New Nikon D800s... Why?

[ahsanford]

Just saw this link going around the rumor sites:
http://www.thephoblographer.com/2014/05/21/nikon-800s-reported-replace-d800-d800e-june/

And I had a question. Why does Canon employ a longer lifecycle on the more flagship bodies like the 1D, 5D, 7D, etc. (in fairness, usually with larger functional upgrades when they do rev those designs) when Nikon seems to put out somewhat watered down upgrades on a more regular basis?

I've been reviewing Northlight's nice release timeline (http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/rumours.html#nikon_timeline) and it looks like other than the D300S line, Nikon's been releasing the more premium bodies at a pretty steady 2-3 year clip while Canon guys are on a 3-5 year cycle.

I'm not calling one company's approach better than the other -- I was just curious. Why rev the D800 at this point in time? Is it deemed in desperate need of an upgrade compared to the 5D3 right now? A big AF upgrade would be great for Nikon users, but why not wait until the next super-duper FF sensor rolls out and make a bigger splash then?

- A

 

[Loswr]

Why rev the D800 at this point in time? Is it deemed in desperate need of an upgrade compared to the 5D3 right now?

The 5DIII is selling better. Nikon is projecting much bigger 2014 losses than Canon. "Desparate" is probably a reasonable characterization...

 

[jeffa4444]

Canon is not projecting a loss in 2014.

 

[hajiaru]

canon Sensors are behind the Sonys

 

[Loswr]

Canon is not projecting a loss in 2014.

For cameras they are. 1Q14 had a 6.7% drop in revenue from camera sales. Projections for FY2014 are -1% / -20% for ILC / compact unit sales, respectively, and an 8.2% drop in revenue from camera sales.

Projected gains in their office and industrial divisions more than offset the projected losses from camera sales, so a modest overall company gain is projected for FY2014.

Full details here: http://www.canon.com/ir/conference/pdf/conf2014q1e.pdf

Nikon is projecting a 6% loss in ILC sales, compared to Canon forecasted 1% drop.

 

[Orangutan]

canon Sensors are behind the Sonys

And...????

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

Some buyers want the latest and greatest, even though there is little difference. The cost to produce a major upgrade is high, while putting a new badge on a camera and adding a few software features, as well as upgrading the processer is a cheap fix, and can generate a lot of sales from those who think they are getting the latest thing.

A good example od this is Canon and Nikon putting a new badge on the same entry level cameras each year, but adding little of substance. This is very effective for new entry buyers, presumably the more experienced camera users are more aware of what is happening.

That may not always be the case.

 

[AcutancePhotography]

It may also be that Nikon wants to consolidate the current D800 and D800E into one camera. It really did not make sense for Nikon to have both the 800 and 800E and perhaps by coming out with a "new" D800S instead of producing two separate but almost identical bodies is cheaper and a better business decision.

Very few people who currently have the D800 or D800 will be buying this new D800S unless they were already planning on getting another one. It just does not seem to be a good upgrade worth the money. Now if someone wants to move from a crop to a FF camera, going directly to the D800S makes sense.

ONe of the biggest differences is the incorporation of Wi-Fi which is of interest to some photographers but not to others. It will be interesting to see how well the WiFi works pushing out 41mb data files. Thats a lotta data!

 

[lintoni]

It may also be that Nikon wants to consolidate the current D800 and D800E into one camera. It really did not make sense for Nikon to have both the 800 and 800E and perhaps by coming out with a "new" D800S instead of producing two separate but almost identical bodies is cheaper and a better business decision.

Very few people who currently have the D800 or D800 will be buying this new D800S unless they were already planning on getting another one. It just does not seem to be a good upgrade worth the money. Now if someone wants to move from a crop to a FF camera, going directly to the D800S makes sense.

ONe of the biggest differences is the incorporation of Wi-Fi which is of interest to some photographers but not to others. It will be interesting to see how well the WiFi works pushing out 41mb data files. Thats a lotta data!

The article explicitly states no new built in wifi, but the addition of ***.

New Nikon D800s... Why (in a forum named EOS Bodies)?

 

[ahsanford]

A good example od this is Canon and Nikon putting a new badge on the same entry level cameras each year, but adding little of substance. This is very effective for new entry buyers, presumably the more experienced camera users are more aware of what is happening.

Agree, but why does Nikon do that in such a performance-hungry space as the highest end APS-C and all their FF cameras? That end of the market is dominated by people in forums like these -- pros and (discerning) enthusiasts who put a ton of stock in testing and reviews. Those folks generally don't snap up gear because it's new, but because it has terrific upgrades:

1DX --> high framerate FF
5D3 --> comprehensive AF upgrade + a headphone jack
70D --> dual-pixel AF
7D2 --> presumed to have a much better sensor

Let me put this another way: when Canon does take so long to upgrade its segments, the areas to improve are more clearly defined and demand for those improvements is built up a bit. When is the last time Canon put out a higher-end body (say $1250+, $1500+) where people were scratching their heads at the announcement and wondering why it was happening?

- A

 

[ahsanford]

It may also be that Nikon wants to consolidate the current D800 and D800E into one camera. It really did not make sense for Nikon to have both the 800 and 800E and perhaps by coming out with a "new" D800S instead of producing two separate but almost identical bodies is cheaper and a better business decision.

Even carrying two lines for AA filtering reasons seems nutty. Is a hardware selectable 'AA filter defeat' feature not possible? That's an upgrade some folks might actually jump for.

- A

 

[ahsanford]

New Nikon D800s... Why (in a forum named EOS Bodies)?

It's a development pipeline discussion, not a Nikon discussion.

- A

 

[AcutancePhotography]

The article explicitly states no new built in wifi, but the addition of ***.

You are correct. I got the two confused.

 

[drjlo]

The Nikon "S" models with incremental change must be kind of a bumber for those who own the pre-S models which are no longer latest and greatest (D800, D800E, D600, D4, etc). On the other hand, I would welcome the price drop I expect to see for Nikon D800E on fleeBay.

 

[ahsanford]

The Nikon "S" models with incremental change must be kind of a bumber for those who own the pre-S models which are no longer latest and greatest (D800, D800E, D600, D4, etc). On the other hand, I would welcome the price drop I expect to see for Nikon D800E on fleeBay.

New means a newer latest and greatest, sure, but if the new offering isn't super impactful:

1) Does having latest and (just a little bit more) greatest really mean much in this near-top-end of the market? For these kind of bodies, for every 'look at me with the latest and greatest' enthusiast-in-a-forum shooter, there are likely a higher number of pros rolling their eyes at that mentality.

2) Do you really expect D800/D800E prices to plummet when those cameras may be 98% as powerful/useful as the new offering? We're not hearing of a new sensor or major upgrade to burst-rate, low-light performance, etc.

I don't mean to pick on drjlo here (and please forgive me if it felt that way). Asking the group now -- my primary question remains unanswered: on the pro end of bodies, why have a watered-down mini-upgrade when the pro community is so on-top of performance data and reviews? Even if Nikon is hurting this quarter/year/etc., inefficiently churning out 3% better bodies surely won't help that, will it?

- A

 

[sdsr]

Even carrying two lines for AA filtering reasons seems nutty. Is a hardware selectable 'AA filter defeat' feature not possible? That's an upgrade some folks might actually jump for.

- A

I have no idea, but i'm pretty sure the newisih Pentax K3 has the reverse - it has no AA filter, but you can select an AA filter simulator if you want. Presumably reviews discuss whether it works....

 

[MLfan3]

it wont sell as well as the first D800E model since there is now A7R ,which has the better sensor and better video.
I sold my D800E for another A7R and 6D. the time for the high resolution D-SLR is over. for high resolution studio, landscape or architecture work, we do not need the D-SLR AF and we tend to use it on a tripod LV manual focus,etc. if we work slowly on a tripod, then there is no need for the annoying loud mirror. in other words , we will not see many wanna-be a MFDB kind of FF D-SLRs any more but many high resolution pro level mirrorless cameras like the A7R. I think only high ISO low light cameras still need the mirror (for the decent fast PDAF) at least the sensor based PD AF gets as fast as the pro level D-SLR AF.
for anything else the mirror is not needed, in fact it is better without it.

btw, Sony may not want to sell this new 36mp sensor to Nikon since Sony has already gained significant market share in Australia, China , HK , South Korea , UK and Japan, and it is expecting to become no2 in camera by end of this year. in fact , in HK, South Korea and Australia Sony is already no1 in digital camera. so Nikon has no chance gaining its market share but it will lose a lot of share in the rest of the world too.

 

[drjlo]

The Nikon "S" models with incremental change must be kind of a bumber for those who own the pre-S models which are no longer latest and greatest (D800, D800E, D600, D4, etc). On the other hand, I would welcome the price drop I expect to see for Nikon D800E on fleeBay.

New means a newer latest and greatest, sure, but if the new offering isn't super impactful:

for every 'look at me with the latest and greatest' enthusiast-in-a-forum shooter, there are likely a higher number of pros rolling their eyes at that mentality.

Do you really expect D800/D800E prices to plummet when those cameras may be 98% as powerful/useful as the new offering?

I think your point and my point are similar. I expect those must-have-latest "enthusiast-in-a-forum shooters" WILL indeed put their D800E on eBay, and regardless of what studio pro's do, there will be a lot more D800E's up for sale, and prices will surely drop.

D800E isn't worth it to me at full/near-full price, but if I can pick up a used one at a very good price without the bidding war driving up auction prices, it's a different story. 8)

 

[9VIII]

*** but no Wi-Fi? They have got to be kidding.

I would love a D800E for macro, but it needs to run remotely off a tablet. And not have live view that sucks.

 

[ahsanford]

*** but no Wi-Fi? They have got to be kidding.

I would love a D800E for macro, but it needs to run remotely off a tablet. And not have live view that sucks.

Yeah, I still don't get why *** is prized so much over wifi. I presume pro-style magnesium bodies may have transmission / interference problems (possibly explaining why the more budget plastic bodies get wifi first), but that's not my area of engineering expertise so I'll await Neuro to give me the answer.

- A