There may be a higher-end APS-C mirrorless announced in late 2020, early 2021 [CR2]

Michael Clark

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Apr 5, 2016
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I kind of wonder what this means for EF APS-C. I figured Canon would continue that because it draws a lot of customers, but if APS-C on RF mount or in R body style becomes a thing, maybe Canon is considering a larger pivot to mirrorless. The EF-M transition pathway to RF is obviously much more clunky than EF-S to EF was, so there is reason to consider that path.

As the number of ILC units sold continues to decline, most of the erosion is in the entry level APS-C camera space. Most of the folks that buy those have no ambitions to ever transition into any other "upgrade path". In Asia, many of those folks have already moved from EF-S to EF-M products. In the West, those are also the folks who are, more and more, happy to stick with their ever improving phones as their only camera.
 

Michael Clark

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There's no need for a new mount, but an RF to M adapter would be cool.
Is there any reason that a RF lens couldn't work on an M body if there was an appropriate adapter?

The lugs on RF lenses are more than 2mm thick. Since the throat diameter of the EF-M mount is smaller than the throat diameter of the RF mount, it's physically impossible to place the flange of an RF lens at 20mm from the sensor of an EF-M camera. Any "adapter" would also need to include optics to allow infinity focus. Such optics would also make it a teleconverter with the accompanying narrowing of field of view, loss of image quality, and reduction of maximum f-number.
 

Michael Clark

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...and it's a means to downsize/obsolete EF-S and EF-M someday if Canon should ever want to. Then everyone would be under one roof in RF -- without the painful 'migrating to FF means you can't use your crop lenses anymore' problem.

- A

I don't think Canon is worried about providing anyone a path for "migrating" from APS-C to FF any more.

Instead, they seem to be headed towards making FF cheap enough to begin with that those seriously interested in using their cameras for anything more than casual snapshots or as a very compact travel option can start with FF in the RF mount.
 

Aussie shooter

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Someone posted a video on one of the R5/R6 threads of an interview and there was the implication that the R6 was actually a replacement(mirrorless version might be a better description) of both the 6d2 AND the 7d2
 

Michael Clark

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I think Canon may take a page from Nikon's book on crop and just make an RF mount crop platform -- lenses and APS-C R mount bodies -- to (eventually) get out of EF-S.

The low end of that line would need to be really cheap to replace what the entry Rebel line does for the business financially.

- A

Entry level Rebel did a lot for Canon when people were buying ILCs like crazy. But as total ILC numbers continue to drop, the lion's share of the erosion is in the entry level APS-C product space. Canon can no longer rely on those buyers to keep them profitable, because those buyers are becoming fewer and fewer each year.

Those buyers who bought Rebels by the truckloads between 2003-2012 are the people who have been, gradually over the last few years, no longer seeing a need for any camera beyond the ones inside their smartphones which are getting better with each new product cycle, particularly in the way they computationally handle static low light scenarios. They're the same folks who decided they no longer needed cable television if they have decent Broadband, because streaming is good enough for them. They're the same folks who, before that, decided they no longer needed a landline telephone once they all had cell phones with reliable coverage where they live.
 
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Dragon

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May 29, 2019
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I would like a nice full featured M5 mark II, thank you. OTOH, the clever solution would be a body with very short flange distance that could support an adapter to either M or R. That way you get a choice between lens performance and portability. Canon went out of the box for the R5, so anything is possible.
 

navastronia

EOS RP + 5D Classic
Aug 31, 2018
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The $64,000 question: will they follow suit with Nikon and Sony and make smaller/lighter/cheaper APS-C sized RF lenses to go with it?

If they don't, it's Canon's way of saying 'FINE. Here's your damn 7D3, you guys never stop asking for it!' but birders/wildlifers lose their mirrors.

If they do, yowza -- it would mark the beginning of the end for both EF-M *and EF-S* mount bodies.

- A

I hope they don't make RF-S lenses. Let's move forward with just a single line of lens in the RF mount, compatible with everything.
 
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Michael Clark

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lmao anything with r5 body and weather sealing would be r5 priced.


If it's going to replace the 7DII (which means it needs to have a more weather-sealed body than the R6), it's not going to cost less than $2199.

The $1,799 7D Mark II had more weather sealing and a higher shutter durability rating when it was introduced in 2014 than the the current 5-series camera at the time, the 5D Mark III introduced at $3,499 in 2012. The much less durable FF 6D was introduced at $2,099 in 2012.
 

Michael Clark

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I guess there could be an APS-C R7 in the pipeline and may be even R 10D 20D etc plus some new RF-S lenses.

I am looking forward to some new EOS M bodies too, that would give us lots to chat about on here but if all this is to come I think that might be the final nail in the coffin for the EOS DSLR line-up though, which some people might miss.

Not the final nail in the coffin, so to speak, but it does mean the fat lady is warming up her voice with two outs in the bottom of the ninth.
 

navastronia

EOS RP + 5D Classic
Aug 31, 2018
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Entry level Rebel did a lot for Canon when people were buying ILCs like crazy. But as total ILC numbers continue to drop, the lion's share of the erosion is in the entry level APS-C product space. Canon can no longer rely on those buyers to keep them profitable, because those buyers are becoming fewer and fewer each year.

Those buyers who bought Rebels by the truckloads between 2003-2012 are the people who have been, gradually over the last few years, no longer seeing a need for any camera beyond the one inside their smartphones. They're the same folks who decided they no longer needed cable television if they have decent Broadband, because streaming is good enough for them. They're the same folks who, before that, decided they no longer needed a landline telephone once they all had cell phones.

I don't think this is all true. The APS-C rebels also served as a ladder for many of us to get into full-frame cameras. In fact, I don't know any photographers who went whole-ham and purchased a 5D as their first digital camera (though I suppose I don't know many wealthy people, either. Maybe this is more common than I know).
 
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Michael Clark

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Not possible, both because of the flange distance and the different protocols for RF and M lenses.

Theoretically possible to build something where the whole mount assembly can be replaced with either an RF or M version, but I'd be concerned what tolerances would be needed to make it work (perhaps not so much if the sensor has IBIS) and how it would be strong enough to support the lens weight and the weather sealing.

There's no issue at all with the lens protocols. Canon has all of the code, and both the EF-M and RF protocols are expanded versions of the EF protocols.

The issue is physical: comparative throat diameters and only 2mm difference in registration distance doesn't leave room for the RF bayonet lugs behind the RF flange 20mm from the sensor.
 

sanj

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Jan 22, 2012
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I don't think Canon is worried about providing anyone a path for "migrating" from APS-C to FF any more.

Instead, they seem to be headed towards making FF cheap enough to begin with that those seriously interested in using their cameras for anything more than casual snapshots or as a very compact travel option can start with FF in the RF mount.
I would welcome an option of lighter, cheaper APSC cameras/lenses. Just like we used to have earlier with EF lenses and cameras.
 

Michael Clark

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I don't see how Canon can replace all those Rebels they sell at Costco without RF-S bodies. I suppose they could greatly expand the M line, but that doesn't offer much of an upgrade path to RF, which seems like it'd be a critical goal. The nice thing here is that RF-S bodies in this case would pair well with the higher res R bodies going forward since they'd actually be able to mount -S lenses, unlike with EF-S

How many of those dwindling numbers of Rebels sold at Costco are bought by customers who ever intend to upgrade to anything other than a newer Rebel in the future?

Very few.

Canon isn't even worried about people who might enter on the ground floor of RF with APS-C and then "upgrade" to FF.

They're intent on making FF affordable enough that anyone who wants to do more than what they can do with their smartphone or a compact EF-M camera can get into RF on the ground floor with FF.

The R7 will NOT be the cheapest, entry level RF body. There's no way it will be cheaper than an RP or whatever eventually replaces the RP.

If an R7 happens, it will be a specialist body for sports/action/wildlife photographers just like the 7D series was. The target buyer will not be someone buying their first "real" camera. The target buyer will be someone who is already in the RF system (or is in the EF system and currently using the 7D Mark II) and has a specific need for a durable, fast, and affordable camera with pixel density that gives them "reach" at a fraction of the price of a FF camera with the same pixel density, speed, and durability.
 
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Michael Clark

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Personally, I think this will be an RF mount camera. Since it will be “high end” there will be no need or demand for cheap RF-s lenses. This is for the birders. I assume they will use their EF super-tele lenses and future RF super-tele lenses.

Along with the youth/high school/small college sports shooters on a tight budget who can use a much more affordable 70-200/2.8 to shoot field sports under lights with an APS-C body rather than using a FF body and needing a much more expensive 300/2.8 lens.
 

dwarven

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Dec 12, 2019
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So. Another thing about an APS-C EOS R model. How much do you think it's going to cost?
If it's going to replace the 7DII (which means it needs to have a more weather-sealed body than the R6), it's not going to cost less than $2199.

I highly doubt it. $2199 would be very ambitious in a market where full frame is considered the best, and the end game for photography. And you can get a good full frame body for a few hundred less than that.