No 1Ds IV? [CR1]

[Canon Rumors Guy]

<strong>The hits keep on coming.</strong>

It has recently been suggested to me that there will not be a 1Ds Mark IV at all.</p>
<p>The 5D Mark III (or whatever it’s called) will be aimed to take over the market for 1Ds users.</p>
<p>I know a couple of 1Ds3 users that are using 5D Mark II’s most of the time now. Both folks say if the 5D3 ups its build quality and AF, they’d never buy a 1Ds again. If it’s priced at under $3000, a lot of people will probably feel the same way.</p>
<p>The same person says it’s possible that a new camera at the top of the lineup aimed solely at the medium format market, but not a medium format camera, will come to fruition. The design will be a radical departure (possibly modular).</p>
<p><strong>CR’s Take

</strong>We’ve heard rumblings about this in the past.</p>
<p>Canon fans say all the time that they want Canon to be “revolutionary again”. However, when a rumor points to a big departure (which doesn’t happen frequently), it’s generally put down for being untrue or unrealistic.</p>
<p>I have a lot of trouble seeing a point to the 1Ds line as its currently implemented, I’d say a radical departure is a strong possibility.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong>

 

[nocojoe]

I read a pretty interesting thread about whether or not there is a large enough market share, or enough room for profits for Canon and Nikon to even want to enter into the Medium Format niche. Right now, I don't know if there is enough money in MF cameras for Canon and Nikon to want to enter the fray.

If there is enough monetary incentive, then I can definitely think this rumor is credible. I think it depends on what Canon's outlook is on the MF camera niche.

 

[MadButcher]

Or maybe Canon buys a MF camera company.
Just like they did recently with Océ (ultra high volume copiers and printers).

 

[Canon Rumors Guy]

Or maybe Canon buys a MF camera company.
Just like they did recently with Océ (ultra high volume copiers and printers).

I know for a fact Canon had at least 1 MF manufacturers books open.

 

[stark-arts]

Could that mean the 3D finally comes?

It could mean the highly talked about 3D comes to fruition - a full frame, pro af, weather sealed body but with the size of a 5D. it would cost more for sure - more likely in the 3500 range but would probably be worth it...
they could then do the "7D feature set in a 5D" update that so many people seem to clamor for and keep the same 21mp chip and do little else to the current 5D (perhaps up frame rate to 5, add more video features and the dual chips of the 7D)and call it 5DII and charge maybe even a little less like 2000 and they would OWN the current 2500 dollar full frame market (d700 and sony whatever)

It would also hopefully mean a faster cycle on 1D with the 1DV being full frame 21MP with a 12-14MP crop where it gets 7-8 fps at full res and 12 or so at the 1.3 crop....new AF and try to take back all the market share that the D3s took this past two years....

 

[macfly]

Hmmm, well looks like its time for me to to buy that Nikon D3s.

 

[Flake]

It would be nice to have the option of a 5D MkII type with a battery grip built in as part of the body for sale at a slightly higher price, although how easy this might be in practice is anyones guess.

What is the point of the 1Ds Mk** well part of it is in having a bigger camera than the customer! not much good if a pro turns up with a camera that the client thinks is nothing more special than the entry level models he sees wrapped around the necks of so many amateurs.

Of course it's weather sealed and has a long life shutter and the body is considerably stronger than a 5D MkII at the moment it has the top of the range autofocus (would this fit in a 5D type body?).

From the Luminous Landscape post before we are entering an area of even more diminishing returns, the Canon FF cameras share the same sensor and image processor (although the 5D has better micro lenses) so the images are never going to be so very different if this format is continued. The only real point of a new 1Ds would be if it had a markedly better sensor than the 5D MkIII, this would mean developing two FF units and would the 1Ds sales justify the R & D costs?

The current high street price of the 1Ds means that a photographer could buy 3 5D MkIIs and it's difficult to justify that kind of high price. I just hope that it doesn't mean pricing a new FF model so high that it pushes it out of the reach of ordinary mortals.

 

[Justin]

Radical departure?

Umm, hello. We had the radical departure. It's called the 5D2. That happened 2 and change years ago. What have you done for us lately Canon? Not much. 5D2 remains a slow machine. 1Ds nowhere to be found. 1D4 is not the D we're looking for.

So what if the replacement for the 1Ds series is a 5D3? I don't give a horses arse what they call it. I don't care if it replaces something, doesn't replace something, is a bridge to nowhere, just build a better responding machine around a full frame sensor that works with the EF mount. I'll either keep my 5D2 as backup or swap it for a 7D backup.

What Canon should do but won't (note my marketing nomenclature proposal ditches the "D" for digital shtick since we obviously know these are all digital camera, and replaces it with the lens mount type built exclusively for it).

medium
1 M = medium format sensor, 4 fps, beyond insane DR, modular, new M mount, yada yada expensive

dslr
3 EF = 30+ full frame sensor, 7 fps (boost to 10 with some grip thing), wicked AF, high iso, low noise, insane DR
5 EF = 30+ full frame sensor, 5 fps, medium sick AF, high iso, low noise, insane DR
7 S = 21 mpx APS-C sensor, 8 fps, wicked AF, improved DR
xxS = whatever profitable rebel line they want to keep milking

mirrorless aps-c
9ml = ??, new ml mount (adapter for old aps-c legacy lenses)
11ml = ??, new ml mount (adapter for old aps-c legacy lenses)

 

[Rocky]

<p>The same person says it’s possible that a new camera at the top of the lineup aimed solely at the medium format market, but not a medium format camera, will come to fruition. The design will be a radical departure (possibly modular).</p>
<p>CR’s Take

We’ve heard rumblings about this in the past.</p>

Is there any chance that Canon is thinking about a square sensor that is 31.5mm on each side? This format will use ALL the existing EF lens and take the bulk out of the medium format. Just like the Rollieflex 127 in the OLD film days.

 

[Rocky]

Re: Could that mean the 3D finally comes?

2) I don't think that the 7D needs to become full frame, it's fine where/how it is as a class leader in the APS-C market. The innovation that will matter there will be whether or not to do a Pelical mirror in the next rev.

Pelical mirror is a interesting idea. However, I think canon must have found out something that they do not like about Pelical. canon made the Pelical SLR in the 60's then give it up. As far as I know Canon held the pattern right on Pelical mirror in the SLR, and it has expired (just like the Leica M mount pattern). Canon tried to bring it back again in the 90's and give it up again. Does anyone know the reason behind it, besides the dimmer view finder. I am very curious to know. Now Sony is trying to use it now .

 

[mws]

Re: Could that mean the 3D finally comes?

Pelical mirror is a interesting idea. However, I think canon must have found out something that they do not like about Pelical. canon made the Pelical SLR in the 60's then give it up. As far as I know Canon held the pattern right on Pelical mirror in the SLR, and it has expired (just like the Leica M mount pattern). Canon tried to bring it back again in the 90's and give it up again. Does anyone know the reason behind it, besides the dimmer view finder. I am very curious to know. Now Sony is trying to use it now .

Pelical mirrors allow you to run the AF system during exposure (good for video). But it eats up about 1/3 stop of light, negligible to most users, but if you do a lot of low light stuff you may want every bit you can get.

Here is a interesting article about it: http://asia.cnet.com/crave/2010/11/04/a-dark-side-to-sony-pellicle-mirror-camera-design/

 

[seanmcr6]

"Both folks say if the 5D3 ups its build quality and AF, they’d never buy a 1Ds again. If it’s priced at under $3000, a lot of people will probably feel the same way."

I LOL'ed soooo hard when I read this.

This isn't anything new....I've heard this lots of times....

"If Canon would only make the 20D with better AF and full weather sealing....I wouldn't buy a 1D series...."

"If Canon would only make the 5D with the same AF as the 1DmkII....and better sealed....and under $2000...they would have a **real** winner on their hands...the last camera I would ever need to buy...but this current camera is too expensive for what you get" (btw...how many 5D's did Canon sell?...exactly)

Do you guys think Canon is stupid? Do you think Canon likes making LESS money?

Why would ANY company think it's a good idea to improve a $2400 camera to replace a $8000 one? really? I mean....REALLY?

No chance in hell.

Things are shifting...times are changing. No doubt. But Canon is just like every single other company out there. They create things to make MONEY. Doesn't matter what innovations the come up with, they will always have a tiered approach to selling their cameras and the "PRO" features will be reserved for the pro priced products. They only make it to lesser products when there are enough NEW pro features to continue the class separation.

In case any of you have noticed...Canon (and Nikon) aren't exactly struggling in the sales department. They're not short on cash. They way they do business is working for them. They are not going to change it.

 

[Rocky]

What is the point of the 1Ds Mk** well part of it is in having a bigger camera than the customer! not much good if a pro turns up with a camera that the client thinks is nothing more special than the entry level models he sees wrapped around the necks of so many amateur

I am thinking the opposite. User should have a choice whether he want a big camera to impress his customer or use his own reputation and final result to impress the customer. Vertical grip should be an add on not a built in.
"size do not count, It is the performance that counts". If want to impress the customer, you can walk in with a M9 or a Hasselblad.

 

[unexposure]

What is the point of the 1Ds Mk** well part of it is in having a bigger camera than the customer! not much good if a pro turns up with a camera that the client thinks is nothing more special than the entry level models he sees wrapped around the necks of so many amateur

I am thinking the opposite. User should have a choice whether he want a big camera to impress his customer or use his own reputation and final result to impress the customer. Vertical grip should be an add on not a built in.
"size do not count, It is the performance that counts". If want to impress the customer, you can walk in with a M9 or a Hasselblad.

even if it's some kind of off-topic:
That's exactly the reason with what several "professionals" that own a mf-cam, but shoot with 5dII, justify their investion - it's there to impress the customer.

 

[Macadameane]

In case any of you have noticed...Canon (and Nikon) aren't exactly struggling in the sales department. They're not short on cash. They way they do business is working for them. They are not going to change it.

You're post is right, but it doesn't mean changes won't occur. The 5DII is a slightly more unique case. Because of video, it generated more sales. Canon was not expecting such a hype and adoption for its video capabilities and it may decide to play on that (or expect more sales).

As far as the 1Ds, I don't necessarily think it will be phased out, but there is some logic. 1Ds is way out of a non-professional's price range, but if they can convince a consumer to sell out on a lesser camera and sale 4+ times as many, it could make more money than keeping a product line.

I'm not saying that will mean super high quality (see walmart).

 

[justicend]

Since Pentax launched the its first Medium Format Digital Camera. The 645D contains a large 44x33mm sensor containing about 40 megapixels. It can shoot up to 1.3 frames per second in continuous shooting mode. And the main thing is that it's about 10k$. May be Canon is thinking about this and try to enter this range of medium format digital Camera market.

 

[epsiloneri]

Is there any chance that Canon is thinking about a square sensor that is 31.5mm on each side? This format will use ALL the existing EF lens and take the bulk out of the medium format. Just like the Rollieflex 127 in the OLD film days.

This topic has been covered before, and the conclusion was that it doesn't work for an EF dSLR because there is insufficient room for a mirror (to cover that field) between the lens and the detector. Canon would have to go EVIL to make an EF camera with a square super-FF detector. Then there is the issues with possible internal baffles on lenses (and the minor issue with tulip-shaped hoods).

 

[unexposure]

Since Pentax launched the its first Medium Format Digital Camera. The 645D contains a large 44x33mm sensor containing about 40 megapixels. It can shoot up to 13 frames per second in continuous shooting mode. And the main thing is that it's about 10k$. May be Canon is thinking about this and try to enter this range of medium format digital Camera market.

I lol'ed a lot. :-D

It's rather 1,3 than 13 fps for pentax 645d. That said, I don't think it really is that much of a competitor for either canon nor sony or even nikon ff-dslr flagships.
Reasons? Here we go:
- As already mentioned: Low fps
- Compareable low High-Iso-Settings
- Even larger and heavier than the ff flagships
- Pretty small selection of Lenses to work with
- Only few 11 AF-Sensors
- Only 98% Viewfinder
- Only a slightly step foreward in Colordepth and DR

These are two totally different types of camera. Pentax 645d is more like a Specced-Up-Version of 5d than being compareable to 1ds series - and even 5d performs superior to p645d in some aspects. you just can't really compare mf (if done well) and ff (if done well).

 

[unfocused]

This is all very entertaining and fun to talk about. But it is CR1 and with good reason.

...if the 5D3 ups its build quality and AF, they’d never buy a 1Ds again. If it’s priced at under $3000, a lot of people will probably feel the same way.

Well...yes. Of course. If you can buy a $6,000 camera for under $3,000 a lot of people would buy it. But, the relevant question is, can you build a $6,000 camera for under $3,000?

There is a market for a camera that is built like a tank and that can stand up to extreme conditions. I don't see Canon just giving that market away to Nikon. I also can't imagine that Canon would drop its full frame flagship and leave the crop sensor ID Mark IV as their most expensive body.

...aimed solely at the medium format market, but not a medium format camera

With the improvements in resolution and ongoing march to higher megapixels, this part does sound plausible.

I've wondered before it it wouldn't make sense to split the flagship models into "studio" and "photojournalist" tracks. Virtually indestructible one-piece body for those who work under extreme conditions and a high megapixel body, decently weather-sealed but not bomb-proof for studio and commercial shooters.

My own personal "CR1" rumor is that the IDs and ID will be merged into a single flagship body that allows the user to select resolution and crop. Select full frame with fewer megapixels when you need it and select a 1.3x or 1.6x crop with more megapixels when you need the reach. If I'm right, I can claim to be a genius. If I'm wrong, well, it was only CR1 anyway.

 

[seanmcr6]

In case any of you have noticed...Canon (and Nikon) aren't exactly struggling in the sales department. They're not short on cash. They way they do business is working for them. They are not going to change it.

The 5DII is a slightly more unique case. Because of video, it generated more sales. Canon was not expecting such a hype and adoption for its video capabilities and it may decide to play on that (or expect more sales).

True...but look at the original 5D....it was a segment filler...and it did it's job precisely and sold like gangbusters....for years. It also bridged the gap for those looking for full frame in lower price. The original jump from the XXd to the 1D was huge...having that segment filler closes that gap and gets more photogs to jump up. I know several mid ranged pros that bought the 5D for FF...and the experience with that FF sensor led them to finally buy the 1Ds. Cha-ching for Canon.

It's all about getting the customer to keep buying...repeatedly. That's the tiered approach.

Currently the 5DmkII is top dog. Same sensor as the 1Ds (basically) but with much more features (video). This is a problem and I'm sure it's dried up some of the interest in the 1Ds.

So no, they will not improve the 5DmkIII so much it actually replaces the 1Ds....rather, they will have a new 1D Pro body...at $8000...that finally includes all the video specific tools that users want in the next 5DmkIII...and the 5DmkIII will be incremental to the mkII.

So you'll have XXD bodies with rudimentary video functions/features.....the 7D/5D series for the serious hobbyist....and the 1D series for the pros.

Ahhhh, all is right with the world and Canon has their tiered models back in order. Let the cash-flow roll.

mark my words