One of my favorite photographer goes mirror less

[Woody]

I am going to wait for EOS-M3. Just need it to come with DPAF, articulate screen, EVF and wired remote.

 

[jrista]

thats great for the type of photography he shoots...but let me see him try to shoot a full wedding with that rig or a heavily scheduled fashion shoot or sports....

mirrorless is a neat technological development but i don't see it ever replacing entirely the convenience of looking through an OVF and being able to see and react quickly to your subject matter.

call me old school....

Aye! I'm playing with the A7r right now, and even though it has some cool features, even a relatively advanced EVF like this is no replacement for an OVF. You can feel the lag...it's not obviously apparent, this is a fast EVF, but it is still there. Movement also has a blurred appearance as you pan around, which is frustrating. The worst thing is the moire...MASSIVE moire an aliasing in the EVF, especially around things like blinds in windows or the deckboards of my deck. It's really bad.

The other thing about an EVF is you have that limit on detail. I can readily see the pixels in the A7r EVF. I can also tell that there is a limit on resolution. It's always been claimed by EVF advocates that the ground glass in an OVF limits resolving power. That may be true, however it doesn't limit it anywhere even remotely close to how limited EVFs are. The difference is massive. I can very clearly tell when my subjects are focused in the 5D III (much better than in the 7D even). I really have a tough time telling what's focused with the A7r EVF...because of that resolution limit.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

Mirrorless is getting better, but some of the advantages he claims are drawbacks to me. Small size means difficult to operate, using LCD to compose and focus?? Really? In bright sun too?

EVF is a given, the alternative silvered mirror or use of LCD are worse. I can live with a good one.

However, his claim that AF will surpass Phase detect? The camera may focus very fast, but, if you can't see what you are focusing on, its not really useful.

I'm glad people are buying them, it will encourage faster development, and maybe soon, we'll see a full sized camera with a hybrid viewfinder and choice of AF type.

 

[Woody]

thats great for the type of photography he shoots...but let me see him try to shoot a full wedding with that rig or a heavily scheduled fashion shoot or sports....

mirrorless is a neat technological development but i don't see it ever replacing entirely the convenience of looking through an OVF and being able to see and react quickly to your subject matter.

call me old school....

Aye! I'm playing with the A7r right now, and even though it has some cool features, even a relatively advanced EVF like this is no replacement for an OVF. You can feel the lag...it's not obviously apparent, this is a fast EVF, but it is still there. Movement also has a blurred appearance as you pan around, which is frustrating. The worst thing is the moire...MASSIVE moire an aliasing in the EVF, especially around things like blinds in windows or the deckboards of my deck. It's really bad.

The other thing about an EVF is you have that limit on detail. I can readily see the pixels in the A7r EVF. I can also tell that there is a limit on resolution. It's always been claimed by EVF advocates that the ground glass in an OVF limits resolving power. That may be true, however it doesn't limit it anywhere even remotely close to how limited EVFs are. The difference is massive. I can very clearly tell when my subjects are focused in the 5D III (much better than in the 7D even). I really have a tough time telling what's focused with the A7r EVF...because of that resolution limit.

Another vote from me for OVF. EVF has awful lag and appearance... Apparently, it doesn't bother many. EVF is OK for casual photography.

 

[ritholtz]

I am going to wait for EOS-M3. Just need it to come with DPAF, articulate screen, EVF and wired remote.

I am also going to move to M as soon as Canon releases one with all these features and flash commander (as soon as Canon release M which moves beyond rebel capabilities and closer to 70D). We might see multiple M models when Canon takes them seriously.

 

[jrista]

thats great for the type of photography he shoots...but let me see him try to shoot a full wedding with that rig or a heavily scheduled fashion shoot or sports....

mirrorless is a neat technological development but i don't see it ever replacing entirely the convenience of looking through an OVF and being able to see and react quickly to your subject matter.

call me old school....

Aye! I'm playing with the A7r right now, and even though it has some cool features, even a relatively advanced EVF like this is no replacement for an OVF. You can feel the lag...it's not obviously apparent, this is a fast EVF, but it is still there. Movement also has a blurred appearance as you pan around, which is frustrating. The worst thing is the moire...MASSIVE moire an aliasing in the EVF, especially around things like blinds in windows or the deckboards of my deck. It's really bad.

The other thing about an EVF is you have that limit on detail. I can readily see the pixels in the A7r EVF. I can also tell that there is a limit on resolution. It's always been claimed by EVF advocates that the ground glass in an OVF limits resolving power. That may be true, however it doesn't limit it anywhere even remotely close to how limited EVFs are. The difference is massive. I can very clearly tell when my subjects are focused in the 5D III (much better than in the 7D even). I really have a tough time telling what's focused with the A7r EVF...because of that resolution limit.

Another vote from me for OVF. EVF has awful lag and appearance... Apparently, it doesn't bother many. EVF is OK for casual photography.

I've learned that the Sony A7r EVF performance seems to depend on what your pointing at. Not sure why, but there are times when it lags HORRENDOUSLY bad. Part of it is the EVF update speed is related to your chosen exposure...once you get down to large fractions of a second, the EVF lags at that rate. But even at higher frame rates, there are times when panning around when it seems to hit an object or texture or whatever, and that jerks on the lag, and it becomes very visible for a moment or two.

I know a lot of people are fans of EVFs because of what they can do. There is no question this thing can overload you with information about...everything. For me, though, information overload should very much be a secondary concern to high image quality, high frame rate, high resolution, and otherwise being non-intrusive to assisting you in what a viewfinder is designed for: Framing the shot.

I wonder if the low shutter speed issue will always exist. It is probably the single biggest issue...once you get down to 1/30th of a second or slower, it really has a major impact on the EVF frame rate. I got down to 1/4 second at one point...and WOW. I figured the camera would simulate exposure, but it actually seems to really do the exposure you've chosen, even for slow shutter speeds. It really kills the user experience.

 

[Steve]

I've learned that the Sony A7r EVF performance seems to depend on what your pointing at. Not sure why, but there are times when it lags HORRENDOUSLY bad. Part of it is the EVF update speed is related to your chosen exposure...once you get down to large fractions of a second, the EVF lags at that rate. But even at higher frame rates, there are times when panning around when it seems to hit an object or texture or whatever, and that jerks on the lag, and it becomes very visible for a moment or two.

I know a lot of people are fans of EVFs because of what they can do. There is no question this thing can overload you with information about...everything. For me, though, information overload should very much be a secondary concern to high image quality, high frame rate, high resolution, and otherwise being non-intrusive to assisting you in what a viewfinder is designed for: Framing the shot.

I wonder if the low shutter speed issue will always exist. It is probably the single biggest issue...once you get down to 1/30th of a second or slower, it really has a major impact on the EVF frame rate. I got down to 1/4 second at one point...and WOW. I figured the camera would simulate exposure, but it actually seems to really do the exposure you've chosen, even for slow shutter speeds. It really kills the user experience.

Its weird, I've never actually noticed a single problem with the EVF on my X-E1. It never seems laggy, I've never seen individual pixels, I've never felt overloaded with info or in any way felt hindered in framing a shot. I had to go grab my camera just now to try out the 1/4s shutter thing. It does get laggy at that speed but I never would have noticed if I hadn't just read your post. I can see the pixels if I concentrate on doing that but again, never would have noticed on my own. Maybe there is too much info in some of the newer Sony cameras but I never really see any of the icons and numbers in my camera's EVF unless I need to reference them. I really don't think the majority of people see any of these things as problems or even see them at all.

Have you tried the X-T1 by any chance? Its about the nicest EVF out there and I wonder if it would make a difference to you or not.

 

[jrista]

I've messed with the X-T1 in local stores. I have pretty acute vision with my contacts in, and even with my glasses (the contacts measure a little better than 20/10, with my glasses its very close to 20/10.) At less than an inch of eye relief, seeing the pixels in EVF's is not difficult at all. I am also not able to block out a lot of information...some kind of hypersensitivity thing.

Same problem with my ears...they, or my brain, doesn't filter incoming sounds...I usually hear all kinds of things at once...multiple sounds from various things, that I can usually hear quite clearly simultaneously. I can pick out background fans, vibrations, buzzes, ticking sounds, conversations, music, etc. all at once. Electronic buzzes and rumbling backgrounds (like idling engines) are my bane...I can sometimes block out other sounds, but those two are just impossible for me to filter out. Sounds 90% of the people in the world wouldn't ever hear unless you clearly and explicitly described the sound to them so they could explicitly listen for it...then, maybe, they will finally pick it out of the background noise. It's a curse. Has largely been responsible for severe insomnia that I've had for well over a decade now.

My eyes are much the same way. Most people don't notice whats in their periphery unless it moves. For me, it's all stuff that's dragging at my attention. Right now, I'm looking at my computer screen, and my TV is on in the background to my left, a plane is flying past my window to the right, and there is this annoying reflection bouncing off one of my eye glass lenses (I don't know what it is, but I'm going to have to find out after I'm done writing this, because...it BUGS ME! ) I like the clean, clear, crisp and open OVF on my Canon cameras. They are wonderful. The AF points don't show up until I want them to, when they do, it's fleeting...more than enough to tell me what happened. The information displayed in it is sparse, but useful. That, to me, is the epitome of viewfinder design. It's non-distracting.

Sony's EVF is about as distracting as it gets...with the panning stutter, the constantly visible level, and all the other junk distributed about the periphery. Maybe there is a way to turn that stuff off...I've poked through the menus a bit, and haven't found a way yet. Anyway...yeah, I'm probably not a great exemplar for potential EVF users. However, there are a few key issues with them that I think can be and are issues for most people...such as the frame rate lowering (causing worse stuttering) when you use a slower shutter speed. The big pixels will be visible to anyone with better than average vision (which is actually a high percentage of people with average corrective lens prescriptions). There are benefits to EVFs...but I think many/most of those benefits could actually be implemented in Canon's Transmissive LCD layer in their OVFs, greatly mitigating the benefits that EVFs offer over OVFs.

 

[sanj]

thats great for the type of photography he shoots...but let me see him try to shoot a full wedding with that rig or a heavily scheduled fashion shoot or sports....

mirrorless is a neat technological development but i don't see it ever replacing entirely the convenience of looking through an OVF and being able to see and react quickly to your subject matter.

call me old school....

Aye! I'm playing with the A7r right now, and even though it has some cool features, even a relatively advanced EVF like this is no replacement for an OVF. You can feel the lag...it's not obviously apparent, this is a fast EVF, but it is still there. Movement also has a blurred appearance as you pan around, which is frustrating. The worst thing is the moire...MASSIVE moire an aliasing in the EVF, especially around things like blinds in windows or the deckboards of my deck. It's really bad.

The other thing about an EVF is you have that limit on detail. I can readily see the pixels in the A7r EVF. I can also tell that there is a limit on resolution. It's always been claimed by EVF advocates that the ground glass in an OVF limits resolving power. That may be true, however it doesn't limit it anywhere even remotely close to how limited EVFs are. The difference is massive. I can very clearly tell when my subjects are focused in the 5D III (much better than in the 7D even). I really have a tough time telling what's focused with the A7r EVF...because of that resolution limit.

Another vote from me for OVF. EVF has awful lag and appearance... Apparently, it doesn't bother many. EVF is OK for casual photography.

I've learned that the Sony A7r EVF performance seems to depend on what your pointing at. Not sure why, but there are times when it lags HORRENDOUSLY bad. Part of it is the EVF update speed is related to your chosen exposure...once you get down to large fractions of a second, the EVF lags at that rate. But even at higher frame rates, there are times when panning around when it seems to hit an object or texture or whatever, and that jerks on the lag, and it becomes very visible for a moment or two.

I know a lot of people are fans of EVFs because of what they can do. There is no question this thing can overload you with information about...everything. For me, though, information overload should very much be a secondary concern to high image quality, high frame rate, high resolution, and otherwise being non-intrusive to assisting you in what a viewfinder is designed for: Framing the shot.

I wonder if the low shutter speed issue will always exist. It is probably the single biggest issue...once you get down to 1/30th of a second or slower, it really has a major impact on the EVF frame rate. I got down to 1/4 second at one point...and WOW. I figured the camera would simulate exposure, but it actually seems to really do the exposure you've chosen, even for slow shutter speeds. It really kills the user experience.

I find focusing with the XE very convenient. If I want to focus manually it is amazing with split screen/peaking etc. When focusing automatically, when the focus point goes green, focus is done. Not sure why you said that.

Another thing: EVF tells me right after taking the photo, without looking at the lcd, if for any reason the photo is blurred. I love that….

 

[sanj]

I've learned that the Sony A7r EVF performance seems to depend on what your pointing at. Not sure why, but there are times when it lags HORRENDOUSLY bad. Part of it is the EVF update speed is related to your chosen exposure...once you get down to large fractions of a second, the EVF lags at that rate. But even at higher frame rates, there are times when panning around when it seems to hit an object or texture or whatever, and that jerks on the lag, and it becomes very visible for a moment or two.

I know a lot of people are fans of EVFs because of what they can do. There is no question this thing can overload you with information about...everything. For me, though, information overload should very much be a secondary concern to high image quality, high frame rate, high resolution, and otherwise being non-intrusive to assisting you in what a viewfinder is designed for: Framing the shot.

I wonder if the low shutter speed issue will always exist. It is probably the single biggest issue...once you get down to 1/30th of a second or slower, it really has a major impact on the EVF frame rate. I got down to 1/4 second at one point...and WOW. I figured the camera would simulate exposure, but it actually seems to really do the exposure you've chosen, even for slow shutter speeds. It really kills the user experience.

Its weird, I've never actually noticed a single problem with the EVF on my X-E1. It never seems laggy, I've never seen individual pixels, I've never felt overloaded with info or in any way felt hindered in framing a shot. I had to go grab my camera just now to try out the 1/4s shutter thing. It does get laggy at that speed but I never would have noticed if I hadn't just read your post. I can see the pixels if I concentrate on doing that but again, never would have noticed on my own. Maybe there is too much info in some of the newer Sony cameras but I never really see any of the icons and numbers in my camera's EVF unless I need to reference them. I really don't think the majority of people see any of these things as problems or even see them at all.

Have you tried the X-T1 by any chance? Its about the nicest EVF out there and I wonder if it would make a difference to you or not.

Yep.

 

[Hjalmarg1]

http://www.juzaphoto.com/article.php?l=en&t=from_reflex_to_mirrorless_sony_a5100

Around 6 years ago when I restarted photography after 15 years (film to digital) I found Juza on internet and learned a lot from his website.

I have also looking after a lighter solution to my DSRL camera and the Sony a6000 is on top of my list. I was also expecting some good news from Canon during photokina but never happened. I wish a EOS-M with similar capabilities of the a6000 in terms of AF speed and accuracy and fps.
I need a smaller camera where I can use my Canon glasses and I would prefer same Canon systems.

 

[msm]

Maybe there is a way to turn that stuff off...

Bingo!

Menu 2 submenu 2 DISP Button. Set up what information you need (or none) for finder and for screen and cycle through them with the disp button.

 

[msm]

...
I wonder if the low shutter speed issue will always exist. It is probably the single biggest issue...once you get down to 1/30th of a second or slower, it really has a major impact on the EVF frame rate. I got down to 1/4 second at one point...and WOW. I figured the camera would simulate exposure, but it actually seems to really do the exposure you've chosen, even for slow shutter speeds. It really kills the user experience.

Doesn't behave like that for me, surely you must have set something somewhere in the menus.

 

[Cali_PH]

Normally I stay out of these convo's as people tend to get childish and borderline rude, as well as I don't think people's opinions are going to change, right or wrong. But I wanted to correct a few things I noticed:

the shutter was noisy and vibrated significantly. put anything long than 100mm lens and the images blurred from this.

From what I read the issue is limited to a certain range of slower shutter speeds ( only around 1/50 or something?), but I haven't tested it since I mainly use 14-50mm on my A7r (landscapes). I just put my 70-200 F/4 on my A7r for the first time to test this and shot from my tripod at 200mm, F4, 1/320, iso100. Results were sharp (well, as sharp as can be expected when I can visibly see heat shimmer coming off the roof I focused on).

A simple example is I do use the EVF panel at 10 times magnification on the DSLR to get focus on landscapes. the A7R won't do this unless you use Sony branded lenses

I bought the A7R for landscapes too, and in my experience this is not true. Note that I mainly shoot landscape, so my typical setup is on a tripod, zoom in, manual focus, hit the shutter release, which is what you describe. Technically, you're right, it won't zoom in at 10x with Canon lenses; it zooms at 7.2x and 14.4x I just tried it; you DO have to remember to flip the autofocus switch to manual if your lens has one.

And since I wondered if there were brand-specific issues, I also just grabbed my Rokinon 14mm, Sigma 35A & 50 1.4, and I could zoom in on all of them. Note that I have the Metabones adapter (VIII I think), so it could be possible there's some issue if you used a different brand or version adapter.

no remote shutter easily available so make your own etc etc.

Here in the US Sony's RM-VPR1 remote shutter release is readily available on Amazon, Adorama, B&H etc. I'm not sure about outside of the US. Granted, it's expensive and basic, similar to Canon's. A quick glance at Amazon.com shows me there's some cheaper third party ones too. There's also the built-in wireless option, but I'm sure that would reduce the already bad battery life.

 

[Cali_PH]

...
I wonder if the low shutter speed issue will always exist. It is probably the single biggest issue...once you get down to 1/30th of a second or slower, it really has a major impact on the EVF frame rate. I got down to 1/4 second at one point...and WOW. I figured the camera would simulate exposure, but it actually seems to really do the exposure you've chosen, even for slow shutter speeds. It really kills the user experience.

Doesn't behave like that for me, surely you must have set something somewhere in the menus.

I agree with msm, mine doesn't act like that either; I just pointed it at my TV figuring that would make the effect even more obvious, but I didn't notice any issues with EVF frame rate. I'm wondering if I'm just not noticing it, since above I saw you discuss how you may notice things others don't?