Update: The Canon EOS R3 will be officially announced on June 29th

neuroanatomist

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I guess Canon has poor business acumen. When they switched from FD to EF mount, they phased out of FD even though many photographers had FD cameras and could not even adapt the EF lenses.
You stated that Canon cannot run two competing systems. I pointed out that they have done just that for nearly a decade with APS/C, and a few years with FF. Having said that, I do believe they will phase out FF DSLRs and EF lenses. But not that rapidly.

Canon has to make a choice on their main camera system, and it appears with every passing day that RF is their go to system.
It depends on how you define ‘main camera system’. Canon sells far more APS-C cameras than FF cameras. They sell far more EF-S and -M lenses than EF and RF.


When they switched from FD to EF mount, they phased out of FD even though many photographers had FD cameras and could not even adapt the EF lenses.
EF offered a paradigm-shifting advantage – autofocus. Digital offered a paradigm-shifting advantage – instant image review gratification. MILCs are basically DSLRs without a mirror.
 
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David - Sydney

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You underestimate just how incredible fast the R5 overheats. On a sunny day is realy a dealbreaker.
Last shooting I got the overheat warning after 45 minutes of shooting. In this time I only recorded 15 (!) minutes of 4k60 footage. Its aweful and a real problem on location.
I used it in 4k25 after that.
Some time later I tried to record some 4k120 - after about 5 shots, each less than a minute it started blinkin again.
The 4k120 mode overheats incredible fast. Sometimes you need more than just 1 minute...
but if you add up to maybe 5 minutes record time in maybe 30 minutes on set, you get the overheat...
4k120 is great but does hit overheating limits quickly. That said, with 128GB cards, it only fits ~5 minutes of record time. More than enough for my requirements though.
In hot/summer indoor action shooting (>35C) over a couple of hours with continuous burst, my R5 did show the overheating lamp but of course the R5 didn't have any still shooting issues.

It sounds like you need an external recorder for your 4k60 and remove the cards to get longer record times. Can't use 4k120 externally though and Canon didn't include a IPB light option in the latest firmware :-(
 

privatebydesign

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I don’t remember an FD to EF converter. My point was that Canon is moving to RF, and phasing out of EF, which is a very expensive proposition. They need to encourage as many photographers as possible to make the switch. Making more EF cameras discourages the switch.
Yes there was an official Canon FD to EOS adapter. It only worked on the white telephotos and was released in very limited numbers.

 
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jam05

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This should cost the same as an R5. They've sacrificed too many features straight across with added features in other areas.
A rip off if it costs substancally more.
R5 Features = firmware = $$$
R3 BSI stacked sensor = hardware + firmware + improved heat sink = $$$$
 

jam05

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Mar 12, 2019
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No it is nothing like that at all! if I have a 10TB library why should I have to have a 20TB library instead when I have no practical use for any of that additional information.

What you are saying is we should all only be allowed to buy and shoot in 8k because it can be done, even if we have no use. for anything over 1080. What? Lol....
Dont buy it, or try to pursuade others from buying it, simply because it doesnt suit you
 

privatebydesign

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Dont buy it, or try to pursuade others from buying it, simply because it doesnt suit you
Clearly you weren’t following the conversation. I was being told I should buy stuff that doesn’t suit me just because it’s new technology. I was simply saying why? I wasn’t trying to convince anybody to do anything other than to stop telling me what I need when I know perfectly well what that is.
 

jam05

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Mar 12, 2019
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Canon also said at introduction that the R5 was NOT a replacement for the 5DIV, and yet it is.

They want to protect the 1Dx3's market value by calling it the flagship, but how can a camera with an obsolete mount be considered a flagship? The R3 will beat the 1Dx3 in almost every way, so it will be the flagship until the R1 arrives.
Thats not how flagship works. A new Toyoto Camry wont replace an older Lexus as flagship merely because of its age. Value marketing doesnt work that way. The consumers perceived value isnt based on the model year.
 

jam05

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EF mount is still superior, because it has the most native glass available by a very wide margin.

Also, for video, EF lenses will always be better than RF lenses. The EF to RF mounts with ND are a game changer, and ensure that video shooters won’t ever be buying RF glass. Much better to have an ND wheel between an EF lens and RF camera than a RF lens without the ability to control ND. Same is true for cine glass, why buy RF when you can use EF mount lenses with an ND wheel on the back end?
Because the motors and electronics will be outdated and obsolete as well as the optics
 

jam05

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SD Express spec 8 can handle 4gb/s ie the same as 4 PCIe lanes. CFe Type A = 1GB/s, Type B = 2GB/s, Type C (much bigger ) = 4GB/s.... but Lexar's write speed for the first SD Express card is 400MB/s to be released in 2022.

So yes, SD Express can be fast but there aren't controllers and cards that will be equivalent for a long time. SD Express will also not be available locally except in specialist stores.

There are 4 officially supported OEMs for Type B but users report that the smaller Sandisk also work. Only Sony produces the CFe Type A and canon would be crazy to rely on Sony memory for a Canon flagship camera.

The question is really what speed is needed and what heat is generated? Canon RAW light options can reduce the bit rate by ~half. Sony got their 4:2:0 oversampled 8K down to 400MB/s so they didn't need CFe Type B.

So what choice is there for Canon? Dual CFe Type B would clearly work and there should be space in the R3 body for them if they wanted to include them. UHS-II SD is the only other choice but they are significantly slower than CFe B and slightly cheaper now for the same capacity and could become cheaper again over time

SD Express spec 8 can handle 4gb/s ie the same as 4 PCIe lanes. CFe Type A = 1GB/s, Type B = 2GB/s, Type C (much bigger ) = 4GB/s.... but Lexar's write speed for the first SD Express card is 400MB/s to be released in 2022.

So yes, SD Express can be fast but there aren't controllers and cards that will be equivalent for a long time. SD Express will also not be available locally except in specialist stores.

There are 4 officially supported OEMs for Type B but users report that the smaller Sandisk also work. Only Sony produces the CFe Type A and canon would be crazy to rely on Sony memory for a Canon flagship camera.

The question is really what speed is needed and what heat is generated? Canon RAW light options can reduce the bit rate by ~half. Sony got their 4:2:0 oversampled 8K down to 400MB/s so they didn't need CFe Type B.

So what choice is there for Canon? Dual CFe Type B would clearly work and there should be space in the R3 body for them if they wanted to include them. UHS-II SD is the only other choice but they are significantly slower than CFe B and slightly cheaper now for the same capacity and could become cheaper again over time.
Uh, CFexpress cards and the card readers required to transfer the data are indeed themselves "specialty" items with a unique niche set of consumers. SD card slots are consumer products. And the SDexpress cards will be backwards compatible and still as fast as CFexpress bus A
 

jam05

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Mar 12, 2019
508
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If R3 was the planned successor to the 1DX then it would have 2 CF Express slots.
I get the feeling R3 was planned before the Z9 announcement and Canon is not as obsessed with what Sony does as social media is.
SDexpress will be as fast if not faster than most CFexpress cards. And more common
 

jam05

R5, C70
Mar 12, 2019
508
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If this is going to be an even higher end sports camera, then frankly, the R3 was a waste of time. That development time and money could have been better spent elsewhere. If Canon is following their old model of development, as some have suggested, the the R1 will not be another sports camera.
Canon says that the 1Dx3 flagship mirrorless replacement is not the R3. Its completely a new line. Thats simple and basic as it could be.
 
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David - Sydney

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Uh, CFexpress cards and the card readers required to transfer the data are indeed themselves "specialty" items with a unique niche set of consumers. SD card slots are consumer products. And the SDexpress cards will be backwards compatible and still as fast as CFexpress bus A
Let's talk about today and for the next year or so.... We have USH-II cards and CFe A (Sony only and limited to 160GB at this time) and B (multiple OEMs, capacities and speeds). All CFe cards have faster write times than USH-II cards. Even when the Lexar SD Express card comes out next year, it will still be slower than all CFe cards.

Yes, SD Express looks interesting and potentially fast but the market will decide if becomes a standard or if it will be bypassed like USH-iii standard has been. It will be years until there are multiple OEMs making fast SD Express cards and multiple cameras using them and then we can talk about how successful SD Express will be. By that time, I believe that CFe B slot/cards will be entrenched for high end cameras simply for the video capability.

The worst case scenario of needing to buy a class 1 SD card from a supermarket in an emergency will only take a few still shots. Dual card slots should alleviate the need to cover multiple card failures. I guess that it is more likely that the tog has run out of space on the card itself. Better to format one card and the take the risk of card failure to double your space or use wifi/usb-c cable to offload

A single slot supporting SD Express, UHS-iii/UHS-ii/CFe type A cards would be a cool option though.
 
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David - Sydney

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SDexpress will be as fast if not faster than most CFexpress cards. And more common
As with the Betamax vs VHS format war in the 1980s, cost and installed base ultimately determined the winner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videotape_format_war
High end cameras have changed memory formats relatively frequently (CF, Cfast, XQD, CFe A/B and UHS-i/ii) depending on their need for speed.

If there is no/limited cost difference for the card slot to handle multiple standards then the camera manufacturers won't have an issue. It is really about what the market is for the cards themselves. If the volume for SD Express is not high then the price won't fall.
 
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It is sad that Canon no longer wants to give us the choice between DSLRs and mirrorless cameras. After a while they will proudly claim that most people switched to mirrorless and say that acceptance is very high, but is it really accaptance if you are forced to switch, because DSLRs are no longer developed? It reminds me of Microsoft proudly claiming how many people switched to Windows 10. Or some dictator claiming 95% percent of votes in an "election", although he was the only candidate. Or 16:9 TVs for example. After years I still hate that format and prefer the ration of 4:3, but I was more or less forced to move to 16:9. Or cellphones without an replaceable battery. Most people loved the option that they could replace the battery after two years or so and get the whole battery capacity again, but we were not given a choice. Luckily the EU might make replaceable batteries mandatory again, but the EU probably will not save DLSRs :-(

The only real advantage of mirrorless cameras is the shorter flange distance that makes new lens designs possible, but I probably would not buy those overpriced RF lenses anyway and instead use an EF adapater and therfore lose that advantage. All other features of mirrorless camera could be incorporated in the live view mode of a conventional DSLR for those who really want a mirrorless experience. Cameras like the 1D X Mark III already work like a mirrorless camera in live view mode and it would even be possible to attach an external EVF.
 

blackcoffee17

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It is sad that Canon no longer wants to give us the choice between DSLRs and mirrorless cameras. After a while they will proudly claim that most people switched to mirrorless and say that acceptance is very high, but is it really accaptance if you are forced to switch, because DSLRs are no longer developed? It reminds me of Microsoft proudly claiming how many people switched to Windows 10. Or some dictator claiming 95% percent of votes in an "election", although he was the only candidate. Or 16:9 TVs for example. After years I still hate that format and prefer the ration of 4:3, but I was more or less forced to move to 16:9. Or cellphones without an replaceable battery. Most people loved the option that they could replace the battery after two years or so and get the whole battery capacity again, but we were not given a choice. Luckily the EU might make replaceable batteries mandatory again, but the EU probably will not save DLSRs :-(

The only real advantage of mirrorless cameras is the shorter flange distance that makes new lens designs possible, but I probably would not buy those overpriced RF lenses anyway and instead use an EF adapater and therfore lose that advantage. All other features of mirrorless camera could be incorporated in the live view mode of a conventional DSLR for those who really want a mirrorless experience. Cameras like the 1D X Mark III already work like a mirrorless camera in live view mode and it would even be possible to attach an external EVF.

Developing 2 PRO systems and mounts takes lots of resources and they probably decided it's not worth it. In a few years most people will switch to mirrorless anyway. There will always be a few who want to use DSLR and optical viewfinder but that happens with film too.
I personally wouldn't go back to chunky DSLR's, AF adjustments and flapping mirrors, but I like the OVF.
 

GMCPhotographics

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It might depend on the local market... Most current EF lenses go for ~60% of retail value for good examples. Previous version for about a third. The EF100-400mm ii is an exception with about 70-80% second hand price which is why I went to RF100-500mm (@ 20% off sale). EF70-200/2.8ii is about 60% of the new mark iii retail price. Very few ads for EF70-200mm/2.8iii though.

For bodies, the 5Div is selling second hand for ~60% of retail price with reasonable shutter count and a few years old. I bought mine second hand and then sold it for slightly more than I sold it for!

The market for EF lenses is obviously a bit saturated due to people migrating to RF. This will depress their prices permanently but their performance will continue to be excellent for many years to come.

It would be tough to decide which OEM/mirror v mirrorless to choose from if I was to start a camera kit from scratch now. From a pure cost perspective, second hand Canon DLSR + EF lenses would make good financial sense. Sony's marketing machine (including fanbois) would be hard to ignore though.
You are comparing new EF prices vs current S/H values. I bought my EF 85mm f1.2 IIL for £895 new, some time back. Since then, there's been several recessions and multiple RRP price hikes. Now it's still worth a wee bit more on the S/H market than I bought it for (and I've had years of good use out of it). Which is amazing considering that it's been effectively been superseded twice (ef 85mm f1.4L and rf 85mm f1.2L). I paid £3K each for my pair of 5DIII's bodies...latest and greatest at the time...now they are work about £700 each. Sure I've had good use out of them, but that's a large hit. DSLR / RF Bodies go down over time because they are being replaced by better models every few years. look at the price of a S/H EOS R's are compared to how much they cost new as few years back. Canon are actively targeting S/H cameras with their lower models because they don't make any money on S/H cameras. The 6D was designed to compete against (and be slightly better) than previous generation of 5D series on the S/H market. Compare how much a lens for the EOS R cost 3 years back compared to now...those same lenses now retail a little higher than 3 years back due to inflation and spiralling production costs. If you sold those 3 year old lens, you wouldn't loose out much. Give it a few more years and those lenses will be selling S/H for the same pair for it 3 years previous. But the Ros R and Rp are selling for a lot less S/H.

However, i do agree with you that your local market and local retailers have a lot of power over the S/H prices, desirability and new prices.