No Finalized 5D Mark III Yet [CR2]

[Sherwin]

I thought we were talking about product development and future market, no? Nikon only has the rumored 8/27 product release date. Sony A77 is confirmed which is aiming at the 7D. Yes, there is no imminent threat, not yet. But can Canon's 2010 market share translate into that they have nothing to worry about and can delay the 5D3 for another year? I highly doubt it.

The 'delay' is not because they have a lead, but to continue leading in the future. Release the camera too early, and we can get lower features for the next 3 years, such as the D700 and A900 lack of video. I think Nikon, Sony and Canon entry level FF will be released during the same period, with not more than 3 months from each other. Keep in mind that the D700 is the oldest and expect this one to be released first.

I agree if we were having this conversation in mid-2010. Unfortunately Canon is almost certain to get into a defensive position once Nikon and Sony released their product in August. And we were talking about mid-2012 for the release of 5D3. IMHO, this will be too late and too little. As they said in Matrix: everything that has a beginning has an end. That includes the leading market share.

 

[Blaze]

Signed up to put in my two cents on the wish list. In order of priority:

Video autofocusing.
Significantly better DR by say...at least 1.5 stops.
Very clean images at high ISO's. Perhaps 4 stops better than we have with the 5dII.
Better autofocus
>5 FPS
Slightly more resolution, but not at the expense of the previous high ISO performance or DR requirements.

I would pay much more than a paid for my II to get it, and I'm sure I'd have to.

Your wish list is similar to mine, RSBJ, but I don't think 4 stops better at high ISO is going to happen any time soon. It may not even be within the realm of physical possibility given the quantum nature of light. My rough estimates put the top DSLRs currently on the market within about 3 stops of an ideal sensor limited only by photon shot noise. (No, I don't have any references handy for my back-of-the-envelope calculations.) I'd love to be wrong though. High ISO performance is vital to my needs.

 

[NotABunny]

febuary at the earliest... more like next summer then...

Sony should also be around with their next FF model, so interesting times are coming.

 

[macgregor mathers]

During my friend's wedding a while ago, I had a chance to speak to one of the photographers he hired for the event. It turns out that the young photographer started a studio with several friends, and their main tool is several 5D2s.

To make a long story short, one of their major sales point was to shoot the before-noon actions (wife saying goodbye to her family, groom arrives at bride's house to pick her up, ceremony at the church, etc.) in both video and stills, do the edit work during the afternoon, and make the clip ready for a wedding banquet premiere. For a case like this, they need several 5D2s, and their other equipments are centered on these bodies.

It pretty much the standard around here. In film days, photographers worked in pairs, each carrying two cameras (e.g. one with a wide lens & another with a standard telephoto lens). Now they have an extra video photographer working with them using some digital video camera. AFAIK, people around here shoot stills before the wedding, and shoot both stills & video during, a standard product being a wedding DVD (going down the aisle, exchanging rings, first dance, crowd dancing, etc, my sister made a living for a while editing those DVDs). I've seen stills showing pre-wedding preparations during the wedding, but not video.

I guess having dual purpose bodies as a benefit (versatility, price, lower learning curve, etc), but not a necessity.

 

[Bob Howland]

Signed up to put in my two cents on the wish list. In order of priority:

Video autofocusing.
Significantly better DR by say...at least 1.5 stops.
Very clean images at high ISO's. Perhaps 4 stops better than we have with the 5dII.
Better autofocus
>5 FPS
Slightly more resolution, but not at the expense of the previous high ISO performance or DR requirements.

I would pay much more than a paid for my II to get it, and I'm sure I'd have to.

Ah yes, a kindred spirit. First, four stops improvement at high ISO may be a bit too optimistic. I'd settle for something as good as the Nikon D3s. I think one stop improvement over that camera may be possible. As for dynamic range improvements, I'll take as much as I can get.

Second, regarding resolution, would you accept slightly lower resolution, perhaps to 16.9MP, if it got you dramatic improvements in high ISO image quality? That is one rumor that circulated at the beginning of this year.

Third, after reading this: http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2011/06/photo-lenses-for-video-there-is-no-free-lunch I'm not sure how much I want video in my DSLR.

Fourth, given how good the 5D2 and D700 are and how old they both are, you may not have to pay more.

Fifth, I don't think it'll be called a 5DMk3. I think that name will be reserved for a 35-40MP studio/landscape camera.

 

[Edwin Herdman]

Looking over the previous movie discussion (a lot of good info there from everyone, thanks!) I'll dump my own "wish list" as well:

First, it is clear that to make an EF mount (or similar) video system succeed, Canon will need either a PL to EF adapter (should be quite possible - Zeiss does this with the CP.2 and LWZ.2 lenses' interchangeable mounts), or a range of video-appropriate EF mount lenses. It also seems clear to me that as video and stills cameras have quite different requirements, to avoid bloated and unwieldy bodies it may become essentially unavoidable to create two different bodies. But I am still hopeful that they will make video as good as possible on the stills DSLRs, even at the expense of a few controls tailored for video even while other useful photographic controls remain buried in menus (or, gasp, not available at all).

My own top wishes for the 5D's stills camera successor:

- Better ISO without obvious banding (or blotches) and fewer hot spots in long exposures - or at least point out for users a better workflow path for creating dark frame subtraction (haven't fiddled with this in DPP but it would help a lot of nighttime photographers get better results on being educated about this feature).
- Better AF, at least equivalent in capability to the 7D isn't asking much assuming the same price point (I am not expecting a lower-specced full frame camera).
- Better mirror lock up and live view combination, and "video autofocusing" aka better and faster contrast detect AF
- >5 FPS also

Random thoughts on data transfer and the ISO / megapixels controversy:
The "lower resolution cameras have better noise performance" is simply a bad myth that has been debunked, again and again, but all the same there are still some problems with higher resolution, mainly slower operation and file size bloat. With the improvements in computers and computer interfaces of late, these appear likely to have improved yet still critically pressing. USB transfer rates will still be lengthened appreciably with larger files (i.e. going from 21MP to perhaps 32MP is going to be a roughly 50% longer file transfer, no matter if you are using USB2, USB3, or whatever), and if resolution keeps apace with hard drive and data transfer rates in commodity computers we arguably can't foresee a point where the major factor in file transfer length is the human speed of removing the card or plugging the camera in, although improvements in USB3 connectivity should make an impact.

I think that the speed difference will be most notable for SDHC/SDXC camera users who may move from using a camera with a slower SDHC-only, USB2 interface to a SDXC and USB3 interface; a 5D Mark III or better likely still uses CF but people already are buying the fastest cards possible so the main improvements may come in terms of the camera's internal data throughput potential (DIGIC V again?) and also the USB interface (if they use that, though it should be more enticing than before especially as USB3 card readers still seem thin on the ground). I think that RAW shooters suffer considerably more from this than JPEG shooters, for whom the new transfer rates of Class 10 SDHC cards and USB3, and faster CF cards, will probably be a really big difference.

Of course, a big point to be made is that a lot of people simply won't upgrade their support equipment; Class 10 SDHC cards are available yet I still use my Class 6 "Extreme III" cards which were pretty much best in class at the time, but now seem laughably small and overpriced (at the time) compared to newer offerings. Likewise, with some new 64GB CF cards passing the $1000 mark per unit, the pro shooters appear to have even steeper pricing requirements.

 

[NotABunny]

point out for users a better workflow path for creating dark frame subtraction (haven't fiddled with this in DPP but it would help a lot of nighttime photographers get better results on being educated about this feature)

What do you mean? It's already automatic.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E30D/E30DA7.HTM

In the EOS-30D though, while apparently still using the sophisticated on-chip noise reduction processing we saw in the 10D and the conventional dark-frame subtraction we saw in the 20D, Canon has added an Auto option as well. Accessed via Custom Function 02, the "Long exposure noise reduction" seems to operate just the same as dark-frame subtraction on other cameras we've seen. The new Auto mode allows the camera to decide whether the scene and the accompanying noise needs dark frame subtraction applied. Both Auto and On do their work only on shutter speeds of 1 second or longer.

The 5D has it as well: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos5d/page24.asp

The EOS 5D has typical 'dark frame subtraction' noise reduction for exposures of one second or longer, this can be enabled or disabled via the camera menu. Dark frame subtraction NR works by taking a second equal exposure immediately after the first but with the shutter closed, any hot pixel noise in this second exposure can then be subtracted from the first to produce a cleaner image.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Sorry, the above is just one person's opinion about the relative merits of bells and whistles on one toy with the bells and whistles on another toy.

toys? I wouldn't call 5D2, Sony F3 and so on toys.

and getting rid of nasty moire and other aliasing, certain even just semi-shadow detail compressed to muck is just asking for bells and whistles? You do realize that if you shoot small lights that are not flickering on and off that flickering on and off is how they appear on Canon DSLR video. Shoot ripples in a lake and moire city. Shoot a nature scene with fine tree branches and twigs and as the wind blows them watch how the smallest twigs pop into and out of existence! I mean you can still get very nice stuff out of it but you can also easily hit into all sorts of nasties.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Signed up to put in my two cents on the wish list. In order of priority:

Video autofocusing.
Significantly better DR by say...at least 1.5 stops.
Very clean images at high ISO's. Perhaps 4 stops better than we have with the 5dII.
Better autofocus
>5 FPS
Slightly more resolution, but not at the expense of the previous high ISO performance or DR requirements.

I would pay much more than a paid for my II to get it, and I'm sure I'd have to.

Ah yes, a kindred spirit. First, four stops improvement at high ISO may be a bit too optimistic. I'd settle for something as good as the Nikon D3s. I think one stop improvement over that camera may be possible. As for dynamic range improvements, I'll take as much as I can get.

Second, regarding resolution, would you accept slightly lower resolution, perhaps to 16.9MP, if it got you dramatic improvements in high ISO image quality? That is one rumor that circulated at the beginning of this year.

Third, after reading this: http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2011/06/photo-lenses-for-video-there-is-no-free-lunch I'm not sure how much I want video in my DSLR.

Fourth, given how good the 5D2 and D700 are and how old they both are, you may not have to pay more.

Fifth, I don't think it'll be called a 5DMk3. I think that name will be reserved for a 35-40MP studio/landscape camera.

17MP vs 21MP is not going to give you a dramatic improvement for high ISO, it would be a barely even detectable difference and the low ISO DR might go DOWN by even slightly more.

But anyway I'd rather it be 24-27MP and 6.3fps than 35-40MP and 4fps.

 

[J-Man]

Indeed these are interesting times, but they are also turbulent times, new tech is coming fast and furious, what we call a camera is being pulled in many directions, from cell phones, to HD video cameras the size of a deck of playing cards, slt, mirrorless, HDSLR, planing your multi-year market strategy during these times must be scary, you could literally kill your company(or at least the division) if you bet wrong.

Canon is facing pressure like it hasn't felt in a while in designing the replacements for the 5DMKII & 1DsMKIII,
I have a feeling that Canon was cough off guard at how popular video was in the 5DII, I would be surprised if the 5D & 1Ds R&D budget's haven't doubled or at least been increased, the competition over this next product cycle is going to be fierce,
Nikon is bringing the D4 & D800, Sony with FF SLT, RED, Sony Emount video system, Panasonic has theirs.
I could see the 5DMKIII with 2 bodies as that's relatively cheap compared to the guts inside, so one will be like the 5DMKII, with improved ergonomics, and another that's, well uglier, but it will be modular, so you can attach things to, like lighting, mikes, lcd's and grips to name a few, call it the 5DVMKIII, I

I'm sure the D3(s)/D700/SLT situation has caused Canon to rethink their strategy for those markets, which could result in a delay.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

I'm sure the D3(s)/D700/SLT situation has caused Canon to rethink their strategy for those markets, which could result in a delay.

What is the situation you are referring to? Nikon has publically stated that they made a error with the D3S in not having enough resolution, and stated that in the future there will be a better balance of resolution versus ISO sensitivity. Apparently, there was a big exodus of the companies that buy cameras by the dozens to Canon for the higher resolution. Canons 5D MK II must be outselling the D700 by orders of magnitude.

I'm not aware of any technology break thru in the area of sensors, there are tradeoffs, and differences in marketing approach, but Canon is doing very well in DSLR sales.

I don't believe that there is a big enough improvement in camera sensors right now to justify a new model, I hate it when new models come out with no real improvements, so I'm happy to wait until they have something that will make me upgrade my 5D MK II.

 

[derbrocks09]

I'm one of those guys who has already left Canon for Panasonic and I know two friends who just left for the Sony FS100. Canon is about to lose huge if they don't produce a competitor to the AF100 and FS100 fast!

Once the Birger mount finally arrives then it will be even harder for Canon to win guys like me back.

FWIW I started with video with the 5d II and later bought a 7d as well. Sold them both when I got an AF100.

There are a LOT of people in my shoes, believe me.

...
DP Philip Bloom wrote a great article on the need for Canon to act NOW, or risk losing serious market share in the video world because so much is starting to happen in that arena. A good read.

http://philipbloom.net/2011/07/21/the-state-of-play/

5D3 with video by next summer will be too late for a lot of people who will have switched to Sony or Panny by then.

Please provide quotes, justification, etc, for your last sentence.

Dilbert, just READ the article and all the comments, it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to see the writing is on the wall for Canon in regards to video. For stills Canon will reign supreme but video is in a flux. I'd like to hope that Canon would want to capitalized on other markets, but it just doesn't seem like it.

I did read the article - the article does not present an argument for your prior claim nor your claim here.

What the article does is construct a scenario around one particular strawman. That is, the article is written around a fictional person that may or may not exist. Thus with the absence of any specific hard facts, the entire article is a work of fiction. The clever part about this fiction is that with careful construction, it is easily believable to be actual fact.

Listen to the interview with Gale Tattersall (the guy that directed the episode of House using the 5D Mark2.) What lenses did the professionals use? Canon. What message does that send to amateurs that want to shoot video on a 5D Mark2? Use Canon lenses.

Dilbert, here's what Philip Bloom (who was one of Canon's biggest proponents and one of the reasons why Canon sold tons of 5D2 to video shooters) said.

Philip wrote: "This is what Canon needs to do with their generation 2, and it needs to be done SOON. No line skipping. No moire, no aliasing, a headphone jack. Live, adjustable audio meters on screen. A much better codec. I also still shoot a lot on my GH2, as it’s so damn small and the image is just so stunning. I want my Canons to get better, especially my 5DmkII!! We haven’t seen the best of what DSLRs can give us yet – as I said, Canon is still on generation 1. I just really want them to HURRY UP!"

Also, read the numerous comments. Nearly everyone who responded wants Canon video to get their %*$& together and release something now. Philip has basically moved on from the Canons to the Panasonics and Sonys. He wants to keep using Canon, but he doesn't have a reason at this moment because the video tech is so OLD.

Sorry, the above is just one person's opinion about the relative merits of bells and whistles on one toy with the bells and whistles on another toy.

Further, there's no actual facts presented about people moving away from using the 5D Mark2 nor even facts on the number of people who would even think about it. Similarly, all that you've presented are your own fears and opinions that are built on top of Philip Bloom's (i.e very shaky foundations.)

When you've done some real market research (go and speak with and survey 1000 random 5D Mark2 owners - and not via web forums) that have used the 5D Mark2 for more than toy videography, come back and let us know whether or not they're satisfied, etc.

Until you or someone else can post the results of proper market research, anything you've got to say on this matter is just your own opinion and nothing more.

Just because House MD shoots parts of the show on the 5D, doesn't mean that it's a perfect camera and that it needs no improvements. I'm sure if you asked Gale Tattersall, he'd have a list of improvements also, probably not too different than Philips: No moire, no aliasing, better codec.

If you had listened to the full interview then you would know what improvements he thinks that Canon needs to make.

It's not much to ask for really, but Canon just does not want to do it.

How do you know that Canon does not want to do it?

Have you talked to the executives at Canon to find out?

Have you put the interview between you and them somewhere on the Internet where we can all read it?

 

[Edwin Herdman]

point out for users a better workflow path for creating dark frame subtraction (haven't fiddled with this in DPP but it would help a lot of nighttime photographers get better results on being educated about this feature)

What do you mean? It's already automatic.

This is actually (at least on one semi-current DSLR) the focus of a particular Custom Function in the camera's menus, and yes, it generally seems to be set to Automatic normally.

BUT!

There is a big problem when leaving it that way - the camera's decision to shoot and subtract a dark frame means that you have to wait considerably longer than normal. For a 30 second exposure, you'll have to wait about a minute. Basically it doubles the amount of time an exposure takes (and doubles the number of shutter activations), which is appropriate for a lot of nighttime photography, but not all. From what I've read (which may or may not be wildly inaccurate!), you can usually just shoot dark frames in similar conditions within a month of your initial exposure and apply the dark frame later. For somebody who goes out to shoot a lot of nighttime photos, being able to take one or a few different dark frames and easily apply them in DPP is what I think makes a lot of sense.

You're right though - the current Automatic way is more than good enough for many cases. I definitely see this as a case of doing one better than what is already good enough for most uses.

 

[Edwin Herdman]

Once the Birger mount finally arrives then it will be even harder for Canon to win guys like me back.

HOLY QUOTE VORTEX BATMAN. (Snipped.)

Also, how would Canon have lost you if you were using a Berger mount to put EF lenses on another body? The situation with Canon cameras and lenses isn't like the classic razor / blades deal (cheap razors, expensive blade packs) but Canon isn't doing that bad if they can sell lenses for competitor systems.

I think that Canon is definitely looking into ways to get you back to their system, though. Will it be successful, will it be EF mount or PL? All sorts of questions are out there that haven't been answered. I think the potential is there for some pretty amazing changes in the future, and then again maybe not.

 

[Loswr]

How do you know that Canon does not want to do it?

Have you talked to the executives at Canon to find out?

Have you put the interview between you and them somewhere on the Internet where we can all read it?

That part's easy, even I can answer that...

gene_can_sing: "Mr. Canon exec, does Canon want to improve the video capabilities of the 5D line?"

Canon exec: "No comment."

gene_can_sing: "Will Canon address the shortcomings of the 5D Mark II in the areas of moire and rolling shutter?"

Canon exec: "No comment."

gene_can_sing: "Don't you want to keep your loyal customers by giving them what they want?"

Canon exec: "No comment."

...and so on.

 

[Bob Howland]

The "lower resolution cameras have better noise performance" is simply a bad myth that has been debunked, again and again,...

We'll have to agree to disagree about that.

 

[awinphoto]

How do you know that Canon does not want to do it?

Have you talked to the executives at Canon to find out?

Have you put the interview between you and them somewhere on the Internet where we can all read it?

That part's easy, even I can answer that...

gene_can_sing: "Mr. Canon exec, does Canon want to improve the video capabilities of the 5D line?"

Canon exec: "No comment."

gene_can_sing: "Will Canon address the shortcomings of the 5D Mark II in the areas of moire and rolling shutter?"

Canon exec: "No comment."

gene_can_sing: "Don't you want to keep your loyal customers by giving them what they want?"

Canon exec: "No comment."

...and so on.

Haha... it's sad but true. haha

 

[UncleFester]

I'm one of those guys who has already left Canon for Panasonic and I know two friends who just left for the Sony FS100. Canon is about to lose huge if they don't produce a competitor to the AF100 and FS100 fast!

I have no facts to support, but my guess is the majortyof people leaving Canon were not terribly commited to begin with.

From photographer to big-time filmmaker because a dslr shoots video? Nah.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

I'm one of those guys who has already left Canon for Panasonic and I know two friends who just left for the Sony FS100. Canon is about to lose huge if they don't produce a competitor to the AF100 and FS100 fast!

I have no facts to support, but my guess is the majortyof people leaving Canon were not terribly commited to begin with.

From photographer to big-time filmmaker because a dslr shoots video? Nah.

Are you referring to Vincent Laforet? Pulitzer Prize winning photojournalist who switched from still photography and moved from New york to Hollywood where he now does video full time? Of course, he now uses Canon DSLR's, Red, Sony, Arri, and others, but it was because of the 5D MK II that he made the switch, and has more business than his company can handle. The right tool for the job.

He is a photographer, and a camera is a tool, be it video or still, its the guy behind the lens who makes it all work.

 

[derbrocks09]

Good point.

I won't be completely leaving Canon because I will continue to use my lovely L primes.

But once the Birger mount is out for the af100 and Sony F3 /fs100 it will be much harder for Canon to sell a video camera to guys like me who got into video in the first place because of the unique capabilities of the 5d and 7 once we've jumped ship.

Seems to me Canon is screwing up huge here. Resting on their laurals, arrogence, whaterever. I think they are screwing up on what could have been huge for them had they taken the lead and beat Sony and Panasonic to the punch.

I hope they recover fast. But they should announce their plans asap because once the Birger mount is in my hands they will have to release an amazing camera to get me back.

Once the Birger mount finally arrives then it will be even harder for Canon to win guys like me back.

HOLY QUOTE VORTEX BATMAN. (Snipped.)

Also, how would Canon have lost you if you were using a Berger mount to put EF lenses on another body? The situation with Canon cameras and lenses isn't like the classic razor / blades deal (cheap razors, expensive blade packs) but Canon isn't doing that bad if they can sell lenses for competitor systems.

I think that Canon is definitely looking into ways to get you back to their system, though. Will it be successful, will it be EF mount or PL? All sorts of questions are out there that haven't been answered. I think the potential is there for some pretty amazing changes in the future, and then again maybe not.