Is Mirrorless a Giant Con?

Bdbtoys

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I'm not so sure about that. Millions of people play slot machines and love it. But they are most definitely a con.
Way to take what I said out of context. I thought posting on a camera site, about cameras, and a post about DSLR's and Mirrorless... that 'something' referred to the 2 different camera types (or at the very least 2 similar pieces of technology).
 
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unfocused

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Way to take what I said out of context. I thought posting on a camera site, about cameras, and a post about DSLR's and Mirrorless... that 'something' referred to the 2 different camera types (or at the very least 2 similar pieces of technology).
Sorry if I offended you. But really, just in the context of cameras, simply because people are using a particular camera style and loving it, doesn't mean people have not been conned. The best cons are those that leave people convinced they are smarter, more talented or more clever than others and keeps them coming back for more. A really good con is one that leaves the mark primed for future cons. Sort of like getting people to switch their entire investment in DSLRs and EF glass to the R system and RF glass and pay a premium for the privilege of doing so.

I know many people get offended when anyone suggest it might be worthwhile to take a step back and look at the tradeoffs because once you spend thousands of dollars on new toys, a lot of confirmation bias gets factored in. We don't want to admit we've been conned but honestly, I tip my hat to Canon.

I started this thread with a quote from @GMCPhotographics, "...There are are rumours that Canon only introduced the RF mount to extract premium prices in a declining market to replace lost revenues from the declining market..."

I thought it was an interesting perspective and one that has more than a little truth to it. Clearly, even if that wasn't their primary motivating factor, they've been wildly successful at it anyway. It's certainly worked on me.

Now, I admit I kind of enjoyed offending some people. It was totally predictable. But, really, once you accept that you are being taken for a ride and knowing that Canon isn't going to give you much choice in the matter anyway, you might as well just enjoy it and appreciate their cleverness in conning so many people.
 
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neuroanatomist

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I started this thread with a quote from @GMCPhotographics, "...There are are rumours that Canon only introduced the RF mount to extract premium prices in a declining market to replace lost revenues from the declining market..."
It certainly may have been a strong motivation on Canon’s part. But it’s not without benefits for users. Computer ports improve (but there are adapters), Wi-Fi gets faster (but older, slower systems retain compatibility), etc.
 
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Bdbtoys

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Sorry if I offended you. But really, just in the context of cameras, simply because people are using a particular camera style and loving it, doesn't mean people have not been conned. The best cons are those that leave people convinced they are smarter, more talented or more clever than others and keeps them coming back for more. A really good con is one that leaves the mark primed for future cons. Sort of like getting people to switch their entire investment in DSLRs and EF glass to the R system and RF glass and pay a premium for the privilege of doing so.

I know many people get offended when anyone suggest it might be worthwhile to take a step back and look at the tradeoffs because once you spend thousands of dollars on new toys, a lot of confirmation bias gets factored in. We don't want to admit we've been conned but honestly, I tip my hat to Canon.

I started this thread with a quote from @GMCPhotographics, "...There are are rumours that Canon only introduced the RF mount to extract premium prices in a declining market to replace lost revenues from the declining market..."

I thought it was an interesting perspective and one that has more than a little truth to it. Clearly, even if that wasn't their primary motivating factor, they've been wildly successful at it anyway. It's certainly worked on me.

Now, I admit I kind of enjoyed offending some people. It was totally predictable. But, really, once you accept that you are being taken for a ride and knowing that Canon isn't going to give you much choice in the matter anyway, you might as well just enjoy it and appreciate their cleverness in conning so many people.

Offended, not really. But how can I take anything you say seriously if your first reply to me was to twist the context of what I said so much? But I'll give one more chance before I ditch this thread...

IMO... calling something a "con" is a pretty serious accusation. Around my area, we tend to look at the meaning more from the 'swindle/ripped off' definition.... and that is not the case as I see it.

Most companies are motivated by profit (no big secret). However, there is usually a bit of 'how do we get people to purchase the next big thing?'. One way is to make the next thing better, following trends, allowing easy upgrades, and making the old unobtainable. They did make it better, got into FF mirrorless, allowed easy upgrades, and they started discontinuing some of the old (non-popular/profitable?) EF glass. However if they did not follow the trends they would have lost market share to Sony w/o a good alternative as there are those looking for the next big thing... and to be honest, I really think mirrorless is it.

Having used a nice mirrorless, I won't go back to DSLR... period! In no way whatsoever do I feel conned. I knew the technology and the asking price and got exactly what I was expecting. Value is all about perception. If you want to feel justified that we are all getting conned... good for you. But I don't feel that way.
 
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unfocused

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It certainly may have been a strong motivation on Canon’s part. But it’s not without benefits for users. Computer ports improve (but there are adapters), Wi-Fi gets faster (but older, slower systems retain compatibility), etc.
I absolutely agree. I think the development of their mirrorless offerings sparked a lot of innovation at Canon. In fact, we both know that interviews of Canon executives at the time of the introduction of the R and RF lenses were filled with comments that showed how excited they were to try new things and be freed from some of the constraints of the EF system.
 

stevelee

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It certainly may have been a strong motivation on Canon’s part. But it’s not without benefits for users. Computer ports improve (but there are adapters), Wi-Fi gets faster (but older, slower systems retain compatibility), etc.
My iMac will soon be 7 years old. It still does great with Photoshop and FCP X and such, but Apple will no longer support it in the next OS version. Supposedly a new larger iMac with an M series processor will be coming out in a matter of months. It may not be as starved for ports as the other new models, but I am budgeting around $200 for cables, adaptors, dongles, and maybe more for some kind of hub.
 

neuroanatomist

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My iMac will soon be 7 years old. It still does great with Photoshop and FCP X and such, but Apple will no longer support it in the next OS version. Supposedly a new larger iMac with an M series processor will be coming out in a matter of months. It may not be as starved for ports as the other new models, but I am budgeting around $200 for cables, adaptors, dongles, and maybe more for some kind of hub.
I prefer the portability of a laptop, I haven’t had a Mac desktop since my PowerMac 6500. I have a Stone Pro dock that works well. It has my 5K:2K ultrawide Thunderbolt display, a Logitech webcam, GigE, and the magic keyboard and mouse connected. Those are wireless, of course, but keeping them plugged in means they automatically pair to whichever of my three MacBook Pros is connected (or my wife’s MBPro, or one of my kids’ MBAirs). The dock even has an SD slot on the side.

Speaking of dropping support, I miss Aperture.
 

stevelee

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I prefer the portability of a laptop, I haven’t had a Mac desktop since my PowerMac 6500. I have a Stone Pro dock that works well. It has my 5K:2K ultrawide Thunderbolt display, a Logitech webcam, GigE, and the magic keyboard and mouse connected. Those are wireless, of course, but keeping them plugged in means they automatically pair to whichever of my three MacBook Pros is connected (or my wife’s MBPro, or one of my kids’ MBAirs). The dock even has an SD slot on the side.

Speaking of dropping support, I miss Aperture.
My one laptop was a white iBook, the last model they made of that. It was handy when I lived in two houses and also used it at my office. I used my Mac Pro at my principal residence. The laptop has never been on a plane or train. It has a phone jack, so last time I used it was to send a fax. I travel with an iPad, and it does all I need or want when away from home, or just surfing a bit in the living room, as I am doing now. I wait until I am back home to deal with the Raw pictures I take during trips, so I don’t have any use for a laptop.

A friend has a new Mac mini with a 30” (or more) monitor. He says he runs Mac OS, Linux, and Windows 10 simultaneously in different windows. He suggested I get a mini instead of the iMac. We’ll see. Up until recently he was still doing some sort of arcane consulting, related to aerospace or something. He plays several woodwind instruments from different eras, and is learning to program in Swift for iOS devices.
 

koenkooi

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My one laptop was a white iBook, the last model they made of that. It was handy when I lived in two houses and also used it at my office. I used my Mac Pro at my principal residence. The laptop has never been on a plane or train. It has a phone jack, so last time I used it was to send a fax. I travel with an iPad, and it does all I need or want when away from home, or just surfing a bit in the living room, as I am doing now. I wait until I am back home to deal with the Raw pictures I take during trips, so I don’t have any use for a laptop.

A friend has a new Mac mini with a 30” (or more) monitor. He says he runs Mac OS, Linux, and Windows 10 simultaneously in different windows. He suggested I get a mini instead of the iMac. We’ll see. Up until recently he was still doing some sort of arcane consulting, related to aerospace or something. He plays several woodwind instruments from different eras, and is learning to program in Swift for iOS devices.
FWIW, the "LG ultrafine 5K" monitor has the exact same panel as the 27" 5k iMac. I have been thinking about the upgrade path from my 2015 5k iMac and the Mini + monitor is a big contender. The options currently available to me on the market:
  1. New M1 iMac
  2. M1 Mini + LG 5k
  3. LG 5k + current work laptop, a 2020 MBP
Since both my iMac and laptop have 32G of RAM, the M1 options aren't that attractive. I hope that when the time comes that the portion of savings allocated to preplacing have grown big enough, there's an option available that is fast and large enough for Lightroom :)
I also fear that the performance of the MBP tanks with a large screen attached, it is currently twice as fast with DPP4 TIFF conversions. The usual first world problems :)
 

Antono Refa

EOS R
Mar 26, 2014
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I absolutely agree. I think the development of their mirrorless offerings sparked a lot of innovation at Canon. In fact, we both know that interviews of Canon executives at the time of the introduction of the R and RF lenses were filled with comments that showed how excited they were to try new things and be freed from some of the constraints of the EF system.
Like zooms that must be corrected on the wide side, e.g. RF 24-240mm and RF 14-35mm? I'd like to see a review comparing those to similar EF lenses, when both are corrected, e.g. RF 14-35mm f/4 post processed to EF 16-35mm f/4 post processed.
 
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Nemorino

EOS R5
Aug 29, 2020
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To sum up. Mirrorless is a giant pro rather than a giant con.
I want to add some pros:
The AF of third party lenses works without problems. I use the Sigma 50mm 1.4 and the focus is always spot on!

You can use a lot of vintage lenses with special adapters

I shoot macros with the full manual Laowa 60mm. This lens is unusable with a OVF if stopped down.
The exposure simulation and the magnification in the EVF of the R series is a dream. The focus peaking is also a great help.

Without a mirror it is possible to do focus bracketing handheld even with the Laowa 60mm. With AF macro lenses it is of cause easier. You don't get perfect result like using a tripod but sometimes it is the only possibility.

I am very, very happy with my Eos R5 :love:
 

stevelee

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Jul 6, 2017
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Since both my iMac and laptop have 32G of RAM, the M1 options aren't that attractive.
When I got my iMac in 2014, it was to replace my 2006 Mac Pro. At the time, separate monitors of that quality cost as much or more by themselves as did the 5K iMac.

I future-proofed my purchase by getting 32GB of RAM and a 1 TB SSD and a 4GHz 4-core i7. That was good in that I am still not at all dissatisfied with its performance. The downside is that it will take a rather nice machine to replace it. Nothing out at the moment seems to make sense for me. There is the school of thought that the M1 does not need as much memory as Intel chips, but I don’t plan to downgrade. So M1 machines are out, unless I replace my iPad with one.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
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Jul 21, 2010
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I also fear that the performance of the MBP tanks with a large screen attached, it is currently twice as fast with DPP4 TIFF conversions.
I have not noticed a performance hit with my MBPs running on the internal display vs. connected to an external display, when batch converting RAWs using DxO PhotoLab (their newest NR algorithm is very processor-intensive).

My personal MBP is a 2019 16” Core i9 with 16 GB RAM (actually one of my work MBPs is identical except it’s silver instead of space gray). My display is 5K:2K, and although it has fewer total pixels than a full 5K (I wanted the 21:9 ultrawide, and also a lower overall height so I can see more of the forest out of my home office windows), the GPU still renders an 8K image before downsampling it for the display. One caveat worth noting is that with the external display connected I run in clamshell mode.
 

Jethro

EOS R
CR Pro
Jul 14, 2018
562
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When I got my iMac in 2014, it was to replace my 2006 Mac Pro. At the time, separate monitors of that quality cost as much or more by themselves as did the 5K iMac.

I future-proofed my purchase by getting 32GB of RAM and a 1 TB SSD and a 4GHz 4-core i7. That was good in that I am still not at all dissatisfied with its performance. The downside is that it will take a rather nice machine to replace it. Nothing out at the moment seems to make sense for me. There is the school of thought that the M1 does not need as much memory as Intel chips, but I don’t plan to downgrade. So M1 machines are out, unless I replace my iPad with one.
I'm in a similar situation to you except I got a late 2015 27" iMac with upgraded RAM - so I think mine will still be good for the new OS about to come out. The 5k screen was a big selling point for me. I'm waiting for the M1-based larger screen iMac - which is looking like coming out next year - to see how much of an upgrade it is in practice. But I'm very happy at the moment with the 2015 version.
 

Del Paso

M3 Singlestroke
Aug 9, 2018
1,275
1,367
I want to add some pros:
The AF of third party lenses works without problems. I use the Sigma 50mm 1.4 and the focus is always spot on!

You can use a lot of vintage lenses with special adapters

I shoot macros with the full manual Laowa 60mm. This lens is unusable with a OVF if stopped down.
The exposure simulation and the magnification in the EVF of the R series is a dream. The focus peaking is also a great help.

Without a mirror it is possible to do focus bracketing handheld even with the Laowa 60mm. With AF macro lenses it is of cause easier. You don't get perfect result like using a tripod but sometimes it is the only possibility.

I am very, very happy with my Eos R5 :love:
Hi Nemorino!
Could you please tell me (us) which settings you use for hand-held focus-bracketing when doing macro with manual lenses?
Thanks!
 

Nemorino

EOS R5
Aug 29, 2020
237
433
I use 1/400s or faster and Iso 400 or 800. Aperture is set to f/2.8 or f/4.
If the light is good I first lower the Iso, second increase shutter speed.

An example I posted in the butterfly thread:
vanessa-atalanta-stack-jpg.199412


https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/threads/butterflies-moths-and-assorted-insects.31073/post-904361
 
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