Is the new Canon full frame mirrorless called the EOS R?

[melgross]

It seems to me that if your main product lines are seeing falling sales, and therefore, profits, because that R&D, marketing and start-up costs remain about the same whether you’re selling 50,000 units of a model a year, or 500,000, that you would be very happy to canabilize those sales in favor of product lines that are increasing in sales, or have the potential to increase in sales.

Too many companies are so afraid of the unknown that they would rather do nothing until they sink beneath the waves than risk doing something to decrease their current product sales.

When Steve Jobs was asked if he was afraid that the newly introduced iPhone would canabilize the record iPod sales Apple was having, his response was:

I’d rather we canabilize our sales than another company do it. That was paraphrased, which is why I didn’t put into quotes. But you get the idea.

 

[psolberg]

Yeah, I somehow read that wrong. Still, 1mm means little. Bokeh is complex. I don’t think flange difference is going to make a difference. Again, Leica has been doing this for 100 years. Usually their bokeh is very good, but not always.

there are plenty of samples of the 50mm f1.0 where the bokeh is negatively affected by intrusions of the mirror box but you can also see the same problem on f/1.2 lenses to a lesser extent. It makes for ugly artifacts in particular point light sources that creates the "spheres". Similar to "cat's eye", but worse....much, much, worse because the spheres are clipped in unnatural ways with weird angles and geometric intrusions.
https://fstoppers.com/gear/ultimate-lens-bokeh-canon-50mm-f10-5059
yuck.

a broad mount that is closer to the sensor will not have these problems, and I suspect the 58mm f/0.95 will have much less instances of box intrusion. Cat's eye is inevitable however, but that is not as distracting. Nikon engineers also said they picked the dimensions and flange to make designs easier, more telecentric, and/or that require less light bending or arriving at sharper angles on the sensor edges. Some of this may be more evident once there are more high end lenses on the Z mount, as I doubt you'll notice much different on the rather conservative 1.8 primes.

Also in the same interview, they indicated there may be faster glass coming, so maybe that patent for the 52mm f/0.9 is one of those lenses in the roadmap that Nikon didn't write anything on and just left a slot.

 

[Mikehit]

As for heat dissipation, I doubt that was the issue- Canon’s either been lazy and/or has shown no interest in implementing high specced video in their cameras for quite some time.

Maybe because of the heat issue...? Do you always ignore the obvious, preferring instead theories of conspiracy and deceit?
Have you seen the cooling system on the Cxxx series? That is how it is done on proper video cameras.

I think the real success behind Sony is not the sensor but the processor that allows it all to happen and can do so more efficiently which means less heat and they can put in 4k more easily - I am not saying they have it sussed because there are still reports about overheating albeit not as commonly as before.

 

[psolberg]

It seems to me that if your main product lines are seeing falling sales, and therefore, profits, because that R&D, marketing and start-up costs remain about the same whether you’re selling 50,000 units of a model a year, or 500,000, that you would be very happy to canabilize those sales in favor of product lines that are increasing in sales, or have the potential to increase in sales.

Too many companies are so afraid of the unknown that they would rather do nothing until they sink beneath the waves than risk doing something to decrease their current product sales.

When Steve Jobs was asked if he was afraid that the newly introduced iPhone would canabilize the record iPod sales Apple was having, his response was:

I’d rather we canabilize our sales than another company do it. That was paraphrased, which is why I didn’t put into quotes. But you get the idea.

yeah. hubris has a lot to do with decisions here. Canon and Nikon to some extent are still dreaming in DSLR days. Sony found a foothold and any good dominant player would never allow another to dictate the direction of a market. Sony is now calling the shots and they are THE frame of reference for what amounts to the smartphone equivalent of our industry, while Nikon and Canon are like blackberry still boasting about their marketshare in keyboard phones too afraid to kill that as it would accelerate the migration away from markets they control into markets where there is another rival with a lead XD.

say what you will about sony, but they are playing by the apple playbook here and are putting Nikon and Canon in a position unthinkable even just a few years ago. I hope we have a 3 way race in the end, but I think sony is not done doing damage to the status quo.

 

[Mikehit]

yeah. hubris has a lot to do with decisions here. Canon and Nikon to some extent are still dreaming in DSLR days.

I see. That is why Canon makes the best selling mirrorless camera?

 

[psolberg]

I see. That is why Canon makes the best selling mirrorless camera?

and Samsung sells more cameras in phones overall. But we're talking full frame. Where is canon mirrorless full frame? hence the hubris. ok so you beat sony at the market sony abandoned. great job! You know who everybody talks about, sony. why? because they are perceived as the leader in FF, and that's not wrong.

 

[Loswr]

say what you will about sony, but they are playing by the apple playbook here and are putting Nikon and Canon in a position unthinkable even just a few years ago. I hope we have a 3 way race in the end, but I think sony is not done doing damage to the status quo.

Yeah, a few years ago Sony had ~13% of the ILC market share. Today, they have...wait for it...~13% of the ILC market share. Cleary, Sony is doing the unthinkable and seriously damaging the status quo.

Maybe if I send you a dollar via PayPal, you can use it to go buy a clue.

 

[psolberg]

Yeah, a few years ago Sony had ~13% of the ILC market share. Today, they have...wait for it...~13% of the ILC market share. Cleary, Sony is doing the unthinkable and seriously damaging the status quo.

Maybe if I send you a dollar via PayPal, you can use it to go buy a clue.

so what are your thoughs on the new mount rumors? or should I send you two dollars to buy a nice plate of crow to eat?

 

[Mikehit]

and Samsung sells more cameras in phones overall. But we're talking full frame. Where is canon mirrorless full frame? hence the hubris. ok so you beat sony at the market sony abandoned. great job! You know who everybody talks about, sony. why? because they are perceived as the leader in FF, and that's not wrong.

You said that Canon were living in the past with DSLR, and conveniently ignore they have the best selling mirrorless on the market. But it seems your definition of DSLR stops with FF cameras which enables you to conveniently ignore all the research and development they are doing in the mirrorless field and will bring to their FF camera..

Are you really that desperate to make a point?

 

[Ozarker]

There will be jumping to Sony if this camera doesn't deliver... for me at least. I've already sold two of my three canon bodies and most of my lenses. I'm ready to go, but would prefer to stay if they deliver a good camera that works for me for both photo and video work.

But here's the point, I think: Nobody cares. Choose whatever you prefer. Nobody cares. All the foot stomping and breath holding until blue changes nothing.

 

[Loswr]

so what are your thoughs on the new mount rumors? or should I send you two dollars to buy a nice plate of crow to eat?

So you treat rumors as facts, but ignore actual facts. I rescind my offer of sending a dollar, it would clearly be a waste of money.

 

[psolberg]

You said that Canon were living in the past with DSLR, and conveniently ignore they have the best selling mirrorless on the market. But it seems your definition of DSLR stops with FF cameras which enables you to conveniently ignore all the research and development they are doing in the mirrorless field and will bring to their FF camera..

Are you really that desperate to make a point?

I'm speaking of full frame mirrorless which IMO canon has not release to avoid cannibalizing FF sales such as 5D and 1DX. What is wrong with that? You can't take every ILC sale and equate it with each other as they are the same and pretend sony is no player. Unless you're blind to facts or neuro lol

 

[scyrene]

The 'you have to make it smaller', 'I want to adapt lenses', etc. simply must be served.

Only if the potential customer base warrants the expense of putting out the product. I tend to agree they will do this in some form, but 'there seems to be a lot of people shouting about it online' isn't a compelling business model (they may or may not represent a genuinely large enough customer base). Adapting older lenses in particular is surely a tiny niche - it's good that can be done, but whether it's enough of a market to target specifically (rather than incidental) is another matter (and they'd much rather we bought new lenses - there's no profit to Canon in people buying old FD ones). I imagine your counterargument could be 'well there must be a market if Nikon and Sony have gone there', and it may be so - but Sony chose FF mirrorless to set themselves apart and carve out a niche; whether there's room in the long run for all three brands in the sector now Nikon has gone there (small body FF + lenses), we'll see (though I don't doubt Canon would feel they could crush the competition if they wanted).

 

[psolberg]

So you treat rumors as facts, but ignore actual facts. I rescind my offer of sending a dollar, it would clearly be a waste of money.

I treat rumors as rumors but IF canon does release a new mount, I'll buy you lunch bud. Crow for you on me

 

[scyrene]

Ahh, but things have “changed in the meantime,” as Canon execs have admitted they are now willing to risk cannibalizing DSLR sales to go after MILC money (then they released the M50 with crippled 4K, but 4K nonetheless, so they could market it as such.)

Maybe you’re well off, so you can’t understand that some people will always have to choose between a $800-1000 phone that takes okay pictures and video, or a $1800-2000 camera. I’m lucky in this regard, but economics plays a role for many in these purchasing decisions.

Price is the most important determining feature in what people buy. If people can't afford e.g. a $2k camera and giving up the other features baked into DSLRs and MILCs (much larger sensor, interchangeable lenses with options from fisheye to macro to supertelephoto, professional flashguns, and all the rest) and find a phone does what they want, good for them - they are sensible to choose the cheaper option. But it doesn't mean your earlier points 'a phone can do X so a camera should too' (which ignore the reality of implementing certain things with a larger sensor) and (by implication) 'adding X (e.g. 120fps video) will make them competitive against phones' stand up to scrutiny. If we're talking about people specifically choosing a high end camera (which includes all FF options), then the phone is essentially irrelevant.

As for heat dissipation, I doubt that was the issue- Canon’s either been lazy and/or has shown no interest in implementing high specced video in their cameras for quite some time.

That's an assertion based entirely on your opinion and dislike of Canon as a company. You're entitled to it - but let's not treat it as some sort of special insight or evidence that what you say is true.

Incidentally, you use the term 'cannibalising' which has become popular on here recently. Let's boil it down - Canon wants to sell as many cameras as possible, as profitably as possible, and they seem to have succeeded in that for many years. It upsets people that their pet features aren't always included - too bad. It doesn't mean their corporate strategy is wrong - it's clearly working! (And we don't see any seismic shift in sales despite what people keep claiming will happen).

 

[Mikehit]

I'm speaking of full frame mirrorless which IMO canon has not release to avoid cannibalizing FF sales such as 5D and 1DX. What is wrong with that? You can't take every ILC sale and equate it with each other as they are the same and pretend sony is no player. Unless you're blind to facts or neuro lol

Your point was not about FF, but about Canons seeming intransigence to mirrorless. I pointed out the fallacy in that.
Now if you want to ignore very powerful evidence that Canon are in fact investing in mirrorless, and have been doing so for the last 5 years, then go ahead.
Why is FF the be all and end all of photography for some people?

 

[Loswr]

I treat rumors as rumors but IF canon does release a new mount, I'll buy you lunch bud. Crow for you on me

Sure, sure...right after you point out where I stated that Canon wouldn't release a new mount for their FF MILC.

Saved you some coin. You're welcome.

 

[scyrene]

You can't take every ILC sale and equate it with each other

Erm, why not? It's the same money going to the same company, why should it matter whether they're mirrorless or not? A sale is a sale.

 

[psolberg]

Your point was not about FF, but about Canons seeming intransigence to mirrorless. I pointed out the fallacy in that.
Now if you want to ignore very powerful evidence that Canon are in fact investing in mirrorless, and have been doing so for the last 5 years, then go ahead.
Why is FF the be all and end all of photography for some people?

no, my point was about canon riding its position as the DSLR leader and thinking they could let sony's FF mirrorless go unanswered for this long, but OK, I'll accept I could have made that clearer. Regardless, the fact canon are (rumored) to be answering only proves my point. Granted, I did not clarify this was bout FF, but it is implicit, for sony never saw much success in APS-C and they are the sweetheart of the internet in FF.

As for your later point about why are people obsessed about FF? it doesn't matter. Clearly the buzz is that. you can either accept it or not, but it doesn't change the fact the buzz is full frame, sony's A cameras and no matter what canon does, it is being compared and will be compared with sony. All you have to do is hang around youtube. FF mirrorless IS the hotness and sony is the sweethear/leader/king of it all. I don't particularly care for sony, but I'm not going to deny their status at this point.

 

[psolberg]

Sure, sure...right after you point out where I stated that Canon wouldn't release a new mount for their FF MILC.

Saved you some coin. You're welcome.

you said that you thought there was a higher chance they wouldn't release a new mount and there was a higher chance they'd stick with EF, and I simply point out that the rumors was that they would release a new mount.

I don't have a horse in the race for I've always discussed this canon "rumored" ER or whatever mount in that context, but IF they do release it, well, lunch is served bud. enjoy