There may be a higher-end APS-C mirrorless announced in late 2020, early 2021 [CR2]

Michael Clark

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Apr 5, 2016
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I'm struggling with the idea of an RF-S lens. The distance to the sensor from the bayonet would still have to be the same as the RF lens, since the mount/sensor relationship is the same as you'd need in order to maintain compatibility with the full frame lenses. I suppose the rear glass could still come in to the body farther on account of needing a smaller image circle. It would even still mount on a FF variant although it wouldn't cover the whole sensor. I guess you'd be somewhat limited in the size savings as the RF mount is bigger than the EF mount, so the smallest RF lens will still be bigger. But maybe it could work as an ecosystem. Will be exciting to see.

RF and EF have the exact same 54mm throat diameter. EF-M is smaller at 47mm.
 

Michael Clark

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I had good results with my 7D2 as well. Then I got my 5D4 and my keeper rate went through the roof. I felt like I was cheating.

I think that is mostly attributable to the wider baseline for the 5D Mark IV PDAF sensor array, due to the wider mirror and the wider portion of that mirror that is semi-translucent, than for the 7D Mark II PDAF sensor array. That might not be an issue with a mirrorless camera, which does not use microlenses to aim light from opposite edges of the lens to line sensors in a PDAF array in the same way.
 
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Jul 16, 2020
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My wish is for a successor to the M50, a camera that I own and love. I definitely want the M mount, 50-100% more pixel count for my pixel-peeping, 60 fps 4k video, night and astrophotography mode(s), a smattering of AI and computational software in line with what the high-end smartphones can do. A dumbed down R5 or R6 is not what I would want. Of course, if this has been in the pipeline for months now, my wishlist applies to the successor of the successor of the next mirrorless APS-C.
 

Michael Clark

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The R6 seems to have went up market a little bit but then they also decided to give it a lesser body just to make the R5 better rather than let the sensors separate them. I don't know if a R7 APS-C body fits anymore with there being a strong suggestion of a full FF lineup and even a sub $1000 FF body.

The 6D and 6D Mark II both have "lesser" body materials than the contemporary 5D Mark III and 5D Mark IV bodies. 5-series have always been magnesium alloy. 6-series have always been polycarbonate. Contemporary 5-series bodies always had higher resolution rear LCDs than 6-series bodies.

If an R7 APS-C body happens, it will NOT be the cheapest, entry level RF body. It will be a specialist camera like the 7D Mark II that was aimed squarely at advanced shooters already in the EF system that needed a fast, tough, and affordable body with high pixel density.

The 6D Mark II was also more "upmarket" than the 6D. All one needs to do is compare the 11 pt. entry level lower end Rebel level AF system to the 45 pt. upscaled 80D AF system in the 6D Mark II. Except for a few minor differences (1/8000 vs 1/4000, x-sync 1/180 vs. 1/200, etc., slightly downgraded AF, lesser body material) the 6D Mark II in 2017 was pretty much the equal of the 5D Mark III from 2012.
 
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Michael Clark

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You all might be missing the real opportunity here: 800mm f/11 + RF-S speed booster on an RF-S body. Ratchet that image circle down to 1.6 crop, and you now have an effective 1120mm f/8. In fact, that might be the primary reason those f/11 lenses exist.

Except those f/11 super teles are already 20mm registration RF mount. Where is the space between lens and camera to fit the speedbooster?
 

wyotex43n

EOS M6 Mark II
Jan 24, 2016
66
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How many of those dwindling numbers of Rebels sold at Costco are bought by customers who ever intend to upgrade to anything other than a newer Rebel in the future?

Very few.

Canon isn't even worried about people who might enter on the ground floor of RF with APS-C and then "upgrade" to FF.

They're intent on making FF affordable enough that anyone who wants to do more than what they can do with their smartphone or a compact EF-M camera can get into RF on the ground floor with FF.

The R7 will NOT be the cheapest, entry level RF body. There's no way it will be cheaper than an RP or whatever eventually replaces the RP.

If an R7 happens, it will be a specialist body for sports/action/wildlife photographers just like the 7D series was. The target buyer will not be someone buying their first "real" camera. The target buyer will be someone who is already in the RF system (or is in the EF system and currently using the 7D Mark II) and has a specific need for a durable, fast, and affordable camera with pixel density that gives them "reach" at a fraction of the price of a FF camera with the same pixel density, speed, and durability.
 

Michael Clark

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I only speak for me obviously but as a former 7D2 shooter I don't understand why people dwell on the crop bodies for wildlife. Aside from the extra reach (which I overcame using the 1.4X) I don't see the attraction. When I head out the door birding (which is almost what I do exclusively) I'm carrying the 5D4 or EOS-R.

They are superior than the 7D2 in every single way except FPS.

YMMV..

I think the vast majority of 7D buyers, particularly of the Mark II, are youth/high school/small college sports shooters on a tight budget who found they could use a 70-200/2.8 for field sports under lights instead of needing a much more expensive 300/2.8 when shooting FF. That's certainly the place where I see almost all 7D bodies out in the wild. (Or more accurately, saw, since the SARS-CoV-2 virus.)

The combination of speed, toughness, pixel density, and affordability made the 7D Mark II perfect for that role at a far lower price than, say, a 1D X Mark II + EF 300mm f/2.8 plus the cost of a second body with 70-200 for when the action gets too close for the 300mm prime.

Using a 1.4X with FF works fine at brighter venues, but many youth/high school/small college fields do not have the light. Often the difference between f/2.8 and f/4 at ISO 3200 is the difference between 1/500 and 1/1000, which is often the difference between motion blur and frozen at those levels of competition.
 
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goldenhusky

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Dec 2, 2016
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If this rumor is going to be true, I guess this camera will have the same 32MP sensor from the 90D and M62. I know in the past Canon have made dedicated sensor for 7D2 but with a shrinking camera market I doubt if Canon will do that plus the 90D sensor seems to be very good. M62 already does 14 fps so that is not an issue. However I kind of have a mixed feeling about the RF mount for the APS-C camera. Sure there is excellent RF glass at the moment like the RF100-500 and the RF600 and RF800 plus people can use all the EF glass but will Canon release APS-C lenses for the RF mount? If so will they continue with EF-M and RF APS-C lenses? I don't know. I think Nikon did a better job when it comes to that. Given Canon's history I will not be surprised if Canon completely ditches the EF-M mount. They can sell more RF glass. We will have to wait and see. At this point EF-S mount is pretty much dead I guess.
 

Michael Clark

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With those specs? That would be a surprise.

Compare the $2,099 6D in 2012 to the $1,799 7D Mark II in 2014.

The 7DII was faster, tougher, cheaper, had higher pixel density, a 200,000 shutter life rating, a much larger and brighter VF, and a near 1D X/5D III level AF system.

The 6D was slower, polycarbonate, lower resolution, a 100,000 shutter life rating, and a lower-tier Rebel level AF system.
 

wyotex43n

EOS M6 Mark II
Jan 24, 2016
66
42
How many of those dwindling numbers of Rebels sold at Costco are bought by customers who ever intend to upgrade to anything other than a newer Rebel in the future?

Very few.

Canon isn't even worried about people who might enter on the ground floor of RF with APS-C and then "upgrade" to FF.

They're intent on making FF affordable enough that anyone who wants to do more than what they can do with their smartphone or a compact EF-M camera can get into RF on the ground floor with FF.

The R7 will NOT be the cheapest, entry level RF body. There's no way it will be cheaper than an RP or whatever eventually replaces the RP.

If an R7 happens, it will be a specialist body for sports/action/wildlife photographers just like the 7D series was. The target buyer will not be someone buying their first "real" camera. The target buyer will be someone who is already in the RF system (or is in the EF system and currently using the 7D Mark II) and has a specific need for a durable, fast, and affordable camera with pixel density that gives them "reach" at a fraction of the price of a FF camera with the same pixel density, speed, and durability.

I agree with you. The 7d mk2 is the in between camera that probably caused a lot of discussion at Canon. Its APC but with the speed and build quality of of the higher end FF Canon's. Most users put higher end telephotos on them. In effect a budget 1D minus the high iso performance. I think Canon sees two markets. FF with high quality expensive lenses and profit margin. M series for small light relatively inexpensive but prone to erosion due to smart phones.
The new 600/800mm seem like gateway products to entice users to the RF side.
 

Michael Clark

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I’ve wished they’d skip apsc and focus only on FF. They can make even a cheaper body than the RP for beginners, they can make cheap lenses for FF too. It would be easier for beginners to transition from entry-level to professional.

If an APS-C R7 happens, it will not the cheapest, entry level R body. It won't be a "Rebel", it will be like a 7D Mark II that for most of its history has sold for 2-3X what the entry level Rebels cost.
 
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Michael Clark

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I don't see how one is able to get a lens with a 140mm entrance pupil from a lens with a 73mm entrance pupil

You don't. (Get a lens with a 140mm ep from a lens with a 73mm ep.)

800mm/11 = 73mm

With the 0.625X speedbooster the real focal length of the combination is reduced to 500mm.

500mm/73mm = 6.8 (f/6.8)

Then you put it on a 1.6X crop sensor and you get an "effective" 800mm f/6.8, not an "effective" 1280mm f/8.

But that doesn't even consider that the 800mm f/11 is already an RF lens with no extra room to place a speed booster between the lens flange and the body flange of an RF mount camera.
 
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Traveler

EOS R6
Oct 6, 2019
117
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If an APS-C R7 happens, it will not the cheapest, entry level R body. It won't be a "Rebel", it will be like a 7D Mark II that for most of its history has sold for 2-3X what the entry level Rebels cost.
But why is an R7 needed? I guess it was for high speed back in the days. But now you can shoot 12/20fps with a FF
 

Michael Clark

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Apr 5, 2016
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Please forgive what is likely a stupid question....

But rather than a dedicated crop sensor camera, could Canon not have a "crop mode" setting for say, the R5 and have it do the same thing a dedicated crop sensor camera does?

Seems that would be the route to go....give you everything you'd want in one body?

C

Except lower cost and higher pixel density. (And the needed second body for low light sports shooters, many of whom usually carry both a "long" and "wide" body with lenses mounted on both for fast swapping when the action moves closer.)

7D Mark II - $1,799 in 2014 with pixel density equal to 50MP $3,699 5Ds, much higher than 24MP $3,499 5D Mark III.
7D Mark II - $1,799 in 2014 with 10 fps (faster than 6 fps $3,499 5D Mark III and 5 fps $3,699 5Ds, almost as fast as $6,499 12 fps 1D X)

The obvious target for pixel density in 2020-21 would be the APS-C version of the R5s sensor, rumored to be in the 80MP range. That would give an APS-C sensor with 31MP. The obvious fps target would be 12/20 (R5, R6) or even 14/30 (M6 Mark II).

It could be basically an M6 Mark II/90D resolution sensor in an R5 type body, though I see Canon likely going to a polycarbonate body if this happens. The 5D Mark III/IV and 7D Mark II bodies were nearly identical in size, shape, and button layout.

It would also probably have an M6 Mark II type shutter, rather than a scaled down version of the R5 shutter rated at 500,000 cycles. For context, the 2014 7D Mark II has a 200,000 shutter rating. This was between the 150,000 rating for the 2012 5D Mark III/2016 Mark IV and the 400,000 rating for the 2012 1D X and 2016 1D X Mark II. Both the R5 and 1D X Mark III have a 500,000 shutter durability rating, the R6 has a 300,000 shutter rating. The 30D-80D had 100,000 shutter life ratings, the 90D ups that to 120,000. None of the EOS M series have published shutter durability ratings.
 

AEWest

EOS RP
Jan 30, 2020
380
475
Entry level Rebel did a lot for Canon when people were buying ILCs like crazy. But as total ILC numbers continue to drop, the lion's share of the erosion is in the entry level APS-C product space. Canon can no longer rely on those buyers to keep them profitable, because those buyers are becoming fewer and fewer each year.

Those buyers who bought Rebels by the truckloads between 2003-2012 are the people who have been, gradually over the last few years, no longer seeing a need for any camera beyond the one inside their smartphones. They're the same folks who decided they no longer needed cable television if they have decent Broadband, because streaming is good enough for them. They're the same folks who, before that, decided they no longer needed a landline telephone once they all had cell phones.
As an example, my daughter graduated high school this year. There was a limited ceremony due to covid. I took along my 6D and flash for some family photos.

I was the only one there with a dedicated camera of any kind - no compact cameras there let alone FF DSLRs. Some people stared at me like I had two heads! Nothing but smartphones for family photos. People came up to me ask about the camera. A few years ago there would have been at least compact cameras.
 

Mr Majestyk

EOS RP
Feb 20, 2016
419
276
Australia
Seams weird to do a high end APS-C camera as an M camera as the native lens options are limited. M line up is saved by the Sigma primes.
RF mount sounds more likely given the lens selection. Yes, I know you can adapt on the EF-M mount, but still.

Indeed, if if weren;t for Sigma the lens lineup for EOS-M would be embarassing after so many years. I may have bought something along the lines of an M5II in RF mount, but hopefully we get to see a 7DII successor in RF mount long before Nikon makes a D500 successor. If the AF is basically R5 level in a crop sensor of 24-30MP, I may grab that over the R5, would be happy with just 4K60p, 4K30p and FHD180p
 
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