Now that...

[K]

....the 1DX2 and 80D have been released, there is some insight as to the path Canon is taking given what they are offering in these two cameras (and the existing 7D2).

My guess at this point is, the 6D2 is going to be the camera that sports a 28MP sensor with around 5fps at best. While the 5D4 will have a 24MP sensor and 8fps.

This makes the most sense.

The 5D4 will be better suited at 24MP to be a great all-around FF pro, wedding and event camera as is its tradition to be. Good at everything.

The 6D2 is more likely to get the 28MP as the original 6D was hailed by so many Canon owners as a good landscape camera. Enthusiasts love megapixels, and this will be a smaller, lighter and less expensive body than a 5DS, with connectivity features they will appreciate. This is the enthusiast FF that may give up some low light performance vs the 5D4 and speed (as well as AF and other features) to give a good mix of resolution and quality.

I don't envision an 8FPS camera with 28mp. Unless Canon only upgrade the 5D4 1frame...I doubt this. The 5D4 will have 1/2 the FPS as the 1DX2 top end. I think it is getting 8. With 8, I say it will lean toward 24mp to keep the data moving.

Pros who buy the 5D4 aren't infatuated with megapixels. They want clean ISO, speed and features that helps them get the shots they need quicker and easier.

With the 1DX2 having the same AF pattern and layout, the 5D4 should also be the same. The 6D2 will probably get the 45pt system. Some kind of FF version of the 19pt would be a major insult to Canon system owners. 6D2 will be "crippled" with 1 SD slot. Doubtful he 6D2 will get any decent video at all. That will belong to the 5D4. Touchscreen or tilt screen on 6D2? Who knows. It will probably be upgraded with built in connectivity of several types.

I think the rumor of two 5D4 bodies is a confusion of 6D2 and 5D4 specs. I just can't see Canon releasing (2) 5D series bodies after already having (2) 5DS bodies. That would be a total of 4 5D camera bodies out there at once. Unlikely.


It's safe to say that the 5D4 will not surpass the 1DX2 in ANY spec with the exception of megapixel count. It has always been this way. So in a way, the 1DX2, minus it's obvious advanced features like ridiculously blazing FPS, is the limit for what the 5D4 could have.

The existing 5D3/ 5DS is now the lower limit of what the 5D4 will have.

Then there are other features out there, like DPAF - that could make their way into the 5D4. These would be nice additions, but we now mostly have an upper limit and lower limit for the common specs.

 

[H. Jones]

I think Canon could still have some surprises for the 5D Mark IV-- for example, since it's a wedding/event/portrait sorta camera, why not include a 600EX-RT radio transmitter built in? That would truly cement its place for those users.

I'm sure there'll be some surprise market point for it. It was nice when the 5D Mark III got the 1DX focus system; that was a pretty big leap up for the 5D.

 

[arcer]

It's getting rare to see someone writing great posts such as these, great analysis K.
The path you are envisioning the 6D2 seems to coincide with the past rumor that Canon will upmarket the 6D to better specs, but I tend to disagree with your theory of it becoming "the" landscape camera. The 6D became the great landscape camera due to its various sensor advantages over the 5D3, and also due to its lightness being a perk for travel and therefore becoming the landscape travel cam people grew to love. I still hope it continues to be the travel FF camera it started to be but with interesting specs with the same introduction price.

After seeing the upgrade of the 80D over the 70D, we might be in for a surprise for the 5D4. Canon might not be fulfilling our rumored specs, but they might introduced some new innovative tech like the internal RF transmitter Jones said.

 

[Maximilian]

Hi K!

Although I can follow a lot of your arguments, I mus say that ...

...
My guess ...
the 6D2 ... sports a 28MP sensor ...
the 5D4 will have a 24MP sensor ...

... if that guess comes true I'd be really surprised.
The "entry level FF" having a higher resolution than the "Pro Alrounder"?
But we'll see for sure...

 

[Hillsilly]

Good analysis, but once Fuji steals away Canon's landscape, travel and portrait shooters with their 120+mp mirrorless medium format cameras with the new organic sensors , don't you think Canon will drop the 5D line entirely and go into MF too?

 

[Bennymiata]

Good analysis, but once Fuji steals away Canon's landscape, travel and portrait shooters with their 120+mp mirrorless medium format cameras with the new organic sensors , don't you think Canon will drop the 5D line entirely and go into MF too?

We'll see about that in 10 years or so when Fuji bring it out.

 

[Maximilian]

Good analysis, but once Fuji steals away Canon's landscape, travel and portrait shooters with their 120+mp mirrorless medium format cameras with the new organic sensors , don't you think Canon will drop the 5D line entirely and go into MF too?

MF always means bigger and more expensive lenses than 135 or smaller.
And I don't believe that Fuji can bend the laws of physics to make the lens cheaper and smaller (less glass).
I still can see MF only as a niche market for pros ans specialists.

 

[Ozarker]

....the 1DX2 and 80D have been released, there is some insight as to the path Canon is taking given what they are offering in these two cameras (and the existing 7D2).

My guess at this point is, the 6D2 is going to be the camera that sports a 28MP sensor with around 5fps at best. While the 5D4 will have a 24MP sensor and 8fps.

This makes the most sense.

The 5D4 will be better suited at 24MP to be a great all-around FF pro, wedding and event camera as is its tradition to be. Good at everything.

The 6D2 is more likely to get the 28MP as the original 6D was hailed by so many Canon owners as a good landscape camera. Enthusiasts love megapixels, and this will be a smaller, lighter and less expensive body than a 5DS, with connectivity features they will appreciate. This is the enthusiast FF that may give up some low light performance vs the 5D4 and speed (as well as AF and other features) to give a good mix of resolution and quality.

I don't envision an 8FPS camera with 28mp. Unless Canon only upgrade the 5D4 1frame...I doubt this. The 5D4 will have 1/2 the FPS as the 1DX2 top end. I think it is getting 8. With 8, I say it will lean toward 24mp to keep the data moving.

Pros who buy the 5D4 aren't infatuated with megapixels. They want clean ISO, speed and features that helps them get the shots they need quicker and easier.

With the 1DX2 having the same AF pattern and layout, the 5D4 should also be the same. The 6D2 will probably get the 45pt system. Some kind of FF version of the 19pt would be a major insult to Canon system owners. 6D2 will be "crippled" with 1 SD slot. Doubtful he 6D2 will get any decent video at all. That will belong to the 5D4. Touchscreen or tilt screen on 6D2? Who knows. It will probably be upgraded with built in connectivity of several types.

I think the rumor of two 5D4 bodies is a confusion of 6D2 and 5D4 specs. I just can't see Canon releasing (2) 5D series bodies after already having (2) 5DS bodies. That would be a total of 4 5D camera bodies out there at once. Unlikely.


It's safe to say that the 5D4 will not surpass the 1DX2 in ANY spec with the exception of megapixel count. It has always been this way. So in a way, the 1DX2, minus it's obvious advanced features like ridiculously blazing FPS, is the limit for what the 5D4 could have.

The existing 5D3/ 5DS is now the lower limit of what the 5D4 will have.

Then there are other features out there, like DPAF - that could make their way into the 5D4. These would be nice additions, but we now mostly have an upper limit and lower limit for the common specs.

The 7D mark II has 10 fps. Don't know why the 5D Mark IV wouldn't. Some will say it will eat into the 1DX II market share. No it won't.

 

[K]

Hi K!

Although I can follow a lot of your arguments, I mus say that ...

...
My guess ...
the 6D2 ... sports a 28MP sensor ...
the 5D4 will have a 24MP sensor ...

... if that guess comes true I'd be really surprised.
The "entry level FF" having a higher resolution than the "Pro Alrounder"?
But we'll see for sure...

Hi!

Well, the flagship 1DX2 is lower res than any of these!


You're right, it isn't the trend as was the 6D and 5D3. My thinking is speed.

If Canon has a 24mp 6D2 and a 28mp 5D4 (which is very possible), then I don't see the 5D4 having 8fps. I see it getting a modest 7fps. But who knows? 28mp with 8fps (or more?) would be great!

To pros, speed is more important than megapixels. Wedding shooters are just fine with 18, 20, 22 megapixels. 24 is gravy. More than that, data starts getting on the large size. Remember, many of them are cranking out 1,200 - 2,400 shots or more for an 8 hour wedding day. No, the 5D4 isn't just for wedding shooters - but they are a huge market for this camera line. For general commercial/pro work, t24mp will allow print to any type of album size, and can print large posters and prints no problem. Covers anything needed for any kind of media. If need to print billboards or super high resolution large prints, 5DS, but those users know who they are and what they need.

But, knowing Canon, they might not want it being lower pixel count for various reasons.

Again, my thinking is based on speed. 7fps sounds too weak of an upgrade, and 8 sounds about right. Given 8fps, I'd think they would want 24mp for speed / buffer concerns and also low light performance.


5D4 is almost guaranteed to be an upgraded or enhanced 61pt system like the 1DX2, minus so many F8 capable points. What about a FF version of the 7D2 65pt system? That would be interesting....

At best, Canon can pull a Nikon and give the same AF as their flagship to the 5D4. Although, while Nikon does this - in reality and practice, this so-alledged "same AF" does not perform the same as the flagship. There's more to AF than points. There's processing, there's how it is programmed, even the shape, size and configuration of the body matters....sorry, there's no free lunch Nikon fanboys. Try out a D4S and you'll see that claim goes out the window.

But I digress, the point here is that at best it will match the 1DX2, and more than likely, will be less than it. So with the announcement of the 1DX2, all the rumors and speculation of huge number AF point new systems is pretty much history....does anyone think Canon would debut a higher AF point, new AF system for the 5D4? I seriously doubt they'd upstage their sports flagship.

***********

Someone mentioned that the 5D4 could and ought to have 10fps. I think it could too. 10fps was a few generations back on flagships, so Canon could pull it off. Data is no problem at 20mp at least...could they do with 24? Probably.

I disagree in that I truly think it would dig into 1DX2 sales and for that reason, Canon would say no. Those out there who painfully fork over the cash for a 1D series could be "left off the hook" and get a brand new sensor, better ISO, more megapixels and ENOUGH speed to get the job done. Key world - enough speed. A certain threshold is being approached....

Remember, just because the 1DX2 keeps upping the bar on FPS, doesn't mean the usefulness of a range of FPS changes. Look at it this way, it's like the point of diminishing returns. As the speed keeps going up and up - there's less and less of a difference. The jump from 5fps to 10fps is absolutely huge. The jump from 10fps to 14fps isn't as much. The exception here is, that as FPS goes up, these higher FPS cameras are going to be more and more appealing ONLY to those who need the absolute utmost in speed. That is, those people photographing really high speed stuff. The logical conclusion of that is capturing super high quality video (4K or 8K), and then just picking out frames.

Where does every single FPS more help? For people who want to capture the ball the moment it touches the bat in baseball. Or wanting to capture the perfect moment as the high jumper starts clearing over the bar - with their arched back. Or the gymnast in air doing a perfect split. A bird in flight at maximum wingspan.

10FPS captures a lot of that. 16fps captures MORE of that, faster and easier. It's about saving time, which is money.

I guess the short of what I'm saying is, for most people looking for speed, 10FPS is enough. 8 and lower isn't. It's decent, but not in the same realm. If Canon offers up "enough" - I think they'll lose some sales. Those who would have had to cough up the cash can get off cheaper going to a 5D. Canon isn't letting that happen. No way. If you want 10fps cheap, you get a 7D2 and give up IQ. That's the price you pay. You're not getting a $3000 coupon to FF 10fps speed.

Think of it another way -- take all the high speed scenarios. Put them in a big bin...

10fps will handle easily, say (just a guess) 90% of the scenarios very well, and the rest just average or lower.
16fps will handle 98% of them really well, and 2% of them just average or lower.

Pros, time is money. Opportunities in sports are rare. The 1DX2 machine gun is all about being a big filter to catch the perfect moment. Another analogy - like panning for gold - the 5D is like using a shovel and pan in the river, the 1DX2 is like a conveyor belt gravity fed system that processes tons or dirt per hour.

FPS is about extraction of perfect moments. Harvesting photos by throwing speed at it. 10fps gets you into that ballpark and realm. Puts the camera in a different "class" so to speak.

 

[Maximilian]

Hi K!

Although I can follow a lot of your arguments, I mus say that ...

...
My guess ...
the 6D2 ... sports a 28MP sensor ...
the 5D4 will have a 24MP sensor ...

... if that guess comes true I'd be really surprised.
The "entry level FF" having a higher resolution than the "Pro Alrounder"?
But we'll see for sure...

Hi!

Well, the flagship 1DX2 is lower res than any of these!


You're right, it isn't the trend as was the 6D and 5D3. My thinking is speed.

If Canon has a 24mp 6D2 and a 28mp 5D4 (which is very possible), then I don't see the 5D4 having 8fps. I see it getting a modest 7fps. But who knows? 28mp with 8fps (or more?) would be great!

To pros, speed is more important ...

Hi again, K!

Sorry, for truncating your argumentation above, but it is almost at the point where I lost your argumentation.
(honestly it was a few words later)
I got your argumentation as a "trade MP for speed" and "how many FPS does the 5D4 need, compared to 1DX2". All fine, all accepted if it was meant so.
As an implicit conclusion you would have come back to the "if the 6D2 doesn't need speed it can get more MP as the 5D4" argument where I was doubting.
To this i can fully agree in a technical point of view.
But I also take the "marketing" and "market positioning" of a product into account.
And if you start to make the 6D2 better in AF, a little bit in speed and give it more MP than this could become the more interesting camera for wedding photogs. Because of price, size an resolution and to many FPS are still enough. (Only argument left against it could be a single card slot)
So Canon could cut the ground from under the 5D4s feet and sell a $2.000 camera where the customer was willing to buy a $3.000 camera.

And this is the reason why I still see the 6D2 with less MP as the 5D4.

But maybe Canon marketing people see the competition coming from somewhere else and will decide different.
We'll surely see...

 

[rfdesigner]

Concidering I bought a 6D recently.....

I would only kick myself if the 6DII had significantly better low light ability (>1stop) and much better quality AF & spread of AF. If it has a million double cross type sensors down to -99EV but they're all in the centre then I don't care.

I've been used to 8Mpix and have got very satisfactory A3 prints off that, 20MPix is enough unless you're cropping heavily (and I accept some do) or you're doing some advanced landscape or studio/art repro stuff (which is what the 5Ds is all about)

I would hope a new 6D has the joystick and better back pannel weather sealing ahead of any significant increase in pixels.

 

[pedro]

Concidering I bought a 6D recently.....

I would only kick myself if the 6DII had significantly better low light ability (>1stop) and much better quality AF & spread of AF. If it has a million double cross type sensors down to -99EV but they're all in the centre then I don't care.

I've been used to 8Mpix and have got very satisfactory A3 prints off that, 20MPix is enough unless you're cropping heavily (and I accept some do) or you're doing some advanced landscape or studio/art repro stuff (which is what the 5Ds is all about)

I would hope a new 6D has the joystick and better back pannel weather sealing ahead of any significant increase in pixels.

As I recently bought a 6D as well (after having received insurance money for my stolen 5D3) I would like to ask a question:
How come that the 6D got this excellent sensor back in the day? By pure hazard or by launching a "proto-beta-version" of the current 1DxII sensor? Therefore I kinda wish, that the 6D will get a 24 MP sensor or even less -> any likeliness for a newly developped 22 MP sensor? Wish there was...As by following this scheme, more than 22 MP would contradict to the former 1DX 18 MP/6D 22 MP formula 8)

 

[bdunbar79]

Good analysis, but once Fuji steals away Canon's landscape, travel and portrait shooters with their 120+mp mirrorless medium format cameras with the new organic sensors , don't you think Canon will drop the 5D line entirely and go into MF too?

MF always means bigger and more expensive lenses than 135 or smaller.
And I don't believe that Fuji can bend the laws of physics to make the lens cheaper and smaller (less glass).
I still can see MF only as a niche market for pros ans specialists.

I would say you need to get out more. Or learn to detect humor/sarcasm. 8)

 

[x-vision]

My guess at this point is, the 6D2 is going to be the camera that sports a 28MP sensor with around 5fps at best. While the 5D4 will have a 24MP sensor and 8fps.

It would be interesting to see if the 6DII and 5DIV have different sensors - or maybe share the same sensor.

The 6D always felt like an afterthought, put together hastily after the 5DIV specs have been frozen.
So, it always seemed to me that Canon used a different sensor simply for product differentiation.

Going forward, though, the 6DII and 5DIV could maybe share the same 28-30mp sensor and be differentiated on other specs.
We'll see.

 

[Maximilian]

Good analysis, but once Fuji steals away Canon's landscape, travel and portrait shooters with their 120+mp mirrorless medium format cameras with the new organic sensors , don't you think Canon will drop the 5D line entirely and go into MF too?

MF always means bigger and more expensive lenses than 135 or smaller.
And I don't believe that Fuji can bend the laws of physics to make the lens cheaper and smaller (less glass).
I still can see MF only as a niche market for pros ans specialists.

I would say you need to get out more. Or learn to detect humor/sarcasm. 8)

First I do enough, second is not easy to trigger if you're not a native speaker and don't see the others face.
Too bad that people think everybody can read between the lines.

And others write that it only could be meant as humor/sarcasm but are totally serious in what they say.
Can you tell me how to differentiate between those two forum species?

 

[pedro]

My guess at this point is, the 6D2 is going to be the camera that sports a 28MP sensor with around 5fps at best. While the 5D4 will have a 24MP sensor and 8fps.

It would be interesting to see if the 6DII and 5DIV have different sensors - or maybe share the same sensor.

The 6D always felt like an afterthought, put together hastily after the 5DIV specs have been frozen.
So, it always seemed to me that Canon used a different sensor simply for product differentiation.

Going forward, though, the 6DII and 5DIV could maybe share the same 28-30mp sensor and be differentiated on other specs.
We'll see.

I hope not...24 MP 6DII would be nice. But they better keep it as low as 22 MP.

 

[K]

How come that the 6D got this excellent sensor back in the day? By pure hazard or by launching a "proto-beta-version" of the current 1DxII sensor?

My guess is that slightly newer technology became available after the 5D3 release. The 6D is about a year newer. But also factor in that the tech used in the 5D3 was not new at the time of the 5D3's release. It was tech used for the 1DX, which was released before it, and that tech precedes the 1DX release date. So this is 2010 technology.

I believe the 6D's development period/cycle was shorter than the 5D3. This gave it access to a newer sensor. Afterthought? Maybe, maybe not. The 6D received a lot of recycled features from other cameras, and a couple of new ones.

The newer sensor, obviously took advantage of the advancements and the 6D is a better sensor than the 5D3. The 5D3 propagandists back in 2012-2013 would show how the IQ of the 5D3 is better than the 6D...sure, with 2:1 zoom in at ISO 100. However, when it came to how much you could do with the RAW file, the 6D is clearly superior.


I'm disappointed that rumor has it the 6D2 is not going to have a 2nd card slot. Canon is right for doing it too. Cause if it does, I won't buy a 5D4. Canon is protecting the 5D series quite a bit with that single omission. The 6D2 will be my next FF if it has 2 slots. However, if it doesn't - I will not reward Canon's intentional crippling by handing over another $1,500 just for a 2nd slot - I will seek other options. Remember, $2,000+ camera with 1 lousy SD slot. Yet, I'm treated as unreasonable or unrealistic by the apologists....heh!


I'm in the market for a 2-card, FF camera in the 24-28mp range, with good low light performance, good low light AF, and around $2,000 or less. Don't care about FPS, video, touch screens. Just a good machine with great IQ for stills and low light application.

I don't think I'm unreasonable to think Canon ought to offer that for $2K. They are almost there with the 6D or 6D2.

A 6D2 with one slot would be like buying a BMW with roll up windows...

 

[mkabi]

From my understanding, a lot of the tech from the 5DII was somewhat recycled in the 6D.
If that logic continues then you are looking at 5DIII stuff in the 6DII.
At most... I don't see the 6DII going above 24MP.

Now the 5D4 is going to see new territory. There is going to be a serious jump in MP, like how the 5DII was to the 5D (original) as there won't be any change in AF and metering. DPAF, ***, may be 4K??? (I mean, I know... I know... enough with the 4K, right? But this is only time that it can don the moniker 5D4K)
Similar to the 1DC only 4K/24p (MJPEG) and 1080/60p. Not as good as the 1DX2. With the bump in MP, they are going to keep it at 5fps.

 

[expatinasia]

A 6D2 with one slot would be like buying a BMW with roll up windows...

lol, quite an exaggeration there!

I use a 1DX and never shoot to both cards simultaneously no matter how important the event.

Sure I could have a card fail on me, then again I could have two fail on me, or three, or the camera might break, I might even get run over by a bus, hit by lightning or....

If you are so concerned about losing data, buy extra cards and swap them out frequently, it's not that big a deal and if you are going to do that you can buy smaller GB cards which are also cheaper.

 

[Hillsilly]

First I do enough, second is not easy to trigger if you're not a native speaker and don't see the others face.

Well, I'm glad you took my post seriously. It is based on fact. Fuji currently have some rangefinder style prototypes floating around and are gauging market interest. (A $3500 - $5000 camera plus lens range is a big risk for a niche player with less than 1% of the market and where your loyal customers are used to paying less than $1500 for your cameras.) They are also building a new sensor factory where the organic sensor that they are developing with Panasonic will likely be built.

But if it came to fruition, for the same price as 5D, you'd have a camera system that was noticeably smaller and lighter (think Fuji GA645), significantly higher MP, industry leading IQ atributes and shallower DOF if you want it. And the lenses don't need to be too expensive - just look at the Pentax 645D. It will be a more compelling competitor to Canon than anything Nikon (or Sony) have put out recently.