Initial testing shows Canon’s new 32.5mp APS-C sensor improves dynamic range over predecessor

Chaitanya

EOS R
Jun 27, 2013
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Looks fairly decent, especially at ISO 800 to 1600 range I do end up shooting from time to time. though I still wish Canon should have removed AA filter which is going to kill a lot of sharpness.
 

SecureGSM

2 x 5D IV
Feb 26, 2017
2,376
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This discussion was started in the Download D90 thread. I'll copy my posting from there to move the discussion here.

I am very suspicious about the analysis on the FM site. The DR at high iso with efficient modern sensors, which are of very similar efficiency, is limited mainly by the photon flux and at any given high iso is nearly the same for all the leading makes and for their different models for the same size sensor. And FF are about an ev higher than APS-C. The FM analysis has nearly an ev increase of the 90D over the 80D, putting it close to that of the 5DIV and 1DXII and leaping ahead of Nikon and Sony APS-Cs by more than you thinks the physics would allow.
Hi Alan, did you miss the word “normalised”? My understanding of this is that they downsampled a larger 90D file down to 24MP and than compared with the original 80D file at 24MP.
Makes sense? :)
If that is the case, then naturally... 90D file’s are better downsampled. Correct me if I am wrong here.
 

Normalnorm

EOS RP
Dec 25, 2012
683
305
TBH, there may be an incremental improvement or a massive improvement. We will be told by someone doing "tests" and then the various factions will flock to their positions on the issue without ever making so much as one image with the cameras.
Meanwhile endless images will be uploaded "proving" the failure or genius of the sensor and showing us yet another pic of their dog.
 

addola

Sold my soul for a flippy screen
Nov 16, 2015
129
112
DxO lists the A6300 as the best crop sensor in DR at 13.7. The 80D is "only" 13.2. I've argued before that a 1 stop difference on DxO's score amounts to little more than a change in post processing...assuming the sensor isn't bound by banding...and that real differences are at 2ev and greater. You can imagine what I personally think of an 0.5ev difference.

tl;dr - the 80D had good DR for a crop camera, as will the 90D. That won't stop some from complaining on the Internet however.
Did you forget to include Nikon in the comparison? DxO lists Nikon D7200 with a DR of 14.6 stops, which I think is as you said: a "change in post processing" since it's probably a Sony-made sensor.
 
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-pekr-

5D MK IV
CR Pro
TBH, there may be an incremental improvement or a massive improvement. We will be told by someone doing "tests" and then the various factions will flock to their positions on the issue without ever making so much as one image with the cameras.
Meanwhile endless images will be uploaded "proving" the failure or genius of the sensor and showing us yet another pic of their dog.
Why speculate, if there seems to be a (preliminary) reality check instead? Seems compared to 80D, 90D sensor is doing quite well, considering the higher megapixel count, but can't be easily compared to SONY's dual gain ISO technology. I am sorry for not having a dog photo for you yet - just give me cca half a year, so that I can see, if the M5 II is eventually coming.

1567489364773.png
 

Maximilian

The dark side - I've been there
CR Pro
Nov 7, 2013
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... My understanding of this is that they downsampled a larger 90D file down to 24MP and than compared with the original 80D file at 24MP.
Makes sense? :)
If that is the case, then naturally... 90D file’s are better downsampled. Correct me if I am wrong here.
Hi SecureGSM!

If you go back to the initial CR post and the quoted measurement data you'll see that the downsampling is done down to 8 MP and there the 90D sensor is almost equal when compared at native MP but better after downsampling.

IMO not bad.
 

SecureGSM

2 x 5D IV
Feb 26, 2017
2,376
1,245
Nuh, not bad at all. More compelling reasons for me to looks long and hard at M5 II product if and when that becomes available. I am happy with what I am seeing here. having a f 1.8 zoom attached I am nearly as good as with f2.8 zoom on a FF. Provided I typically would use an on camera flash as an infill, I can utilise a small and light flash option to improve ISO levels by a stop from experience. So. I need a light and versatile canon m level camera to carry around for social outings, traveling and an occasional shots around town.
 

Andreos

EOS M50
Feb 21, 2013
30
5
Why speculate, if there seems to be a (preliminary) reality check instead? Seems compared to 80D, 90D sensor is doing quite well, considering the higher megapixel count, but can't be easily compared to SONY's dual gain ISO technology. I am sorry for not having a dog photo for you yet - just give me cca half a year, so that I can see, if the M5 II is eventually coming.

View attachment 186314
Not a valid comparison and it says so right on the page you got the graph from!

"These raw values are not appropriate for comparing camera models because they are not adjusted for gain or area."

 

AlanF

Hands. Face. Space.
CR Pro
Aug 16, 2012
7,318
7,054
Hi Alan, did you miss the word “normalised”? My understanding of this is that they downsampled a larger 90D file down to 24MP and than compared with the original 80D file at 24MP.
Makes sense? :)
If that is the case, then naturally... 90D file’s are better downsampled. Correct me if I am wrong here.
In photonstophotos http://www.photonstophotos.net/Gene...Primer/Photographic_Dynamic_Range_Summary.htm the DR guru Bill Cliff defines photographic DR as the range you would see in an 8”x10” print held at arm’s length. His “normalisation” is for the circle of confusion for the sensor size and not the number of pixels - downsampling doesn’t come into it.
 
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Proscribo

EOS RP
Jan 21, 2015
262
135
Notice also that the samples that dpreview provides are CRAW files (and not uncompressed RAW) so probably if the measurements are correct the uncompressed raw should have even more dynamic range.
Well.. Canon raws are always compressed, the craw is a lossy compression. And depending the way the measurement is done lossy compressed file could actually seem to have more DR if the compression acts like a crude noise reduction. This obviously doesn't mean lossy is better, it just happens to score higher in a single metric when nothing else is taken into account.
 

dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,627
1,171
Did you forget to include Nikon in the comparison?
I didn't realize that Nikon wasn't checked. Must have been a left over setting from a previous search I performed. You are correct that the highest is the D7200 at 14.6.
 
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scyrene

EOS R6
Dec 4, 2013
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www.flickr.com
Even if it's the same as the 80D, considering the extra resolution I think it sounds good. It *should* put paid to the myth that increasing MP counts makes for worse high ISO performance, but I won't hold my breath.
 

Valvebounce

EOS R5
CR Pro
Apr 3, 2013
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Hi Cryhavoc.
No I think what it means is
“I could care less, but only a little bit less and I’d have to try really really hard, and do you know what, I can’t be bothered!” :oops: :oops: :ROFLMAO:

Cheers, Graham.

The correct way to say that is "I couldn't care less"
I could care less means you can care less so if you don't care about 24p then you should say "I couldn't care less about..."
 

AlanF

Hands. Face. Space.
CR Pro
Aug 16, 2012
7,318
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Even if it's the same as the 80D, considering the extra resolution I think it sounds good. It *should* put paid to the myth that increasing MP counts makes for worse high ISO performance, but I won't hold my breath.
I don't know why there is the myth. Just look at the published charts in photonstophotos.net - the DR for most modern cameras converge to similar values at higher iso values for a sensor of the same size. And that's because the images are all examined at the same print size. A crop sensor with smaller pixels has lower DR than FF because it is blown up to the same size image and magnified by 1.6x in width and height, which magnifies the noise and lowers the DR.
 

AlanF

Hands. Face. Space.
CR Pro
Aug 16, 2012
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Nuh, not bad at all. More compelling reasons for me to looks long and hard at M5 II product if and when that becomes available. I am happy with what I am seeing here. having a f 1.8 zoom attached I am nearly as good as with f2.8 zoom on a FF. Provided I typically would use an on camera flash as an infill, I can utilise a small and light flash option to improve ISO levels by a stop from experience. So. I need a light and versatile canon m level camera to carry around for social outings, traveling and an occasional shots around town.
In a similar vein, what I am looking for is a high density sensor so I can fit a 100-400mm to it and have similar reach to an 800mm on a 20 Mpx FF. A 32.5 Mpx crop or an 83 Mpx FF will do that, and that is as much as I can reasonably carry nowadays. I would like FF with crop facility so I can choose smaller RAW files rather than crop in post. But, at my age, you have to live in the present and photograph now rather than wait for an unknown future. The 90D specs fit the bill for me, not perfectly but good enough.