Pentaprism 5D discontinued....?

Oct 28, 2013
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Are canon really discontinuing the pentaprism, I mean, rather than a tiny R5, I would prefer a LARGER 5D with a LARGER pentaprism, a'la the one on the 1D's (but with more pixels than the 20 mp that the 1Dx3 offer), or if possible, a larger one yet.

I can't use a digital viewfinder for anything, for one thing, if what is in focus is marked in the viewfinder, then I can't see the fine details that I need to see to press the shutter at just the right moment, and for another, if I haven't got it on, then I can't really see what is in focus.
With a low-tech 100% 0.90x optical viewfinder, both is extremely easy....

What are they thinking....?
 
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privatebydesign

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What are they thinking....?
They are following the market demand, you and your opinion are very much in the minority. I struggle with EVF’s, which makes your opinion greater than one, but that won’t cut it in a world market of millions.

Canon might well say to you, ‘what’s wrong with the 5D IV?’.
 
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Oct 28, 2013
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@privatebydesign, in terms of the young generations demanding evf (/not knowing what they REALLY want/need....;- ), it could maybe make sence if canon made the 6D evf, not the prosumer 5D line of cameras....
 
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Joules

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To also give you a serious answer:

Are canon really discontinuing the pentaprism
Probably yes. And a definitive yes, if we are talking mainstream offerings in the long term.

rather than a tiny R5, I would prefer a LARGER 5D with a LARGER pentaprism [...] I can't use a digital viewfinder for anything, for one thing, if what is in focus is marked in the viewfinder, then I can't see the fine details
Did you actually try a R5 already? By all acounts that I am aware of, ergonomics of the R5 are comparable to the traditional 5 series and the EVF is an improvement over models used in previous Canon cameras in all aspects. Also, with regard to markings obscuring fine detail in the EVF, are you talking about focus peaking? That is an optional feature, you don't have to use it if you prefer to manually focus with a different aid. In this regard, an EVF should actually make life easier for you, as you have the option of seeing the true DoF (unlike on an OVF) and can zoom in even in the viewfinder for precise manual adjustments.

What are they thinking....?
We have seen a number of advances in the R5 that would be hard to replicate in a 5 series DSLR, probalby impossible without increasing the price significantly:

- IBIS introduces challenges with regards to composition on an OVF camera (different framing on the sensor and the viewfinder) and can't be coordinated with EF lenses as well as RF ones due to the older, slower interface (both electronically and in terms of the communication)
- High FPS is associated with greater complexity on a DSLR, since in addition to the shutter, the mirror also has to move at these high speeds and the AF relying on the mirror is compromised. Even the 1DX III can't match the performance of its LiveView mode in OVF mode.
- Autofocus: The eye AF and greater tracking abilities appear to be impossible to implement in an OVF at a 5 series price point. Even with the 1DX III, where the AF sensor basically is a second image sensor (unlike in all previous Canon cameras), they can't even do eye AF.

Also, consider this: The R5 is not a cheap camera. As I just described, a potential 5D V would lack some of the R5's key features. If Canon released such a 5D camera, it would split the demand for a 5 series camera between these two, and therefore increase the price of both models.

With all this and the greater insight into the technical challenges aswell as the market itself Canon seems to have chosen to move the high end EF line towards the RF ecosystem. Even the 7D series, which is arguably the one benefitting the most from an OVF, hasn't seen an upgrade and is rumored to be canceled.
 

privatebydesign

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@privatebydesign, in terms of the young generations demanding evf (/not knowing what they REALLY want/need....;- ), it could maybe make sence if canon made the 6D evf, not the 5D line of cameras....
Hmm, what makes you think the market doesn't know what it wants?

I use EVF's and OVF's, most of the time I prefer OVF's but do see and like the different functionality EVF's offer and I embrace that. I also well understand the acceptance of screens in general is utterly ubiquitous and for many it is entirely more 'natural' to view things through an EVF than an OVF even though that is counter to the actual definition of the words!
 
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privatebydesign

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The same that was wrong with 1DX II?
Many would say there is little difference between the 1DX II and it's successor, enough to not really consider it a serious enough upgrade to be called a new model. I'd disagree with that as 1 series models have very different priorities and marketing drivers than other camera bodies. Besides, a Tokyo Olympics was far too big an opportunity to go unaddressed.

Surely though the 1 series is an exception to the general R&D rules at Canon and you could take the time to do a critical analysis of the model and garner some insight into the way Canon considers it a special case. First off it is a comparative low volume seller, yet is also a high value item and very high profile part of the camera range, these facts sway the R&D to a different degree than the rest of Canon's cameras. The user base of the 1 series is generally heavily invested in the Canon ecosystem and I'd guess has a higher percentage of professional users than other models. Reliability and familiarity of use are as highly valued by that user base than almost any new shiny feature. Actual photographic and to a lesser extent video output is very important, that might sound like a silly thing to say but when your product is producing such a high percentage the images of the NFL, Olympics, etc, the users tend to include a lot of people who earn their livings with their images in scenarios where fast delivery and OOC images rule.

BUT, the 1 series is currently stuck in the EF lens system and that is not the future, for Canon the future is the RF lens system and any and all ff cameras not sold in the RF mount are a distraction from that inevitable future.
 
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Antono Refa

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Canon sold 5 film camera models until 2007, and the EOS 1V until 2018. Nikon kept selling the F6 until last month.

I doubt Canon is going to release a new DSLR, but might very well continue selling one of the existing models for years.
 
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unfocused

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I believe there have been posts by Canon Rumors Guy that there may be a new DSLR released at some point. Possibly an amalgamation of the 6D and 5D, similar to the 90D and 7D. I doubt if Canon has definitively closed the door on all future DSLRs. I can't imagine they would make that kind of decision right now anyway, as COVID-19 has thrown a gigantic monkey wrench into the market and likely makes it hard to make any firm predictions or plans. The smart move for Canon would be to build out their R line (which they are currently doing) and see if the market is content with mirrorless or if there remains a demand for DSLRs. As a 1DX III user, I can tell you that it is significant upgrade to the II in some very important ways, particularly autofocus. The smart controller functions very similarly to the touch control of the R and it's not hard to see a path to a future for DSLRs.
 
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After I bought my R, my 5D MK IV was seldom used. I did not like the evf but there is more to a camera than a viewfinder. You don't need to see fine details when a camera is always sharply focused, and if you use manual lenses, being able to magnify the view lets you get a far better adjustment.

Now that I have the R5, the EVF is much better than my R. I still don't see as fine of detail as a ovf but I've yet to find it really mattered.
 
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Oct 28, 2013
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To also give you a serious answer:

Probably yes. And a definitive yes, if we are talking mainstream offerings in the long term.

Did you actually try a R5 already? By all acounts that I am aware of, ergonomics of the R5 are comparable to the traditional 5 series and the EVF is an improvement over models used in previous Canon cameras in all aspects. Also, with regard to markings obscuring fine detail in the EVF, are you talking about focus peaking? That is an optional feature, you don't have to use it if you prefer to manually focus with a different aid. In this regard, an EVF should actually make life easier for you, as you have the option of seeing the true DoF (unlike on an OVF) and can zoom in even in the viewfinder for precise manual adjustments.

We have seen a number of advances in the R5 that would be hard to replicate in a 5 series DSLR, probalby impossible without increasing the price significantly:

- IBIS introduces challenges with regards to composition on an OVF camera (different framing on the sensor and the viewfinder) and can't be coordinated with EF lenses as well as RF ones due to the older, slower interface (both electronically and in terms of the communication)
- High FPS is associated with greater complexity on a DSLR, since in addition to the shutter, the mirror also has to move at these high speeds and the AF relying on the mirror is compromised. Even the 1DX III can't match the performance of its LiveView mode in OVF mode.
- Autofocus: The eye AF and greater tracking abilities appear to be impossible to implement in an OVF at a 5 series price point. Even with the 1DX III, where the AF sensor basically is a second image sensor (unlike in all previous Canon cameras), they can't even do eye AF.

Also, consider this: The R5 is not a cheap camera. As I just described, a potential 5D V would lack some of the R5's key features. If Canon released such a 5D camera, it would split the demand for a 5 series camera between these two, and therefore increase the price of both models.

With all this and the greater insight into the technical challenges aswell as the market itself Canon seems to have chosen to move the high end EF line towards the RF ecosystem. Even the 7D series, which is arguably the one benefitting the most from an OVF, hasn't seen an upgrade and is rumored to be canceled.
First of all, sorry for my slightly infantile style above, but it is my boomer dementia pressing in, in combination with a growing frustration over canon's poor choice in terms of viewfinders....;- )

IBIS, I don't care much for IS, I have it in my long lense and thát is very nice, but in my daily work, I don't have any use for it (< music, portraits and events, and a bit of amateur photography, whenever something is too pretty not to have its picture taken...;- )
Also, with IBIS, You get 8 stops of image stabilisation, but how often do You have an object that are sitting absolutely still for thát full second, that You can utilise with IBIS....???

IBIS is only useful for still-life images, whether thát is a handful of flowers on the table in low light, or a street-scene at night, or a landscape where one has stopped the lense down a very good deal (< on a absloutely wind-still day, well to note....;- )
-In its extremes, it is not useful for photo-jobs, and a low-light (f/2.0 and less) pro lense in combination with a highish ISO is generally a better solution than IS, as any movement will be stopped, and captured in a useable way.

Focus peaking, yea, that was what I meant, and if deselected, I will any day prefer to see the object's actual tones in the viewfinder, rather than a camera-generated jpg, I will much more know what I got thát way, and whether I can make an image of it.
Seriously, I will feel alienated in terms of looking into thát hole, detached from both the subject and my own creativity....

The high FPS of the R5, I don't care for it, and the few people who actually need it in their work, probably buy an 1D type camera....

DoF, I basically always shoot full open, so I got the DoF in my optical viewfinder, and should I need to stop down and get just the right DoF, then live-view is usually plenty.
-Any way, I will definitely prefer to have an optical viewfinder, with the advantages that thát one hold, and then use the live-view in the few situations where I need absolute control with a stopped down lense's DoF.

Eye AF, the only situation where I maybe could use eye AF is in live music photography, but, selecting a suitable focus-point and then keeping thát one on the mucisian's eye (or whatever I will want sharp), eventually while leaving a small bit of room around him/her, in order to be able to crop a small bit afterwards (which make a precision choice of focus-point slightly less necessary), is not terribly difficult to do.
-And so, plentifully efficient...

In my portraits I generally focus manually, in the way that I use AF to do the rough focusing, after which I focus by rocking back and forth a bit, that is by far the easiest and fastest and most efficient way of focusing in a portrait situation, with lenses such as 85L and 50L.

And in event-photography I generally just use autofocus in a normal manner, and despite using the mentioned lenses plus the 35L (which is also demanding in terms of focus), I very rarely miss a shot.
-In part because my camera have this incredible viewfinder, which make it super-easy to correct for a bit of movement manually (< much easier than refocusing/recomposing, and quite probably yielding better reults than what I would have if I left it to the camera's automatics, 5D or R5).

And if there's one thing that I hate more than anything, then it is to have to fiddle with the camera while interesting things are going on, and no, I can't see myself swiching back and forth between eye-focus and normal focus, or whatever....
As simple as possible, please, and again, thát does point towards the optical viewfinder, thát in combination with ISO, shutter speed and aperture set beforehand, and being able to shift between "One shot" and "Continous AF" by the button by Your ring-finger, and with the exposure control and focus points by Your thump, You got all the control that You need, in a standard "normal" 5D....

Really, the 1D and 5D cameras as they are, are masterpieces in terms of ergonomics, and it is completely and utterly stupid to change any of the basics....

Cheap, it should be quite cheap to port the R5 to a 5D5, and a lot of dissapointed canon customers will find a 5D5 very welcome, customers that canon absolutely are at risk of loosing, and thát is going to be expensive....

And video, despite having had the option since I bought my 5D2, I haven't really done much video, however, they did put a USB 3.2 in the 1Dx3, so an extern tablet-type monitor is becoming an option, and I will probably go there if I ever get a camera with such a connection.
But, and this is what I really want to get at here, no way that I will use AF for thát, You see ABSOLUTELY no professional filmmakers using autofocus, and really, who will want to do less than professional work....???

And then there is also downsides to the EVF kind of camera, like heated noisy sensors, and the less useful viewfinder mentioned earlier.
-Not to mention that they are ugly....;- )

"Canon seems to have chosen to move the high end EF line towards the RF ecosystem", and thát is quite possibly the single most stupid thing that they could have done, it would quite possible be pretty smart to give the crop-cameras an electronic viewfinder, as they basically haven't got an useable viewfinder anyway, but ABSOLUTELY not the pro/semipro fullframe cameras....

Back in the film-days, I never really thought of the viewfinder, it was just there, but man, when I bought my first digital camera, an Eos 400D cropcamera, whaaaat a shitty small hole thát was....
And despite buying the 85L at around the same point in time, I never grew as a photographer untill I got a fullframe camera, which depite its many, many advantages, more than anything gave me a viewfinder where I could actually see what I needed to see.

Now, these are my arguments, and really Joules (and sorry for the boomer style, but I did probably do serious photography before You were born....;- ), if You don't reckon/acknowledge the advantages of a highly enlarging 100% optical viewfinder, then we can't have a discussion, can we....?
-I'll seriously argue that more than pixels, ISO, dynamic range, ergonomics, screen and features, a really good optical viewfinder is what any skilled photographer need to be the best photographer that he can possibly be....
 
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Oct 28, 2013
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I wrote this in another thread, and as it better than my first comment describe my points of views, I'll copy/paste it here, anyone agree....???

My dream camera would have a huge, clumpsy and heavy (but equally amazing) optical viewfinder, preferrably an 100% 0.95x super-bulky one, with one of these matte-screens that show EXACTLY what is in focus, and nothing else.
Apart from thát; 50 mpix, a pretty good iso 1600 and a useable 3200, as high a dynamic range as possible, and the same with the buffer, a usb 3.2 connection and a 6 or 7" screen on the back, which can be done by exchanging the rear wheel with one that go into the camera, like the one by the index finger.

-Now, thát would be a camera....!!!

Electronic viewfinder R5, no effin way, if needed, I have the rear screen for whatever an electronic viewfinder does better than an optical viewfinder, what.the.heck.are.you.thinking.canon.....???
-With the 1D and 5D lines of cameras, You are basically market leaders, and You are throwing it all away, just to cater for teenagers who are used to use the screen on their phones as viewfinders, and who doesn't know better....???!?!!!?!?!?!!?!!!

An EVF may make sense with the crop-cameras, which basically has a useless small OVF, but in my pro camera I will want to be able to see the ultra-fine small changes in expression that make the perfect portrait in the viewfinder....
-Thát is my job and my art, and if I can't see those due to whatever being in focus being plastered into some sort of highlighting, I won't get the picture....

Sure, I can deselect the plastering, but then I have a lot of dots to look at, rather than the real life that I love to depict, or in other words, I don´t want to see a finished jpg inside the viewfinder either, I want to see the real-life tones that there is, and which I know that I can get out perfectly in ACR and Photoshop.
-And I take basically all my pictures at f/1.0/1.2/1.4, so I coulden't care less for "being able to see the actual DoF", I got thát in my optical viewfinder already....

My 5D3 is getting old, and getting a 3 years old "new" camera (5D4/5DS) isn't quite going to cut it, I COULD get the 1Dx3, but then I am stuck at 20 mp for a very good while....
-Hmmm, both Nikon and Zeiss make a nice 35, 50 and 85 mm, which is basically all that I need, I wonder what Nikon and Sony got to offer camera-wise, I will go and take a look at it right now....
 
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Oct 28, 2013
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And again, sorry for the slightly infantile style, but this is just me finally getting my frustrations out, I really looked forward to Canon's hyped "Enormous Disclosure" some months back, expecting it to be a 50 mp 5D5 with a very nice ISO 6400, but blaaaaah, it was a fullframe point and shoot camera quite possibly replacing the 5D line of cameras.
-I was sooo dissappointed, and thát have then been building upp until now.

Sorry for my slightly over-categoric statements, but, the optical viewfinder better not be dead, please chip in if You agree....
 
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Joules

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Now, these are my arguments, and really Joules (and sorry for the boomer style, but I did probably do serious photography before You were born....;- ), if You don't reckon/acknowledge the advantages of a highly enlarging 100% optical viewfinder, then we can't have a discussion, can we....? [...] And again, sorry for the slightly infantile style, but this is just me finally getting my frustrations out
I can understand the desire to just rent about your frustrations and I am certain that you are not alone with some of them. I also know this year in particular has both contributed much to anxiety and frustrations and also reduced the number of outlets for those. So there's nothing wrong with you expressing you views here, and if you just wrote them down to get these words out of your head or heart, don't take my following comments too serious. But I am replying to your arguments as statements to be taken at face value.

Also, I own a Pentax ME super, which has an amazing split viewfinder. It is far larger and brighter than the one from my 80D and even 1 series, as far as I am aware. There is a beauty to this, no doubt. But every tool has a time and a place, and the specific values of these depend on who you ask.

Also, please don't take offense from my Boomer comment, it was written in jest and not meant derogatory or as an insult. But you are basically asking for it with statements such as this: :LOL:
With the 1D and 5D lines of cameras, You are basically market leaders, and You are throwing it all away, just to cater for teenagers who are used to use the screen on their phones
I highly doubt the target demographic for the R5 in particular, or the upcoming high resolution R and R1, is anywhere near teenage years. It simply takes a certain standing in life to afford these cameras, all of which will cost well above 4k when they come out. The switch to mirrorless and EVFs is motivated by the greater market over all. Smartphones may have contributed to the components such as high resolution OLED screens and high performance SoCs improving in quality and decreasing in cost, but they are far from the only reason EVFs are gaining popularity. And also, Smartphones are used across almost all demographics I believe.

DoF, I basically always shoot full open, so I got the DoF in my optical viewfinder [...] -And I take basically all my pictures at f/1.0/1.2/1.4, so I coulden't care less for "being able to see the actual DoF", I got thát in my optical viewfinder already
I am not sure you are aware, but in an OVF, you are not seeing the true DoF when using a fast lens. Instead, you are looking at what is effectively a stopped down view of the scene due to the micro lenses in the mirror assembly. Hence my comment that you may see a benefit when using a high quality EVF such as the R5's with fast glass.

IBIS, I don't care much for [...] The high FPS of the R5, I don't care for it [...] I'll seriously argue that more than pixels, ISO, dynamic range, ergonomics, screen and features, a really good optical viewfinder is what any skilled photographer need [...] I really looked forward to [...] a 50 mp 5D5 with a very nice ISO 6400, but blaaaaah
So, what is wrong with the 5Ds? Just that it is old? Sounds to me as if you were mostly interested in the higher resolution of the R5?

In my portraits I generally focus manually, in the way that I use AF to do the rough focusing, after which I focus by rocking back and forth a bit, that is by far the easiest and fastest and most efficient way of focusing in a portrait situation, with lenses such as 85L and 50L.
This again sounds to me as if you didn't try an R5 yet. Unless you are a true master at focussing manually, it is hard to believe that you can compete with these fast lenses used on said ILC. Have you seen the eye AF performance? It may not be your personally preferred way to AF, and that is fine. But claiming any form of manual AF is easier is a statement that you simply can't expect to hold true if you apply it to any large portions of the market.

And if there's one thing that I hate more than anything, then it is to have to fiddle with the camera while interesting things are going on, and no, I can't see myself swiching back and forth between eye-focus and normal focus
From what I understand, you can switch between these with the press of a single customized button. Is that too fiddly?

Cheap, it should be quite cheap to port the R5 to a 5D5, and a lot of dissapointed canon customers will find a 5D5 very welcome
Why would you expect it to be cheap? As I previously explained, the main features of the R5 can't be ported at all. Improving AF would either require using the 1DX III AF sensor (expensive), or developing a new one (expensive). And you would look at a greatly diminished customer numbers, as you split the 5 series customers between the 5D and R5, increasing cost for each.

I wonder what Nikon and Sony got to offer camera-wise, I will go and take a look at it right now....
Certainly no more DSLRs, lol. Sony went EVF even before they switched to mirrorless, and I doubt Nikon has the economic capacity to supply anything but the most lucrative market segments. But they do have the D850, which at least matches the R5 in resolution and mostly in IQ.

I really looked forward to [...] a 50 mp 5D5 with a very nice ISO 6400, but blaaaaah, it was a fullframe point and shoot camera quite possibly replacing the 5D line of cameras.
Not sure if you are joking, but calling the R5 a point and shoot camera casts doubt with regard to your previous claims of experience with cameras ;)