Is September 14 the day we finally get the official Canon EOS R3 announcement?

Czardoom

EOS RP
Jan 27, 2020
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Lets take this really slow. Sony had the only mirrorless FF option available in the market for years. Mirrorless market share grew for years. That means more people started using sony cameras right? If more people started using sony mirrorless cameras, do you think they still used old DSLRs? What happens to the market share when customers use company A's products more than Company B's? Does company A's market share grow or Company B's? I'm not sure if I am explaining this slow enough for you guys but trying to get to the point that sony has been making gains for years when canon and nikon had no mirrorless offering. They lost a crap load of customers. Long time canon users switched to sony in mass.
We do not need to take this slow. We are not stupid. Insinuating that we are is not going to win you any arguments.

We understand that while Sony was the only one offering mirrorless FF, this means that some Canon and Nikon users started to buy Sony. We understand that while Sony continued to offer mirrorless FF and Nikon and Canon still had not entered this market, Sony continued making gains.

This is all fairly clear and had you stopped there, I don't think any one would have argued.

But you didn't. Assuming "a crap load" is a large number, well, you have presented no evidence and sales numbers from various sources seem to indicate that, no, Canon never did lose "a crap load" of customers. (P.S. Buying a Sony does not mean that Canon users did not keep their Canons or did not buy a new Canon camera as well as their Sony).

And, again, saying that long time Canon users switched to Sony "in mass" is not only incorrect linguistically, but also not true based on sales numbers. The phrase, by the way, is "en masse."

The question I am puzzled by is, why do people care if Sony or Canon sells more cameras? And why do people continually use these over-exaggerations when discussing Sony sales and their impact on reducing Canon sales? Even if every single wedding photogapher or every single wildlife photographer switched to Sony, why do you care?
 
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Czardoom

EOS RP
Jan 27, 2020
502
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Those were 9 photographers off the top of my head bud. And I was an enthusiast once. I rarely bought a camera and when I did I had to save up considerably, compared to today, I bought 2 sony FX3's, 2 sony A7SIIIs, and an R5 just in the past year or so, and then an R3 soon! You are the foolish one bro. I am the one with common sense :)
You could have listed 90 photographers and it still would not mean anything staistically. You could have listed 900 and it still may not mean anyhting statistically. The world is a very big place. Certainly you understand that you can take all the wedding photographers in one country and it still may not mean much compared to the global market. I think that is the point people are making when you base your argument on a very small, unscientifically chosen sample size.
 

unfocused

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...I bought 2 sony FX3's, 2 sony A7SIIIs, and an R5 just in the past year or so, and then an R3 soon! You are the foolish one bro. I am the one with common sense.
Somehow I don't think buying five cameras in one year and planning to buy another one as soon as it comes out, does much for your argument about who is the foolish one.
 
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unfocused

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Jul 20, 2010
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The question I am puzzled by is, why do people care if Sony or Canon sells more cameras? And why do people continually use these over-exaggerations when discussing Sony sales and their impact on reducing Canon sales? Even if every single wedding photogapher or every single wildlife photographer switched to Sony, why do you care?
Other than rooting for your "team" it doesn't make any sense. People always act like it is some sort of race where one company is trying to drive another company out of business, But that isn't the way business works. Canon and Sony care far more about profits and return on investment. Market share is important only in that context. As a consumer, I only care if the brand I have purchased is sufficiently profitable to allow them to invest in R&D and bring new products to market. Clearly, both companies can do that, so it doesn't impact me.
 

rick1

EOS M6 Mark II
Sep 8, 2016
65
36
You could have listed 90 photographers and it still would not mean anything staistically. You could have listed 900 and it still may not mean anyhting statistically. The world is a very big place. Certainly you understand that you can take all the wedding photographers in one country and it still may not mean much compared to the global market. I think that is the point people are making when you base your argument on a very small, unscientifically chosen sample size.
He asked me to list a few photographers who have been doing this for 7+ years so I did, not sure what you are saying
 

rick1

EOS M6 Mark II
Sep 8, 2016
65
36
Somehow I don't think buying five cameras in one year and planning to buy another one as soon as it comes out, does much for your argument about who is the foolish one.
Just reinforcing the point that enthusiasts don't have the money to spend like professionals do. I never had the money to buy a new camera as an enthusiast.
 

rick1

EOS M6 Mark II
Sep 8, 2016
65
36
We do not need to take this slow. We are not stupid. Insinuating that we are is not going to win you any arguments.

We understand that while Sony was the only one offering mirrorless FF, this means that some Canon and Nikon users started to buy Sony. We understand that while Sony continued to offer mirrorless FF and Nikon and Canon still had not entered this market, Sony continued making gains.

This is all fairly clear and had you stopped there, I don't think any one would have argued.

But you didn't. Assuming "a crap load" is a large number, well, you have presented no evidence and sales numbers from various sources seem to indicate that, no, Canon never did lose "a crap load" of customers. (P.S. Buying a Sony does not mean that Canon users did not keep their Canons or did not buy a new Canon camera as well as their Sony).

And, again, saying that long time Canon users switched to Sony "in mass" is not only incorrect linguistically, but also not true based on sales numbers. The phrase, by the way, is "en masse."

The question I am puzzled by is, why do people care if Sony or Canon sells more cameras? And why do people continually use these over-exaggerations when discussing Sony sales and their impact on reducing Canon sales? Even if every single wedding photogapher or every single wildlife photographer switched to Sony, why do you care?
I don't really care if I used terminology that you don't approve of. Bottom line is that sony stole a significant amount of DSLR users from canon and nikon (one just commented a few comments ago!). And then the R5 brought him back to canon (just like I was saying). Anyone that denies this is living under a rock or not in touch with the professional community.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
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Jul 21, 2010
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Those were 9 photographers off the top of my head bud. And I was an enthusiast once. I rarely bought a camera and when I did I had to save up considerably, compared to today, I bought 2 sony FX3's, 2 sony A7SIIIs, and an R5 just in the past year or so, and then an R3 soon! You are the foolish one bro. I am the one with common sense :)
Which was I supposed to be more impressed by, the fact that you claim to know at least 9 successful photographers in your area who have been working longer than 7 years, or that fact that you claim to have spent close to $20K on camera gear in a year? LOL. The answer is neither. I might have been (slightly) impressed if you had just admitted that you overstepped with your claims, but obviously that's beyond you.

It seems you have exhausted your limited intellectual capacity in this discussion, and are now re- re- re- re-framing it in terms of how much money you spend. I suggest you stop before you start posting pictures of your penis resting on a ruler. That might cause @unfocused to spit out his popcorn and make a mess, so you should probably just quit now that you're irredeemably foundering in this thread.
 
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unfocused

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Just reinforcing the point that enthusiasts don't have the money to spend like professionals do. I never had the money to buy a new camera as an enthusiast.
Wrong.

Are you a full time wedding photographer or are you a software engineer? Because you said you were a software engineer which makes me think you are supplementing your photo business with your software engineering. Which would also make you atypical of most wedding photographers and most professional photographers of any kind.

It's pretty well documented that all the major camera manufacturers are pursuing the enthusiast market over the professional market. There is a simple economic reason for that. Professionals are limited by the return on investment when they buy a piece of equipment. And, professionals have to pay the rent, buy the groceries, send their kids to college, etc. etc., on their earnings before they can consider buying new equipment. Enthusiasts are limited only by their discretionary income. They can buy a piece of equipment because they want it, not because they need it to turn a profit.
 
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rick1

EOS M6 Mark II
Sep 8, 2016
65
36
Which was I supposed to be more impressed by, the fact that you claim to know at least 9 successful photographers in your area who have been working longer than 7 years, or that fact that you claim to have spent close to $20K on camera gear in a year? LOL. The answer is neither. I might have been (slightly) impressed if you had just admitted that you overstepped with your claims, but obviously that's beyond you.

It seems you have exhausted your limited intellectual capacity in this discussion, and are now re- re- re- re-framing it in terms of how much money you spend. I suggest you stop before you start posting pictures of your penis resting on a ruler. That might cause @unfocused to spit out his popcorn and make a mess, so you should probably just quit now that you're irredeemably foundering in this thread.
This is the last time I am going to comment on this thread. You'll keep trolling people but you are really just talking out of your a$$. You have no clue about the professional community. Go take some more pictures of your dog with your 1DX lol
 

stevelee

FT-QL
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Jul 6, 2017
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I don’t know any photographers who use Sony cameras. I know of only one other photographer who shoots Canon. He is the friend to whom I gave my S95 and S120. All of the other photographers have Nikon DSLRs, both amateur and pro.

So common sense tells us that we can conclude market share from that.
 
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neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
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Jul 21, 2010
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This is the last time I am going to comment on this thread.
That’s a good choice. Your repeated, floundering attempts to make your opinion appear correct through multiple goalpost moves and trite repetition, in the face of actual data to the contrary, had become pathetic. Your descent into puerile insults was unnecessary, but not unexpected.

You really should have quit while you were behind and spared yourself the embarrassment, as I suggested about 50 posts back in this thread. But as I predicted a couple of posts later, it has been mildly amusing to watch you flail about.
 
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sanj

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Jan 22, 2012
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Just reinforcing the point that enthusiasts don't have the money to spend like professionals do. I never had the money to buy a new camera as an enthusiast.
No no. Enthusiasts spend much more because they earn much more than most professional photographers do. While most photographers know how to use their 'inferior gear better. My thinking.
 
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tangerine_sedge

I'm New Here
May 27, 2021
10
21
No no. Enthusiasts spend much more because they earn much more than most professional photographers do. While most photographers know how to use their 'inferior gear better. My thinking.
That's true, I considered a career in photography and just couldn't make the numbers work. Kudos to any Pro's here, but not for me!

I think this thread has just been a continuation of the best gear arguments that have been running since forever. People focus on stats and buy into a brand and then feel like they have to convert people to their choice to help justify their own decisions. I've been around long enough to know that the 'best' changes from release to release, and actually the most important part of the image creation process is the photographers brain.
 
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Hector1970

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Mar 22, 2012
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Other than rooting for your "team" it doesn't make any sense. People always act like it is some sort of race where one company is trying to drive another company out of business, But that isn't the way business works. Canon and Sony care far more about profits and return on investment. Market share is important only in that context. As a consumer, I only care if the brand I have purchased is sufficiently profitable to allow them to invest in R&D and bring new products to market. Clearly, both companies can do that, so it doesn't impact me.
Canon and Sony are two very smart companies. They are very focussed on profitability and margins and their return on investment. Market share is important to both of them. Scale helps but can impact margins if you are selling alot of low margin products (which Canon probably have more of than Sony). For both companies the camera sector is important but not as important as it once was. When you see what's happening to Nikon who still make fine cameras you wonder are they considering their long term future in the sector. I'd have moderate concerns for both Canon and Sony in this regards. If the returns aren't there both companies may not invest in R&D and technological improvements will taper off. Most of us here have no access to actual sales figures to completely judge things in terms of sales Canon V Sony. Our best evidence is annecdotal evidence (which isn't very reliable) . I'd be the serious amateur type with alot friends with a similar level of interest. My annecdotal experience would be a large decrease in Nikon users (used to be almost 50:50 Canon/Nikon before Sony turned up), mainly to Sony, a smaller drift of Canon users to Sony, the odd Fuji user exists but most other brands have disappeared. This probably doesn't reflect the whole worldwide market.
Typically in the past if you'd have asked me the best DSLR camera I'd have instantly said Canon 1 series.
Today I'd say its the Sony A1 and it will be a while before Canon better it as the rumours on the R1 haven't even start. Does that matter - I don't know.
If I was starting out today would I be influenced by the brands top of the range camera?- I probably would
If you are influenced by Youtube/Instagram there seem to be alot of Sony users. I don't know if Sony target them with free gear.
Whereas before you'd be influenced by camera magazines I'd say alot of younger people are influenced by what they see online.
 
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koenkooi

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Feb 25, 2015
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[..]Most of us here have no access to actual sales figures to completely judge things in terms of sales Canon V Sony.[..]
Every year when Sony does their financial report, they move the camera section to a different division. So it's impossible to infer how well it does year over year. The organizational musical chairs they are doing makes me think it is as profitable as their Vaio division was.

If you are influenced by Youtube/Instagram there seem to be alot of Sony users. I don't know if Sony target them with free gear.
Whereas before you'd be influenced by camera magazines I'd say alot of younger people are influenced by what they see online.
Manny Ortiz said on his channel that Sony didn't give him free gear or money, but that they facilitated getting big jobs, like the work he did for Walmart. I strongly suspect that other influencer get both money and gear, but I haven't seen any one of them going on record about that, beyond generic "We all know how this works" statements.
Another persistent rumour is that Sony gives resellers a better deal, which is likely why stores put Sony front and center.
 
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Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
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Just reinforcing the point that enthusiasts don't have the money to spend like professionals do. I never had the money to buy a new camera as an enthusiast.
Me neither, but as the kids left the nest and as my "needs" diminished, suddenly my modest pension that seemed like it would be so meagre when I was still working turned out to be quite adequate. So instead of buying the usual "necessities" of life I opted for feeding my addiction. And I must add my wife has no issue with this addiction, probably recognizing that there are much worse ones! ;)

Jack
 
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Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
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That’s a good choice. Your repeated, floundering attempts to make your opinion appear correct through multiple goalpost moves and trite repetition, in the face of actual data to the contrary, had become pathetic. Your descent into puerile insults was unnecessary, but not unexpected.

You really should have quit while you were behind and spared yourself the embarrassment, as I suggested about 50 posts back in this thread. But as I predicted a couple of posts later, it has been mildly amusing to watch you flail about.
CR for the humour! I freely admit I probably shouldn't laugh.

Jack
 
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JohnC

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Sep 22, 2019
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Just reinforcing the point that enthusiasts don't have the money to spend like professionals do. I never had the money to buy a new camera as an enthusiast.
In the photography industry I suspect that more often than not they have more than the pros.
 
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HotPixels

EOS M50
Mar 6, 2014
46
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Every year when Sony does their financial report, they move the camera section to a different division. So it's impossible to infer how well it does year over year. The organizational musical chairs they are doing makes me think it is as profitable as their Vaio division was.


Manny Ortiz said on his channel that Sony didn't give him free gear or money, but that they facilitated getting big jobs, like the work he did for Walmart. I strongly suspect that other influencer get both money and gear, but I haven't seen any one of them going on record about that, beyond generic "We all know how this works" statements.
Another persistent rumour is that Sony gives resellers a better deal, which is likely why stores put Sony front and center.
Interesting point about how difficult it is to really discern the performance of the Sony camera division.

Also interesting what Manny Ortiz said. No doubt if Sony helps him get big jobs like Walmart, then that is far better and bigger compensation than free gear. There are many ways that a YouTuber can benefit from praising/recommending Sony.

Sony can promote you on their website, Alpha Universe, citing your video and linking to it, which will greatly accelerate your views and how much people know about you. For YouTube, views/follows/likes are like ratings for TV shows. The higher you go the more money you make. Also Sony fans seems to have a greater presence in social media and be more active. This may in part be fueled by Sony promotion. But either way, if you want to get more popular on YouTube, one way is to review and praise Sony.

I know a few YTers have also remarked about how the Sony PR people just do a great job reaching out and maintaining the relationships. One time iJustine mentioned about the Sony schwag she received and was positively giddy about it. Now that's minor in terms of money, but in some cases that can help make an impression.

And then of course, if Sony can help some land big jobs, well, that is quite the compensation.

As for retailers, no doubt that it's common to pay for product placement. A few years back at a conference where B&H was an exhibitor, one of the sales people mentioned that, at least at the time, they were able to buy Sony gear at half price. So all of the sales people used Sony. Now the sales people at B&H are great, and I would say definitely try their best to be impartial and offer great advice, but if you are owning and using the gear that definitely helps you recommend it.

So there are all sorts of levers to be pulled, and Sony has the cash to do so. They are very aggressive with their marketing.