Sony A9 has random banding issues at ISO 100?!

[ahsanford]

Winces for folks who ponied up $4,500 for a $10,000 expectation of performance:

https://petapixel.com/2017/06/27/uh-oh-sony-a9-banding-issue-report-surfaces/

Haven't played the video yet, but I going to start coughing [electronic shutter!] shortly. (Good guess?)

- A

 

[neuroanatomist]

FPN and poor low ISO DR? Gonna be some butthurt DRones out there...

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

Something is very wrong. This is not something you have to hunt for, big broad and weird bands where their should be none. It could be a sensor issue, but only appearing on 2% of the images means its likely a firmware thing that can be fixed.

 

[SecureGSM]

most likely electronic shutter it is.

the following comment by TomDibble makes sense ( to me) :

https://petapixel.com/2017/06/27/uh-oh-sony-a9-banding-issue-report-surfaces/#comment-3388866923

it starts with:
"... My hypothesis: The issue is purely a result of the electronic shutter..." and so on and so forth.

Winces for folks who ponied up $4,000 for a $10,000 expectation of performance:

https://petapixel.com/2017/06/27/uh-oh-sony-a9-banding-issue-report-surfaces/

Haven't played the video yet, but I going to start coughing [electronic shutter!] shortly. (Good guess?)

- A

 

[hgraf]

Something is very wrong. This is not something you have to hunt for, big broad and weird bands where their should be none. It could be a sensor issue, but only appearing on 2% of the images means its likely a firmware thing that can be fixed.

Could artificial lighting be a possible reason? High frequency rates on modern artificial lighting?

 

[Jack Douglas]

I just watched Tony referring to the Sony issues as negligible and describing 1DX2 and D5 as dinosaurs. He absolutely feels the Sony criticism is completely unfair. So, what's up; is this sour grapes by Canon users.

Jack

 

[hgraf]

I just watched Tony referring to the Sony issues as negligible and describing 1DX2 and D5 as dinosaurs. He absolutely feels the Sony criticism is completely unfair. So, what's up; is this sour grapes by Canon users.

Jack

The reason Tony felt that way was the examples he saw of the problem were negligible, i.e. very very hard to notice without pixel peeping.

The images that Fro posted OTOH are GLARINGLY obviously flawed, it is FAR worse then the images Tony was looking at.

That said, Tony most certainly seems to be a little friendlier to Sony then most, IMHO. Whether that's fair or not is for you to decide.

 

[Sporgon]

To quote from Gilbert and Sullivan's Pirates of Penzance -

"Oh horrible ! Catastrophe appalling ! And so farewell"

 

[hne]

Can't find the article but I remember seeing an image taken with an A9, of a motorbike front wheel that had jagged edges on the spokes. I think it was related to the A9 having some weird readout pattern using multiple 12-bit ADCs in groups on slower speeds to gain precision but using them in parallel in faster speeds to avoid rolling shutter. Seems like it is reading in groups of 12 rows:
http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/sony-a9-electronic-shutter-operation-single-shot/

That's 333 bands horizontally across the sensor, not too far off from the banding size shown in that video. If that sports venue is lit by HF fluorecent at 30kHz and the side line ads are LED displays driven at a similar PWM frequency, I'm not surprised the least of this banding.

Some people are going to get a lot of hurt feelings. Some people are going to troll internet forums telling everyone that isn't listening that CaNikon is way behind Sony anyway since none of them have a camera that has 1/32000s shutter, irrespective of the fact that it can't be used with flash, can't be used with flashing light, it is creating banding and FPN and it limits DR to 12 bits.

 

[Besisika]

I just watched Tony referring to the Sony issues as negligible and describing 1DX2 and D5 as dinosaurs. He absolutely feels the Sony criticism is completely unfair. So, what's up; is this sour grapes by Canon users.

Jack

My opinion yes and no.
Tony is a gadget guy. He loves little features from the future that makes life easier. He is not a pixel peeper (per se). As far as he is concerned he would put a feature in 1DX II so that pictures can be uploaded to Instagram instantaneously as you take it. If you are a gadget guy then yes it is a sour grapes by Canon users.

The Fro, on the other hand, is more of a conservative guy and you will find what you are looking for if you look hard enough. So the answer is no, it is not a sour grapes by Canon users. The weaknesses are there for real.

It depends in which camp you are.
I am with Canon because I value reliability and that 1DX II is.
I need those little gadgets too, but on a smaller camera and that's why I was disappointed with the 6D II.
I see no reason for any camera to be better than the 1DX II and it is a workhorse I can rely on any time, yet Canon should be a little more flexible and deliver a camera to complement the weakness of the 1DX II and I expected the 6D II to be that camera = a gadget-full full frame little camera. It is like you married a faithful woman and yet you still watch adult pictures when she is not looking.

 

[ahsanford]

Something is very wrong. This is not something you have to hunt for, big broad and weird bands where their should be none. It could be a sensor issue, but only appearing on 2% of the images means its likely a firmware thing that can be fixed.

I believe JP in the video did call out the 20 fps electronic shutter being used... :

- A

 

[ahsanford]

I just watched Tony referring to the Sony issues as negligible and describing 1DX2 and D5 as dinosaurs. He absolutely feels the Sony criticism is completely unfair. So, what's up; is this sour grapes by Canon users.

Jack

Sour grapes? Entirely possible, but it depends on which way Sony is letting its customers down with the A9 that you are referring to:

1) Overheating? Agree with you -- it looks like a rare issue from what I've read.

2) Not working well with adapted Canon big whites? More a painful reality than a let-down, but it's a limiting pain point for some photographers. Some are heavily invested in EF financially, and the feedback on the adapted AF performance is not very reassuring.

3) The sensor not being as world class as the A7 sensors, less base ISO DR, etc? Not a show stopper -- you're probably not shooting landscapes with it, and this thing does fine at higher ISOs from what I've read.

4) An electronic shutter problem having a legitimate problem that forces you to drop your $4500 20 fps action rig down to the mechanical shutter limited to 5 fps? That is potentially a DOA send it back sort of issue -- there's nothing sour grapes about it.

What we don't know with #4 definitively is whether this is a truly random bug or issue (that is either firmware correctible or lot-specifically recallable) or a reality of using an electronic shutter in certain conditions, under certain lighting, etc. This issue -- like any issue with any product -- needs to be followed up, reproduced, and the quality folks at Sony need to crack out their Ishikawas and weed out the culprit.

I am not saying the sky is falling for the A9. Not at all. But if there is an electronic shutter issue with a camera such that its sexiest spec'd feature crumbles to dust without it, A9 could certainly be in trouble.

- A

 

[Jack Douglas]

After follow 6D2 threads for a while, what a breath of fresh air to hear intelligent replies!!!

One way or tother this camera is certainly pointing to what is coming, maybe sooner than later. It reminds me of my following the news on new migraine therapies. Some very expensive drugs are just now showing up that are potentially game changing.

Now, about the faithful wife analogy ........ :-\ Good for a laugh never the less.

Must be a very nerve wracking time for Sony, like high stakes gambling.

Jack

 

[Jack Douglas]

To quote from Gilbert and Sullivan's Pirates of Penzance -

"Oh horrible ! Catastrophe appalling ! And so farewell"

As a retired EE this is a very interesting/enlightening treatment. Thanks very much for posting the link!

Jack

 

[Jack Douglas]

Wow, http://blog.kasson.com/ now there is a guy who is both talented and sharp doing his bit to contribute positively to photography.

Five years ago getting seriously back into photography with an entry crop Nikon camera and then after a year stepping up to the 6D and L glass and now entering the realm of the 1DX2 ...

There are days when I am just totally overwhelmed by all there is to know/sort out. I'm in awe of those who have most of it sorted out and really appreciate the help/education I'm receiving free via CR (although it can be a bit of a time waster). Can't thank the positive CR contributors enough.

Jack

 

[peterzuehlke]

I got a couple of weird shots out of my Sony a6500 shooting at a jazz performance with silent shutter. (the reason I got the camera) first shot was shot at a 1/200 and I saw the bands in the evf so I set the shutter down to 1/160 and no problem. Have no idea what was going on but have often had to change shutter speed when shooting video under LED stage lights, so I thought it was a similar issue. (the images are quite different due to not processing the first shot until now, but i didn't notice a change in the lighting between the shots)

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

Shooting at too high a shutter speed with artificial lighting can indeed cause strange artifacts and colors. That is a user issue, not a camera issue. Slower shutter usually fixes the issue. Newer models detect light flickering and attempt to synchronize with the flicker to eliminate or reduce the effect.

 

[Viggo]

Shooting at too high a shutter speed with artificial lighting can indeed cause strange artifacts and colors. That is a user issue, not a camera issue. Slower shutter usually fixes the issue. Newer models detect light flickering and attempt to synchronize with the flicker to eliminate or reduce the effect.

It's a different issue with uneven light like fluorescent (which the anti flickering works great with) and these stripes.

 

[aceflibble]

No, it's the same type of issue, it just happens to manifest in a visually different way with different types of lighting fixture.

 

[Jack Douglas]

No, it's the same type of issue, it just happens to manifest in a visually different way with different types of lighting fixture.

Semantics, same or similar; I'd tend to agree. We need someone with the physics background in light sources to detail how what's on the market works and then with the detailed operation of the shutter it should be possible to determine how the interaction takes place. I'm guessing that it's not going to be a simple fix.

Meanwhile it's not really much different than loosing a % of shots due to OOF or whatever. No camera is perfect.

Jack