The Lumia 1020...final death blow to the Point and Shoot?

[jrista]

I just read some of the reviews on the Lumia 1020. I have to say, from a photography standpoint, I am REALLY impressed. It finally brings the true PureView 808's 41mp sensor, the 6-element Zeiss lens from the 925, and full Xenon flash to a phone pretty much built for photography. Their pro photo software looks rather nice, giving you complete control over all the standard aspects of exposure (i.e. want to do a long exposure and blur people walking by...you can). I love the fact that it has the extended battery "grip" accessory, too.

http://www.nokia.com/global/products/phone/lumia1020


So, does this mark the true end of the point and shoot, and the beginning of full blown photography phones with all the features we *photographers* have come to expect from an actual camera? To date, phone cameras have been geared more towards the instagrammer crowd...the Lumia 1020 seems to be positioned more for pro photographers who want something simpler, but still just as capable, for a handy every-moment alternative to a DSLR.

Is it only me who thinks this?

 

[northbyten]

I definitely think so.

I use my Nokia 920 more often than my Canon, I prefer the colours and levels out of the box.

I think if Nokia continues on this path, all major camera manufacturers are going to have a hard time outpacing them.

I've gone through the sample photos of the 1020 on flickr and I cannot believe it especially at it's price.

I'm actually surprised that the closest thing to this is the Samsung Galaxy NX.

 

[jrista]

I definitely think so.

I use my Nokia 920 more often than my Canon, I prefer the colours and levels out of the box.

I think if Nokia continues on this path, all major camera manufacturers are going to have a hard time outpacing them.

I've gone through the sample photos of the 1020 on flickr and I cannot believe it especially at it's price.

I'm actually surprised that the closest thing to this is the Samsung Galaxy NX.

Thanks for the reply. I guess not many Canon users really care about the possibilities of something like Nokia's Lumia line.

Anyway, I agree about color...however I think that is more the screen on the Lumias than anything else. Once I import, the color actually looks a bit too saturated, where as when I view them on my phone (which, ironically, is a WAY better screen than even my Apple CinemaDisplay), they look so fantastic.

I still have a little over a year on my 920 contract, so I probably won't be getting a 1020 (or at least, not right away). I am quite intrigued by it, though...and will probably end up with the 1020, or whatever follows it, when my current contract period is up.

 

[expatinasia]

I am very interested in camera phones. If the Lumia 1020 was anything but Nokia, I might even consider buying it, but alas it is not.

Samsung recently launched the Zoom which has not had the best of reviews, and Sony are expected to launch the Xperia i1 Honami - a 20MP smartphone with Qualcomm Snapdragon 800 processor to take on the Samsung and Nokia camera / phone.

If Sony could add a phone to something as capable as the RX100-II I would definitely buy it. In fact if Canon could team up with a phone maker and create something as good as the RX100-II (or even better) but with smartphone functionality and similar Canon menu system to what is in the DSLRs for the camera, then I would buy that without a doubt.

I think we are still some way from the death of the p&s but we seem to be heading in that general direction. This could also affect the DSLR market as the camera phones get better and better, people will eventually grow tired of lugging the weight, extra size and attachments around.

Nokia, needs to do some serious PR and image building in my opinion, as the brand has almost 0% appeal for me.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

There is little doubt that camera phones are hurting the market for P&S cameras, but they are far from dead.

So far this year, they have shipped 434 Billion Yen worth this year. You know the old saying, A billion here .. A billion there ...

http://www.cipa.jp/english/data/pdf/d-201305_e.pdf

Of course, they have sold 35.7 billion worth of mirrorless, so we may see 10% of the P%S value by next year.

 

[jrista]

I am very interested in camera phones. If the Lumia 1020 was anything but Nokia, I might even consider buying it, but alas it is not.

Samsung recently launched the Zoom which has not had the best of reviews, and Sony are expected to launch the Xperia i1 Honami - a 20MP smartphone with Qualcomm Snapdragon 800 processor to take on the Samsung and Nokia camera / phone.

If Sony could add a phone to something as capable as the RX100-II I would definitely buy it. In fact if Canon could team up with a phone maker and create something as good as the RX100-II (or even better) but with smartphone functionality and similar Canon menu system to what is in the DSLRs for the camera, then I would buy that without a doubt.

I think we are still some way from the death of the p&s but we seem to be heading in that general direction. This could also affect the DSLR market as the camera phones get better and better, people will eventually grow tired of lugging the weight, extra size and attachments around.

Nokia, needs to do some serious PR and image building in my opinion, as the brand has almost 0% appeal for me.

What do you have against Nokia? You clearly seem to like the Lumia 1020...so what exactly has Nokia done wrong there? Seems they have succeeded WITHOUT marketing to me. If you simply don't like the name, well I guess I don't consider that grounds not to buy something. If the technology is excellent, the technology is excellent. It doesn't really matter how the company markets, or who's name is on it. I think your preventing yourself from getting a phenomenal phone with the best camera on the market just because of some name hate. Nokia's PAST problem was that they were unprepared for the onslaught of Apple and the iPhone...however...so was everyone else! Lumia is an excellent brand, with excellent features and competitiveness. It only seems to get better as time goes on. If you have ever actually used one, your dislike of the Nokia name would disappear in a heartbeat.

Remember the old saying? "The best marketing is when you don't have to."

 

[expatinasia]

What do you have against Nokia? You clearly seem to like the Lumia 1020...so what exactly has Nokia done wrong there? Seems they have succeeded WITHOUT marketing to me. If you simply don't like the name, well I guess I don't consider that grounds not to buy something. If the technology is excellent, the technology is excellent. It doesn't really matter how the company markets, or who's name is on it. I think your preventing yourself from getting a phenomenal phone with the best camera on the market just because of some name hate. Nokia's PAST problem was that they were unprepared for the onslaught of Apple and the iPhone...however...so was everyone else! Lumia is an excellent brand, with excellent features and competitiveness. It only seems to get better as time goes on. If you have ever actually used one, your dislike of the Nokia name would disappear in a heartbeat. Remember the old saying? "The best marketing is when you don't have to."

jrista, your caps lock kept getting stuck in that post!

I do not dislike Nokia, nor do I like Nokia, and that is their problem - at least from my perspective. And that is why I say that in my opinion Nokia really needs to do something about its brand image.

For example, I like Mercedes and BMW, and while I respect Jaguar I would, rightly or wrongly, probably prefer the two German brands over a Jag.

The great thing about technology, and innovation is that I can applaud Nokia, admire what they have brought to market, and now eagerly await what the response from Sony (in particular) and Samsung is going to be. I am in no rush, my life will not change no matter how great a camera/phone is, and if I get one today, or in a year's time, it really does not matter. We are still in early days of the true camera/phone so things are only going to get better, which is great for us - the consumer.

Oh and btw - the rumour on the Honami is that it will be able to record up to around 4000x2000 in video clips (yep, 4K). That and the Snapdragon 800 processor, and the rumoured 1/1.6-inch sensor make me salivate! Not bad for a phone!

 

[jrista]

What do you have against Nokia? You clearly seem to like the Lumia 1020...so what exactly has Nokia done wrong there? Seems they have succeeded WITHOUT marketing to me. If you simply don't like the name, well I guess I don't consider that grounds not to buy something. If the technology is excellent, the technology is excellent. It doesn't really matter how the company markets, or who's name is on it. I think your preventing yourself from getting a phenomenal phone with the best camera on the market just because of some name hate. Nokia's PAST problem was that they were unprepared for the onslaught of Apple and the iPhone...however...so was everyone else! Lumia is an excellent brand, with excellent features and competitiveness. It only seems to get better as time goes on. If you have ever actually used one, your dislike of the Nokia name would disappear in a heartbeat. Remember the old saying? "The best marketing is when you don't have to."

jrista, your caps lock kept getting stuck in that post!

Hmm...that usually means the entire thing is CAPS. Only two words of my post were caps, and quite explicitly so. Strong difference between a stuck caps key and careful, intentful use...

I do not dislike Nokia, nor do I like Nokia, and that is their problem - at least from my perspective. And that is why I say that in my opinion Nokia really needs to do something about its brand image.

For example, I like Mercedes and BMW, and while I respect Jaguar I would, rightly or wrongly, probably prefer the two German brands over a Jag.

The great thing about technology, and innovation is that I can applaud Nokia, admire what they have brought to market, and now eagerly await what the response from Sony (in particular) and Samsung is going to be. I am in no rush, my life will not change no matter how great a camera/phone is, and if I get one today, or in a year's time, it really does not matter. We are still in early days of the true camera/phone so things are only going to get better, which is great for us - the consumer.

Oh and btw - the rumour on the Honami is that it will be able to record up to around 4000x2000 in video clips (yep, 4K). That and the Snapdragon 800 processor, and the rumoured 1/1.6-inch sensor make me salivate! Not bad for a phone!

I think the car analogy is flawed. You buy a car with the intention of owning it for years, even a decade. You expect the company to build them to a specific level of quality such that they will last for that duration of time. You also expect the company to stand by their workmanship over the lifetime of any warranty, provide high quality replacement parts, etc.

Comparing a smartphone with a car is a little ludicrous. You generally own a smart phone for two years at most. The expectations regarding long-term parts support...well, they generally aren't there, with one exception maybe being replacement of cracked screens. Even in that respect, the cheapest and more reliable approach is to use a third party (just look into the statistics on how often iPhone screen replacements end up getting broken again, needing replacement multiple times.) In two years time on average, you'll probably be upgrading your smartphone to the next great thing. I don't think that there is ANY kind of "We stand by our product" that even resembles a corner of a shadow of what you get from BMW or Mercedes from Samsung or Sony when it comes to their phones.

So, again...I think your short changing yourself by excluding Lumia as an option for the simple reason that Nokia is the manufacturer. Personally, having owned a wide number of phones over the years, including HTC, Samsung, Nokia, as well as several iPhones, I have to say I am particularly happy with the build quality, software quality, and reliability of the Lumia 920 I have. It feels solidly built, stronger than all the iPhones I've owned, and far more sturdy than any Samsung phone (they all feel like featherweight plastic that will shatter if touched by a pin). The only other phone I've owned that felt as solidly built as the Nokia was the HTC, however it had a number of other detractors that turned me off of it (their software isn't that great), and it was as heavy as my 920 while being smaller in form factor (so, sturdy, but overly so).

I wouldn't write off the Lumia line of phones simply because it's Nokia. They are extremely well built, sleek and aesthetic in design, the screens are phenomenal (truly...one of the key reasons I picked the 920 was its screen...higher pixel density than the Apple Retina, better microcontrast...simply beautiful) and, back to the original purpose of this thread....their cameras are phenomenal! ;D

 

[expatinasia]

jrista - I am not going to buy a Nokia as I do not desire a Nokia. It is a brand that makes me yawn, actually it does not even do that - I pass it in Duty Free and rarely even stop. I do not know why that is, but there you go. If the Lumia 1020 was on Android then maybe, but it is not.

I am sure we both agree that there are exciting times ahead for the camera/phone. Whether it is Sony (an ex-user), Samsung (a current user) or some other manufacturer I really do not care.

When they make camera phones that are as capable as the RX100-II or even the RX1 then I will take note.

 

[RLPhoto]

Nope. My g15 has a hot-shoe.

 

[jrista]

jrista - I am not going to buy a Nokia as I do not desire a Nokia. It is a brand that makes me yawn, actually it does not even do that - I pass it in Duty Free and rarely even stop. I do not know why that is, but there you go. If the Lumia 1020 was on Android then maybe, but it is not.

I am sure we both agree that there are exciting times ahead for the camera/phone. Whether it is Sony (an ex-user), Samsung (a current user) or some other manufacturer I really do not care.

When they make camera phones that are as capable as the RX100-II or even the RX1 then I will take note.

Well, to each his own, I guess. Like I said, I think your short changing yourself, to restrict yourself to a specific phone OS and not even "look" simply because of a company name. If your content to wait until Samsung produces something similar (which I suspect should happen sooner or later), I'm sure there will be a product out there that suits you.

In the mean time, I'm happily considering a Lumia 1020 for myself. I have held off on buying a more portable camera because I wanted something that would be easy to always carry around with me, without losing out on quality. I can't think of a better way to do that than to embed a 41mp camera (that actually gives you the option of taking full 41mp photos when using pro photog mode) into my phone...I already always have my phone on me, so that neatly solves the problem in its entirety right there.

 

[DanielW]

I guess I'd like to keep things separated while batteries have just enough juice for one day on those huge screen phones. I'd rather shoot as much as I like, use the flash as much as I like, without having to think if I can get through the day. (These things change rather quickly, though.)

 

[distant.star]

.
I don't know anything about this, but I keep hearing the point & shoot segment is shrinking due to smart phones having good cameras that do stills and video. Makes sense to me given how most people react to photography.

The issue seems more redundancy than perceived camera quality or versatility. I don't think people buy smart phones for their cameras although they may play some role in deciding which specific smart phone to buy -- phone vs phone, not phone vs point & shoot camera. The smart phone is the desirable object so it gets acquired. And once you have it you pay $1000 or more per year to operate it. Most folks aren't committed enough to photography to add more expense with a dedicated small camera. Why buy a separate thing if it only does what the phone will do? The photographer community can argue better image quality, increased versatility, etc., but most people don't care that much. The phone gets a picture -- instantly they can send it electronically to friends & family. Even a point & shoot with WIFI is going to be dependent on a WIFI connection so it may not be instant gratification. If they want a print they can go to Walgreen's or CVS and get one for five or 10 cents. Hell, even the cheapie little "portrait studios" at Walmart and Sears are shutting down.

For several reasons, photography one of them, I used to carry a small compass. Now I have one in my smart phone so I'm not buying a compass anymore. Redundancy. There was a time I carried a small reference book with lots of photography info -- DOF guides, ASA (ISO) info, flash guides, a gray card, etc. I don't consider buying such guides today because all that, and much more, is in my phone (well, not the gray card, I guess!). Redundancy. I see and hear a trend toward younger people not using wristwatches -- their phones give the correct time. Redundancy. I've even stopped wearing a wristwatch most of the time. I also often carried a stopwatch, especially for sport events -- my phone does that now. Redundancy. The greatest stopwatch/watch/compass/etc. ever made for a smart phone has no influence on whether I buy any of those objects individually. They get the job done in the phone, and that's all I care about.

Anecdotally, I just don't see people using point & shoot cameras anymore. I see either smart phones or bridge/DSLR cameras.

 

[candyman]

@distant.star
+1 agree with your observation

 

[Jay Khaos]

I feel like the P&S market is already dead.. since the Galaxy's and iphone's 8mp cameras. That could just be my opinion. Not saying people won't buy them... because I DO feel like people will continue to buy dedicated P&S cameras simply because they feel like they need a camera.... or because it's a closer step to "being a photographer". And once you get to the more decent ones, you're approaching the price and size of a dslr anyway.

But unlike 5-10 years ago, I dont think owning a P&S gives you a shred of credibility. In my opinion, the gap between what I can do with my iphone and DSLR isn't filled with a P&S. Even the fancy SLR-shaped ones with big lenses.

 

[itsnotmeyouknow]

.
I don't know anything about this, but I keep hearing the point & shoot segment is shrinking due to smart phones having good cameras that do stills and video. Makes sense to me given how most people react to photography.

The issue seems more redundancy than perceived camera quality or versatility. I don't think people buy smart phones for their cameras although they may play some role in deciding which specific smart phone to buy -- phone vs phone, not phone vs point & shoot camera. The smart phone is the desirable object so it gets acquired. And once you have it you pay $1000 or more per year to operate it. Most folks aren't committed enough to photography to add more expense with a dedicated small camera. Why buy a separate thing if it only does what the phone will do? The photographer community can argue better image quality, increased versatility, etc., but most people don't care that much. The phone gets a picture -- instantly they can send it electronically to friends & family. Even a point & shoot with WIFI is going to be dependent on a WIFI connection so it may not be instant gratification. If they want a print they can go to Walgreen's or CVS and get one for five or 10 cents. Hell, even the cheapie little "portrait studios" at Walmart and Sears are shutting down.

For several reasons, photography one of them, I used to carry a small compass. Now I have one in my smart phone so I'm not buying a compass anymore. Redundancy. There was a time I carried a small reference book with lots of photography info -- DOF guides, ASA (ISO) info, flash guides, a gray card, etc. I don't consider buying such guides today because all that, and much more, is in my phone (well, not the gray card, I guess!). Redundancy. I see and hear a trend toward younger people not using wristwatches -- their phones give the correct time. Redundancy. I've even stopped wearing a wristwatch most of the time. I also often carried a stopwatch, especially for sport events -- my phone does that now. Redundancy. The greatest stopwatch/watch/compass/etc. ever made for a smart phone has no influence on whether I buy any of those objects individually. They get the job done in the phone, and that's all I care about.

Anecdotally, I just don't see people using point & shoot cameras anymore. I see either smart phones or bridge/DSLR cameras.

The trouble is that many people use this philosophy of not bringing a compass on to a mountain too seriously. In the UK there have been numerous call outs to the (voluntary) mountain rescue teams to rescue them because the battery in their phone has run dry. The trouble is that redundancy might be apparent, but that doesn't mean it's real.

 

[cayenne]

I just read some of the reviews on the Lumia 1020. I have to say, from a photography standpoint, I am REALLY impressed. It finally brings the true PureView 808's 41mp sensor, the 6-element Zeiss lens from the 925, and full Xenon flash to a phone pretty much built for photography. Their pro photo software looks rather nice, giving you complete control over all the standard aspects of exposure (i.e. want to do a long exposure and blur people walking by...you can). I love the fact that it has the extended battery "grip" accessory, too.

http://www.nokia.com/global/products/phone/lumia1020


So, does this mark the true end of the point and shoot, and the beginning of full blown photography phones with all the features we *photographers* have come to expect from an actual camera? To date, phone cameras have been geared more towards the instagrammer crowd...the Lumia 1020 seems to be positioned more for pro photographers who want something simpler, but still just as capable, for a handy every-moment alternative to a DSLR.

Is it only me who thinks this?

I don't think there is much of anyone (camera or other phones) that will have much to fear from competiton from this phone, as long as it is running Windows.

;D ;D

Cayenne

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Sensor is a lot smaller than the one in say an RX100. Fixed lens (yeah you can sort of digitally zoom with the high MP a count a bit but still). etc. So I don't see where you are coming from. It's great for a phone though. For some it may be enough, either they go fully serious and DSLR or this though.

 

[caruser]

The trouble is that many people use this philosophy of not bringing a compass on to a mountain too seriously. In the UK there have been numerous call outs to the (voluntary) mountain rescue teams to rescue them because the battery in their phone has run dry. The trouble is that redundancy might be apparent, but that doesn't mean it's real.

Battery life is a very real problem with modern smartphones, you get all the features, but not for very long!

 

[caruser]

Anecdotally, I just don't see people using point & shoot cameras anymore. I see either smart phones or bridge/DSLR cameras.

And, it appears, many iPads and other tablets, seems like more than p/s cameras...