you select High Frame rate in the menus
1596227316778.png


sorry about the cellphone pic