R5 detailed lens testing of RF 100-500 f4.5-7.1 vs. RF 800 f11, with & without RF 1.4x TC, for super-telephoto use.

usern4cr

R5
CR Pro
Sep 2, 2018
1,077
1,682
Kentucky, USA
*** PART 1 ***

A fellow R5 user, AlanF, and I enjoy taking photos of birds, sometimes at far distances. We've been wondering how the IQ (image quality) of the RF 100-500 f4.5-7.1L (with or without the RF 1.4x TC) compares to the RF 800 f11 on the R5 for super telephoto shots. I think it was AlanF that suggested that I consider doing a comparative test on them, since I had all of those items, and could do my own test of the IQ of these lenses on the R5, comparing (initially) 500mm, 700mm (500mm & 1.4x TC), and 800mm.

AlanF had suggested that a quantitative test was needed so that the resolution of the lenses could be measured as well as providing images for contrast and overall IQ. He suggested a test chart from Bob Atkins, which I looked at but thought it didn't have the fine resolution that I was hoping to find. So I continued looking online and found another chart, from Erlend Rønnekleiv, that had more detail. I thought I could improve on it, and so I used AffinityPhoto to re-arrange the pieces of it together into a more compact form with more detail in the same space. Erlend gave me permission to use & post this rearranged version, which is:
erlendReworkedChart.jpg


I taped this chart, printed on 8.5" x 11" paper, onto some wood and positioned the camera & tripod 6 meters away. I used a laser measure to ensure the chart was centered in the camera view and was exactly perpendicular to the camera. The 800mm f11 was just past minimum focal distance and viewed the whole test sheet plus just a little extra. Then I took photos at the same distance with it and the RF 100-500 f4.5-7.1L (with and without the RF 1.4x TC). For each I took 5 photos, 1 AF'd in the center and 1 AF'd as far as I could get to the 4 corners. In looking at all 4 corners of the images in their respective photos, they seemed to me to be the same as it was when AF'd in the center, so I only need to show the center AF'd photo from each.

I used DXO PhotoLab4 standard profile, set white balance, and used deep prime only to output tif files, which went to Affinity Photo, where I cropped the center of each (and the original test chart) at 1:1. Note: I did not adjust all white levels to the same brightness (which I'll do next time). So don't worry about them having different brightnesses.
Here they are, for:
original test chart, 500mm, 700mm(500 & 1.4x), and 800mm
testChart_center.jpg A02_0011_center.jpg A02_0006_center.jpg A02_0001_center.jpg

The #lines resolved per sensor height is:
N * 6 * 5464(R5 sensor pixel height) / A
where N is the #(number) on the chart where you get the limit of resolution (N >> 40 (the max on the chart), so I used 40 below)
and A is the #pixels in the photo between the indicated test pattern line start & end, which is:
for 500mm: 1,355
for 700mm: 1,904
for 800mm: 2,340

So, the #lines resolved per sensor height is far greater than these numbers:
for 800: 560
for 700: 689
for 500: 968

So, at this relatively near focal distance, the chart still does not have enough small resolution to properly measure the resolution of the lenses.
Taking photos from further away would solve this, but this was just the initial test I did to see how everything worked.

I'd like to mention that there were many posts between us regarding these results, and further ideas regarding them. AlanF had many great insights into the results and had suggestions on how better to write up the results which I could post for the general CR community. It took a while for me to go through the next steps, since I had other pressing things at home to do and, well, sometimes I pause one task to do other ones. This post and those that follow are a revised summary of what we both came up with, and I hope that it's much more informative and enjoyable for all of you to see.

It occurred to me that I could probably create a higher resolution chart (lines closer together) from scratch using AffinityPhoto.
So that is what I planned to do, which will become Part 2 (next).
 
Last edited:

usern4cr

R5
CR Pro
Sep 2, 2018
1,077
1,682
Kentucky, USA
*** PART 2 ***

Since my 20 year old black & white laser printer still works and is rated to support 1200 DPI, I decided to see how small I could print resolvable test lines on it. Using AffinityPhoto I ran tests and found that I could print up to 200 black lines, separated by 200 white lines, per inch on it that were barely resolvable visually. I'll call this 400 lines per inch (counting a black & white pair as "2 lines"), since many tests I've seen report values that way. Here's the (digital) test pattern I made for that smallest resolution:
chart80.jpg

At 1200 DPI, every 6 dots have 1 black dot and 5 white dots, and the laser printed paper could just be resolved as a (mostly)black and (thin)white pair, so 1200 / 6 * 2 = 400 lines per inch on printed paper. Any lines closer together than this would just print as a gray smudge, so the camera would be looking at a printed chart that was not as crisp & sharp as the digital chart I created in AffinityPhoto and am showing here. The lines at this resolution get so small that I had to use a 3.5x large magnifier with a flashlight to better illuminate it to best see how the digital file looked on once printed.

I then made more patterns, with 7 dots per 2 lines, 8, 9... etc., and ended up with this (digital) group of test patterns:
chart8-80.jpg

I did notice, with the magnifier, that the spacing between the lines seemed to be slightly wider or narrower than expected in certain areas. I didn't know why at the time, and it would be something that I had to live with (well, at the time).

If you take a photo of this test chart, you can measure the length of the "A" arrowed line (either horizontally or vertically) in your photo in pixels, and call it "A". Now set "S" as the # of pixels in the height of your sensor (for the R5 this would be 5464). Each test pattern has a # for it. Now set "N" as the # of the test pattern with the most lines that can be resolved visually as lines (vs. just "mush"). The number of barely resolved lines per sensor height could now be measured as N * 7 * S / A. So, for example, if the arrowed line was 1000 pixels long in your photo and N was 40, then you'd get 40 * 7 * 5464 / 1000 = 1530 barely resolved lines per sensor height.

But I wanted to be able to measure the resolution towards the edges of the sensor as well as in the center of the sensor, so I repeated this group of patterns towards the edges and corners of an 8.5" x 11" page. Then I decided to extend it to a 3 x 3 grid of pages so I could get a bigger test chart to aim the camera at. I filled the gaps between these pattern groups with some "YingYang" art I made, which would contain larger solid areas of black and sweeping curves at various sizes from large to small, and this was the (digital) 3 x 3 page result:
9Pages.jpg


I looked around for any boards I had lying around, and decided to just tape the 3x3 page chart onto a window screen that wasn't in use. I put that chart at the furthest inside part of my house with as many LED lights as I could shine on it, and put my camera & tripod on the opposite furthest side of the house with a clear view of the chart, about 14.85 meters away. Using a laser measure I could make sure the chart was centered in view and perpendicular to the camera. I then took a series of photos of the chart with the R5 and the lenses: 500mm, 700mm(500mm & 1.4x), 800mm, and 1120mm(800mm & 1.4x). For each lens combination I took photos at the center and as far to the 4 corners as the R5 AF box could be set (which was around 75% from center to corner for the 500 or 500 & 1.4x, and around 35% from center to corner for the 800 or 800 & 1.4x). I then visually noted the max chart # ("N") I could resolve for all of them.

The first thing I noticed was that it was really hard to get an exact value of "N", since it was a visual judgement call where the chart went from resolvable to not resolvable. I took 4 duplicate photos of everything so that I could average them together to get a better estimate of what "N" was.

The second thing I noticed was that as you reached the smallest barely resolved lines, you might be reaching the point (in the RF 100-500 at least) where you are approaching 1 sensor pixel for dark gray lines and 1 sensor pixel for light gray lines, so the image may go from barely resolvable to just a gray smudge depending on the how the dark & light lines are aligned on the sensor pixels. We're getting into the area where there is severe moire (by the nature of the test) which when combined with the imperfections of the laser print make it difficult for an accurate judge of which "N" value to claim as the highest barely resolvable.

The next thing I noticed was that the resolution values I got at the center of the chart and at the distances to the edge (noted above) was about the same. Mind you, the 800mm AF focus points don't go very far from the center to the corner, while the 100-500 AF focus points do. Since they were about the same, I'll only show results & images for the center of the sensor (which happens to be where AlanF was most interested in, anyway).

I chose 1/40" exposure for all since it'd give 3 cycles of illumination from the lights (pulsing at 120 fps). Also used IS, AF, electronic 1st shutter, manual aperture & speed with auto ISO, and cRaw (which I use for my photography). All photos are wide open, at AlanF's suggestion:
500mm f7.1, ISO 250
700mm f10, ISO 500
800mm f11, ISO 640
1120mm f16, ISO 1250

This time, in PL4 I also adjusted the white & black levels so that they were the same for all 4 lens combinations to allow for fairer comparisons between them.

Here are the photos without cropping as seen by the lenses.
500mm, 700mm(500 + 1.4x), 800mm, 1120mm(800 + 1.4x):
500f7.1_1_2048.jpg 700f10_1_2048.jpg 800f11_1_2048.jpg 1120f16_1_2048.jpg


Further center image crops and results will follow in Part 3, next.
 
Last edited:

usern4cr

R5
CR Pro
Sep 2, 2018
1,077
1,682
Kentucky, USA
*** Part 3 ***

For each lens combination, I took 4 photos AF'd at the center and 4 as far as the R5 could AF towards each of the 4 corners, trying my best to get a "N" value for the horizontal and another for the vertical lines. Here are 1:1 crops from each.
500mm, 700mm(500 + 1.4x), 800mm, 1120mm(800 + 1.4x):
500f7.1_4_1:1.jpg 700f10_4_1:1.jpg 800f11_4_1:1.jpg 1120f16_4_1:1.jpg

For each lens combination, I averaged all the (8) values to get a "N" value at center and another (32) "N" values for all corners combined. I also got the "A" arrow lengths and could get the #barely resolved lines per sensor height for all of that, which I'll show here:
500: 5100 center, 4520 ~75% to edge
700: 3990 center, 3370 ~75% to edge
800: 3360 center, 3530 ~35% to edge
1120: 3050 center, 2850 ~35% to edge

Yes, the 800mm had better numbers slightly away from the edge than at the center. I assume that this is a result of the difficulty in deciding which "N" value was correct to use, as the printed charts were not nearly as accurate as the digital original, and we are entering the area of extreme moire inherent in this test. Or it can be a result of the sharpness actually increasing at that sweet spot before getting worse towards the edges (but I wouldn't bet on that). So you can take these numbers with a heaping "grain of salt" as appropriate! ;)

This shows (for my crude test) that for the 500mm, every 2.1 center sensor pixels can barely resolve a darker gray line and a lighter gray line, which is highly sensitive to the lines being aligned or not on the sensor (hence the strong moire effect). IMHO that's really great! Now it's not an accurate measure of the amount of separation in brightness between those lines, which would be needed to know how good the contrast was. But it's not bad for the test I'm able to do so far.

I'll show the # of pixels needed to barely resolve 2 lines here:
500: 2.1 center, 2.4 ~75% to edge
700: 2.7 center, 3.2 ~75% to edge
800: 3.3 center), 3.1 ~35% to edge
1120: 3.6 center, 3.8 ~35% to edge


Since I am always that guy who wants to print images really big, for say a bird when I couldn't get any closer to them or they are scared away, I wonder how using each lens combination with resizing would compare to the other. If I up-res one lens photo to the #pixels of another, only 1 photo will suffer resizing loss of IQ. So I don't think it's ever truly fair to do so. And with 4 lens combinations, it's even worse. So I think it's only fair to up-res all of the lens combinations to some higher #pixels so that all suffer resizing losses and thus we can get a fairer comparison.

The longest side of the single chart instance in the previous post was 292, 400, 467 and 644 pixels. So in PL4 I resized the output so that all 4 lens combinations were 2048 x 2048 pixels. Here they are.
500mm, 700mm(500 + 1.4x), 800mm, 1120mm(800 + 1.4x):
500f7.1_4_2048.jpg 700f10_4_2048.jpg 800f11_4_2048.jpg 1120f16_4_2048.jpg
Now if you pop between these 4 back & forth I think you can get a fairer view of how they compare to each other when they all have to be up-res'd to a larger (equal) pixel size. I think this is the first time I've seen this kind of comparison, and I get a better feeling for how much IQ you can squeeze out of your photos with proper post usage which includes up-res'ing directly from the original raw files.


I've enjoyed the challenge of designing more detailed test charts so much that I've come up with another one that I hope will measure resolution even more accurately. I know that judging contrast is as important (or more) as resolution, so I'll also include some pretty foreign currency in hopes of giving us a better overall feel for IQ at a glance. That will be Part 4, next.
 
Last edited:

ColorBlindBat

EOS M50
CR Pro
Aug 30, 2018
42
12

usern4cr,​

Do you perhaps also have access to an EF 100-400 mk II and possibly EF 1.4 and 2.0 TCs?

If so and you have time, would it be possible to compare he EF with and without TCs against the RF combos you've tested?

TIA...
 

usern4cr

R5
CR Pro
Sep 2, 2018
1,077
1,682
Kentucky, USA

usern4cr,​

Do you perhaps also have access to an EF 100-400 mk II and possibly EF 1.4 and 2.0 TCs?

If so and you have time, would it be possible to compare he EF with and without TCs against the RF combos you've tested?

TIA...
Unfortunately, I only have some RF lenses + RF 1.4TC and the R5. If you wanted another RF lens tested, then I might have one.
 
Last edited:

dcm

It's not the gear. But it helps.
CR Pro
Apr 18, 2013
917
421
Colorado, USA
I seem to remember reading an article a while back about the sharpness not necessarily being consistent throughout the focus range, not just the zoom range. So the 800 at minimum focus distance may perform differently than infinity or in the middle of the range. Could be better, could be worse. I cannot remember the source. This is the challenge of designing tests to be equivalent when the parameters are different.

The RF 1.4x on the RF 800 I ordered just got more interesting.
 
  • Like
Reactions: usern4cr

usern4cr

R5
CR Pro
Sep 2, 2018
1,077
1,682
Kentucky, USA
I seem to remember reading an article a while back about the sharpness not necessarily being consistent throughout the focus range, not just the zoom range. So the 800 at minimum focus distance may perform differently than infinity or in the middle of the range. Could be better, could be worse. I cannot remember the source. This is the challenge of designing tests to be equivalent when the parameters are different.

The RF 1.4x on the RF 800 I ordered just got more interesting.
When I get my final chart done and run some tests, I'm hoping that I can run tests at the 6m, 14.85m, and an even longer one (somehow) for these lens combinations. That would help show better results for them at medium, far & very far distances. I assume most would consider 6m medium, as I don't consider it close. But the 800 f11 can't focus much closer and that's one of the considerable drawbacks of it.

I hope you enjoy your RF 800 and RF 1.4x. I really am impressed at the IQ of the RF 800 for the price - it's really a special-case bargain compared to the high prices of the RF L glass.
 

dcm

It's not the gear. But it helps.
CR Pro
Apr 18, 2013
917
421
Colorado, USA
When I get my final chart done and run some tests, I'm hoping that I can run tests at the 6m, 14.85m, and an even longer one (somehow) for these lens combinations. That would help show better results for them at medium, far & very far distances. I assume most would consider 6m medium, as I don't consider it close. But the 800 f11 can't focus much closer and that's one of the considerable drawbacks of it.

I hope you enjoy your RF 800 and RF 1.4x. I really am impressed at the IQ of the RF 800 for the price - it's really a special-case bargain compared to the high prices of the RF L glass.

Thanks. I'm getting too old to lug around one of the great whites. The EF 100-400L II is my limit these days.

Nice work. I look forward to seeing the results at other distances.
 
  • Like
Reactions: usern4cr

AlanF

Stay at home
CR Pro
Aug 16, 2012
8,033
9,574
Great work usern4CR!! It's far more detailed and better controlled than my measurements. Here is a brief summary of what I have learned from photos of charts, £10 notes and birds at various distances. First of all the disclaimer - my problem is embarras de riches: I have the R5 with the RF 100-500mm, EF 100-400mm II and 400mm DO II, on the one hand, and a Nikon 850mm + 500PF over the other shoulder. Canon lent me a demo RF 800mm for a week. I liked it a lot, it was so easy to hand hold and it was quite sharp at long distances and even worked with the 1.4xTC to give slightly more detail at very long distances in decent light.

3m from target
100-500>100-400+1.4xTC ~100-400, 800/11 won't focus. 100-500 is really good, not as good as 500PF, but better than the older lens plus TC
6m mfd of 800
100-500+1.4xTC slightly sharper than and as detailed as the 800/11, despite shorter focal (based on £10 target). 800mm DO II + 2xTC is a clear winner, along with 500PF + 1.4xTC.
20m
800mm DO II + 2xTC better contrast than 800/11 but similar levels of detail, 800/11+1.4xTC a bit more detail in good light. 100-500+1.4xTC not quite as good.
50m and bird targets.
800mm DO II + 2xTC best, 800/11 a bit behind and the 100-500+1.4xTC a bit further behind.

1. If I am going out on a hike or having to travel with restricted weight. The constraints are that I don't like carrying heavier lenses and I photo insects close up and birds at all distances, and will carry only one lens on a hike. No question, it's the RF 100-500 with the TC in my pocket as it's the best all-rounder and weight compromise. The 800/11 wouldn't work for me.
2. I am travelling where there could be low light and also birds mainly far away. It will be the 400mm DO II + TCs, and I'll put up with the weight. The mfd of 3.3m does allow me to photo dragonflies, butterflies and other insects.

The 800/11 does have a lot going for it, and if I had one, I could see myself using it on bright days when I was out birding and their mainly being distant as It would be a pleasure to handle and carry relative to the DO II and sharper than than the 100-500mm + TC at distances. And, I suppose a lightweight shorter zoom wouldn't be much of a burden for me. But, I also have Nikons and the 500/5.6 PF, which frankly is the best lightweight telephoto available - it outperforms all of my others at 3m for insects and with the 1.4xTC is at least as good as the 400mm DO II + 2xTC and weighs about a kg less, similar to the 100-500mm. Come on Canon, bring out a 500/5.6 DO that focusses down to 3m, weighs 1.5kg or less, and I'll pre-order and pay a premium!
 

usern4cr

R5
CR Pro
Sep 2, 2018
1,077
1,682
Kentucky, USA
Great work usern4CR!! It's far more detailed and better controlled than my measurements. Here is a brief summary of what I have learned from photos of charts, £10 notes and birds at various distances. First of all the disclaimer - my problem is embarras de riches: I have the R5 with the RF 100-500mm, EF 100-400mm II and 400mm DO II, on the one hand, and a Nikon 850mm + 500PF over the other shoulder. Canon lent me a demo RF 800mm for a week. I liked it a lot, it was so easy to hand hold and it was quite sharp at long distances and even worked with the 1.4xTC to give slightly more detail at very long distances in decent light.

3m from target
100-500>100-400+1.4xTC ~100-400, 800/11 won't focus. 100-500 is really good, not as good as 500PF, but better than the older lens plus TC
6m mfd of 800
100-500+1.4xTC slightly sharper than and as detailed as the 800/11, despite shorter focal (based on £10 target). 800mm DO II + 2xTC is a clear winner, along with 500PF + 1.4xTC.
20m
800mm DO II + 2xTC better contrast than 800/11 but similar levels of detail, 800/11+1.4xTC a bit more detail in good light. 100-500+1.4xTC not quite as good.
50m and bird targets.
800mm DO II + 2xTC best, 800/11 a bit behind and the 100-500+1.4xTC a bit further behind.

1. If I am going out on a hike or having to travel with restricted weight. The constraints are that I don't like carrying heavier lenses and I photo insects close up and birds at all distances, and will carry only one lens on a hike. No question, it's the RF 100-500 with the TC in my pocket as it's the best all-rounder and weight compromise. The 800/11 wouldn't work for me.
2. I am travelling where there could be low light and also birds mainly far away. It will be the 400mm DO II + TCs, and I'll put up with the weight. The mfd of 3.3m does allow me to photo dragonflies, butterflies and other insects.

The 800/11 does have a lot going for it, and if I had one, I could see myself using it on bright days when I was out birding and their mainly being distant as It would be a pleasure to handle and carry relative to the DO II and sharper than than the 100-500mm + TC at distances. And, I suppose a lightweight shorter zoom wouldn't be much of a burden for me. But, I also have Nikons and the 500/5.6 PF, which frankly is the best lightweight telephoto available - it outperforms all of my others at 3m for insects and with the 1.4xTC is at least as good as the 400mm DO II + 2xTC and weighs about a kg less, similar to the 100-500mm. Come on Canon, bring out a 500/5.6 DO that focusses down to 3m, weighs 1.5kg or less, and I'll pre-order and pay a premium!
Great post, AlanF! I hope to one day have a long RF superTele like what you've asked Canon to come out with: a 500/5.6 DO with shorter MFD and lighter weight! If they do hear from users like you and come out with one, what price range would you expect it to be at?
 
  • Like
Reactions: pj1974 and AlanF

AlanF

Stay at home
CR Pro
Aug 16, 2012
8,033
9,574
Great post, AlanF! I hope to one day have a long RF superTele like what you've asked Canon to come out with: a 500/5.6 DO with shorter MFD and lighter weight! If they do hear from users like you and come out with one, what price range would you expect it to be at?
Competitive with Nikon at $3500 or so. A lens of that size is so versatile - put a 2xTC on it and you have a 1000mm f/11.
 

usern4cr

R5
CR Pro
Sep 2, 2018
1,077
1,682
Kentucky, USA
Competitive with Nikon at $3500 or so. A lens of that size is so versatile - put a 2xTC on it and you have a 1000mm f/11.
That'd be a great price for the higher IQ/shorter MFD/lighter weight!

Since the RF 100-500 already hits 500 f7.1, do you think it might be a better to offer a 600mm f6.7 or so with similar MFD and weight?
That might make me want to get it even more. Just a thought?

I assume you think the RF 2x TC will be a high enough IQ with it to make it worthwhile with the new lenses like that?
Also, do you think the current RF 1.4x and 2x TC's will be upgraded in the future, or will they be the only native RF TC's for many years to come?
 

Bdbtoys

R5
CR Pro
Jul 16, 2020
350
259
Also, do you think the current RF 1.4x and 2x TC's will be upgraded in the future, or will they be the only native RF TC's for many years to come?

I'm hoping the 1x/1.5x/2x on any lens sees the light of day soon (see link below).

Until then, I'm using the current tc's on the 100-500 when I need the extra reach.
 
  • Like
Reactions: usern4cr

AlanF

Stay at home
CR Pro
Aug 16, 2012
8,033
9,574
That'd be a great price for the higher IQ/shorter MFD/lighter weight!

Since the RF 100-500 already hits 500 f7.1, do you think it might be a better to offer a 600mm f6.7 or so with similar MFD and weight?
That might make me want to get it even more. Just a thought?

I assume you think the RF 2x TC will be a high enough IQ with it to make it worthwhile with the new lenses like that?
Also, do you think the current RF 1.4x and 2x TC's will be upgraded in the future, or will they be the only native RF TC's for many years to come?
400/4.5 would be interesting. Same size front element but gives a wider field of view and faster shutter speeds but expands to 560/6.3 and 800/9 with 1.4 and 2xTCs. I like having the wider fov for fast birds in flight that get close and fast shutter speeds.
 

usern4cr

R5
CR Pro
Sep 2, 2018
1,077
1,682
Kentucky, USA
*** Part 4 ***

Well, the good news is that I did finish the updated test chart I previously mentioned. The bad news is that after I finished it, I thought that my design kept the lower resolution parts of the chart too far away from the center where I was to aim the test shots. So (doh!) I decided to create (yet again) another newer test chart.

I'll enclose a cropped-in portion of the test chart I decided not to use. It's hand-held, and I don't have a macro lens, so the sharpness could be better. But it will give you an idea of what that chart would have been:
A03_1240_2k90%.jpg


There are a few things that I tried to change in this chart. One is that my laser printer can print fairly sharp lines at maximum resolution (thinnest & closet lines) when it prints them straight up-down or left-right. When printed on any angle it will make the lines much thicker as the pixels are too big (relative to the line spacing) so the white space between lines starts to disappear. So I printed the chart with the lines up-down & left-right only, and for the chart "wedges" that are on an angle I cut out the non-angled wedges and taped then onto the final paper (crude, but effective). This ensured that I got the maximum accuracy in my printed lines when printed on any angle. Only later, upon closer inspection, did I notice that some the the wedges didn't print quite as good as others, as I think my last printer is getting low on toner. A good "shake" of the toner module helps to fix this problem in the short run, but I'm sure it won't last too long before needing a replacement.

Another thing is the addition of the Swedish bank notes. They have an amazing amount of small detail in them if you look with a magnifying glass (far more detail than can be seen in this image). And the images are cute and with a story behind them.

The last thing is that I always wondered why my previous test charts had the smallest lines darker in some areas than others, and often had some lines closer together than others within the same resolution chart. I assumed there's nothing to be done about it, until one day the programmer in me decided to copy the same group of charts onto an area nearby, but to alter the vertical spacing by and extra 1 dot. Then I copied both of those chart groups onto a nearby area while altering the horizontal spacing by an extra 1 dot. This would make the placement of the chart groups different in the even/odd dot positions. Maybe that would tell me something? The result was shocking (well, to me that is). Just changing from even to odd would change whether the thinnest lines were thick or thin, both in horizontal and vertical directions. I repeated this test on many of the various areas of the 8 x 11.5 page to see what would happen, and the same effect happened at all locations.

So, knowing this issue, I made new charts and made sure that the lines were positioned on the even or odd position needed for the thinnest lines. While the previous chart had a line pair every 6, 7, 8, 9, ... lines, I had to reduce this to 6, 8, 10, ... lines so that the lines could not fall into the wrong even/odd positions. The result is that the most detailed lines no longer had the wrong even/odd problem, and that was fixed in the above chart (with Swedish bank notes).

I have made the new test chart in the original style where all chart #'s (from 9 to 80) are in a tight rectangle, and I've made a copy to paste with a 1 degree tilt left and another with a 1 degree tilt right. So when the camera & tripod are positioned so the middle chart is as close to level as possible, the other charts will be slight tilted. This will ensure that you will have a near perfectly aligned chart in one of the 3, and any slight tilt will result in a visible sharp to blurry to sharp to blurry... pattern when at maximum resolved resolution. Since I already taped up the Swedish notes, I'll use a single English note we had in the new chart. But being used by us a couple years back, it's pretty wrinkled up. So I'm going to get a new crisp (hopefully) one this Monday (it's a drive to get it). Then I can take photos and see what results I get. But in the meantime, I'll make a handheld photo of the newest group of charts with copies of it on even/odd horizontal & vertial positions to show you what the weird effect my printer does (hint: the bottom right group is in "correct" even/odd position:
A03_1239_2k90%.jpg


So, again, I hope to have a better chart and results soon for you.
 

SteveC

R5
CR Pro
Sep 3, 2019
2,244
2,116
*** Part 4 ***

Well, the good news is that I did finish the updated test chart I previously mentioned. The bad news is that after I finished it, I thought that my design kept the lower resolution parts of the chart too far away from the center where I was to aim the test shots. So (doh!) I decided to create (yet again) another newer test chart.

I'll enclose a cropped-in portion of the test chart I decided not to use. It's hand-held, and I don't have a macro lens, so the sharpness could be better. But it will give you an idea of what that chart would have been:
View attachment 196510

There are a few things that I tried to change in this chart. One is that my laser printer can print fairly sharp lines at maximum resolution (thinnest & closet lines) when it prints them straight up-down or left-right. When printed on any angle it will make the lines much thicker as the pixels are too big (relative to the line spacing) so the white space between lines starts to disappear. So I printed the chart with the lines up-down & left-right only, and for the chart "wedges" that are on an angle I cut out the non-angled wedges and taped then onto the final paper (crude, but effective). This ensured that I got the maximum accuracy in my printed lines when printed on any angle. Only later, upon closer inspection, did I notice that some the the wedges didn't print quite as good as others, as I think my last printer is getting low on toner. A good "shake" of the toner module helps to fix this problem in the short run, but I'm sure it won't last too long before needing a replacement.

Another thing is the addition of the Swedish bank notes. They have an amazing amount of small detail in them if you look with a magnifying glass (far more detail than can be seen in this image). And the images are cute and with a story behind them.

The last thing is that I always wondered why my previous test charts had the smallest lines darker in some areas than others, and often had some lines closer together than others within the same resolution chart. I assumed there's nothing to be done about it, until one day the programmer in me decided to copy the same group of charts onto an area nearby, but to alter the vertical spacing by and extra 1 dot. Then I copied both of those chart groups onto a nearby area while altering the horizontal spacing by an extra 1 dot. This would make the placement of the chart groups different in the even/odd dot positions. Maybe that would tell me something? The result was shocking (well, to me that is). Just changing from even to odd would change whether the thinnest lines were thick or thin, both in horizontal and vertical directions. I repeated this test on many of the various areas of the 8 x 11.5 page to see what would happen, and the same effect happened at all locations.

So, knowing this issue, I made new charts and made sure that the lines were positioned on the even or odd position needed for the thinnest lines. While the previous chart had a line pair every 6, 7, 8, 9, ... lines, I had to reduce this to 6, 8, 10, ... lines so that the lines could not fall into the wrong even/odd positions. The result is that the most detailed lines no longer had the wrong even/odd problem, and that was fixed in the above chart (with Swedish bank notes).

I have made the new test chart in the original style where all chart #'s (from 9 to 80) are in a tight rectangle, and I've made a copy to paste with a 1 degree tilt left and another with a 1 degree tilt right. So when the camera & tripod are positioned so the middle chart is as close to level as possible, the other charts will be slight tilted. This will ensure that you will have a near perfectly aligned chart in one of the 3, and any slight tilt will result in a visible sharp to blurry to sharp to blurry... pattern when at maximum resolved resolution. Since I already taped up the Swedish notes, I'll use a single English note we had in the new chart. But being used by us a couple years back, it's pretty wrinkled up. So I'm going to get a new crisp (hopefully) one this Monday (it's a drive to get it). Then I can take photos and see what results I get. But in the meantime, I'll make a handheld photo of the newest group of charts with copies of it on even/odd horizontal & vertial positions to show you what the weird effect my printer does (hint: the bottom right group is in "correct" even/odd position: View attachment 196511

So, again, I hope to have a better chart and results soon for you.
I'm pretty sure I spent that money once...about thirty years ago. Though I could be mistaken as I don't recall that closeup of the face on the back of the note.
 
  • Like
Reactions: usern4cr

usern4cr

R5
CR Pro
Sep 2, 2018
1,077
1,682
Kentucky, USA
I'm pretty sure I spent that money once...about thirty years ago. Though I could be mistaken as I don't recall that closeup of the face on the back of the note.
The Swedish money is really beautiful. The lower note is for the author of the "Pippi Longstockings" series of books that many have come to love since childhood. They have nice art on both sides of them, with descriptions, and embedded in them are super-small resolution letters and text needing a strong magnifying glass to see.

These notes may not be long for this world, as Sweden is leading a forced change where they're trying to get rid of cash altogether. We found this out when trying to pay for gas and they only took credit cards, and it's happening in more places all the time. By eliminating cash, they're trying to eliminate the black market that doesn't pay taxes, but they're replacing cash with a computerized system that in addition to ensuring taxes are paid can also track your every movement and purchase, instead of just allowing "anonymous cash cards" that are anonymous but still pay taxes.
 

usern4cr

R5
CR Pro
Sep 2, 2018
1,077
1,682
Kentucky, USA
*** Part 5a ***

Well, I got the British 5 Pound note, which was slightly crisper than the old one I had.
But then I got a call that my local art gallery just asked me to join them on their board, and that they'd like me to submit 8 of my hung photo prints for their upcoming exhibit through September or October, with April 13 as the hanging date. (Woo-hoo!)
I've got a photo printer on order and intended to print them on (eventually), but it's on back order. So now I have to go through my photos to find the best 8 and then find a printer to print them. That took (and continues to take) a while.
But I decided to take the time now to run some test photos with the new (simpler) lens chart I made.
This one's so fancy (ha!) that I just taped it to the wall on 1 side of the house, and took photos from the furthest point away from it (again), which was about 14.9 meters away.

Here's what the entire view was for the following with my R5.
I took shots at 1/60" and 1/125" and chose which I preferred.
Other info: EFCS, raw (uncompressed), AF, wired remote, IS enabled
Processed in DXO PL4, standard settings, white & brightness balanced to get all as close as possible, deep prime output (2K longest side, 95% jpg)
Left-to-right (wrapping to next line) are the following:
RF 100-500mm f4.5-7.1L @ 500mm, f7.1, 1/60", ISO 320
ditto + RF 1.4x TC, so 700mm, f10, 1/60", ISO 800
RF 800mm f11 @ 1/60", ISO 1000
ditto + RF 1.4x TC, so 1120mm, f16, 1/125", ISO 4000

A03_1254_M_best2k95%.jpg A03_1266_M_best2k95%.jpg A03_1280_M_best2k95%.jpg A03_1275_M_best2k95%.jpg
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: AlanF
<-- start Taboola -->