What’s next from Canon?

Jul 12, 2013
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I don't think either the R7 or the R10 could be called low end. I tend to think Canon has a pretty good handle on their markets and would not make cameras that won't sell.
Good point (as far as the R7 is concerned).

My brain, when I wrote that...was here: the R7 is not cheap. People who buy one are probably already in the Canon ecosystem...in a big way (financially). Other than frame rate and price difference, personally, what I've seen of the specs etc. for the R7...are not compelling enough to 'invest' in yet another Canon mount (RF-S).

And if I'm reading things right...the RF-S 18-150 lens specs are virtually identical to the EF-M 18-150!

Are these two lenses, other than mount, virtually identical?

People here crap all over the quality of the images produced by the EF-M 18-150 (and many of the other EF-M lenses as well!)...

So the R7 demands a better (kit) lens than that...right?

This is no problem for those invested in Canon glass already...

I just really wonder who is going to buy the R7 (beyond enthusiasts)...I guess price and frame rate considerations make it a reasonable facsimile of an R3?

Fun stuff!
 
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Del Paso

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I wonder what the reverse would cost: an R5 with the R3 sensor and EVF. It would beat the both the R6 and R5 on speed in all ways. But I'm not sure how it would fit into the line up.
Could indeed be interesting!
 

unfocused

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If the US photography market is anything like the UK It's quite sad that shops like Best Buy (and Currys in the UK) are about the only bricks and mortar camera shops left. There used to be at least 4 photographic shops in my local area. All gone. You can only buy cameras locally in Currys and Argos.

That said, I don't think that the stock Currys and Argos carry - and probably Best Buy, is truly representative of what many photography enthusiasts actually want.
Digital killed local camera shops.

It was a slow death but the fatal blow came when local shops no longer had film, chemicals and paper to sell. For shops aimed at enthusiasts and pros, it was those peripheral products that were the daily bread and butter of local shops. A camera or a lens was a one-time sale, but it was all the extras that provided the day-to-day revenue stream.

When I was a youth, I spent far more on feeding my habit through darkroom supplies than I ever spent on cameras and lenses and while I could order a camera through the mail, it was impractical to order darkroom supplies that way. Most camera shops also developed and printed photos as well, which added to their revenue stream.

Of course, there also used to be a daily newspaper in every decent sized town. I'm pretty sure the local paper I worked at after college provided a significant source of revenue to the local camera shop because we bought a LOT of paper, film and chemicals from them.
 
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Jul 12, 2013
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Digital killed local camera shops.

It was a slow death but the fatal blow came when local shops no longer had film, chemicals and paper to sell. For shops aimed at enthusiasts and pros, it was those peripheral products that were the daily bread and butter of local shops. A camera or a lens was a one-time sale, but it was all the extras that provided the day-to-day revenue stream.

When I was a youth, I spent far more on feeding my habit through darkroom supplies than I ever spent on cameras and lenses and while I could order a camera through the mail, it was impractical to order darkroom supplies that way. Most camera shops also developed and printed photos as well, which added to their revenue stream.

Of course, there also used to be a daily newspaper in every decent sized town. I'm pretty sure the local paper I worked at after college provided a significant source of revenue to the local camera shop because we bought a LOT of paper, film and chemicals from them.
...more good points here. I learned a lot...some of which I'd thought previously.

I saw the daily newspaper angle you're supplying here from the sports side of things--the stadia and arenas had, in some cases, rather significant space necessary for the newspaper photographers to work up their own film images, in order to 'beat' deadlines.
 
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USMarineCorpsVet

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So many CR members, so many different wishes and hopes.
Mine would be: the R3 with the R5 sensor. That's all, folks!
I think a lot of people would love a camera like that. The low resolution of the R3 is a big negative for many people. Especially when Sony and Nikon are offering 45+ mpx
 
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Del Paso

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The R3 with R5 sensor would be for me the ideal macro (eye AF) and landscape camera (integrated grip). Ergonomics are simply perfect!
Or the R5 with eye control AF, perfect for "windy" AF macro shots.
 
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gregedwards69

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Your point here is a good one.

A very good one.

Which leads to a question, though (no snark intended)...

Who, exactly, are photography enthusiasts? How is the 'enthusiast' category defined?

And to what degree do what these 'enthusiasts' purchase contribute to Canon's bottom line...compared with those who walked into Best Buy (in the USA) and bought a Canon Rebel XYZ?

I mean...Canon sold MILLIONS of those cameras...film (think Andre Agase ads from the film days) as well as digital (early 21st century).

I very much enjoy (most of!) the back-and-forth on this forum and others like it...and genuinely look forward to seeing what is next for Canon.

But I just don't see the market exploding in a good way...for both the R7 and the R10.

Could be wrong...!

No snark detected. TBH I just couldn’t think of a better word for what I was trying to infer. I don’t think there is a distinction between different types of camera buyers, other than “professional” i.e. someone who makes a living from photography. Nor do I know how the "enthusiast" category is defined.

To me, an enthusiast, or hobbyist is someone who is passionate about photography and invests significant time and money into their hobby, building a camera system, learning techniques, managing a DAM, and enjoys spending time editing. (I see the same thing in guitar circles. There are guys I know who have more, and higher-end gear than touring artists just to play down the dog n duck every other weekend).

This is a big assumption, but I think this is a different target than your typical Best Buy (or Currys) customer who doesn’t typically venture beyond the kit lens. A cliché, but these are perhaps “soccer moms” (as they’re known in the US), bloggers/vloggers, or tourists who want something better than their smartphone.

It’s been frequently said that the EOS M series is the best selling mirrorless camera in Japan. This doesn't mean these users are "photographers" or they want to take the art form seriously beyond getting some nice bokeh and sharing straight to social media with minimal editing.

But clearly, these are canon's biggest market and they would be foolish to ignore it. Perhaps this is why it's difficult to buy something a little more specialised from a physical shop, there's just not the market to stock for the few demanding customers.

Completely my humble opinion with what little knowledge if have in such matters along with some major assumptions. Always happy to be educated by more knowing individuals.
 
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Jul 12, 2013
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What a wonderful and enlightening response.

Thank you.

Your humble opinion is at least the equal of mine.

And this is a rumor site! It is all supposed to be fun...and if I learn stuff along the way--winner winner chicken dinner!

To borrow a phrase from your side of the Atlantic (and olde England, in fact?!), the whole M vs R-S thing has me 'bollixed'.

I literally don't understand (actually, I think I do, sort) why so many here crap on the EF-M efforts by Canon...and am puzzled by the demand (?!) for the R7 etc.

...and writing this caused me to look up the entymology of bollix. Testicles?! My oh my you Brits!

bollix (v.)
"bungle, make a mess of," 1937, a respelling (perhaps euphemistic) of bollocks, from Old English beallucas "testicles," from Proto-Germanic *ball-, from PIE root *bhel- (2) "to blow, swell." From 1919 as an interjection, "nonsense!" Related: Bollixed; bollixing.
 

David - Sydney

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The underlying data are from CIPA. The blue bars are ILCs. They also report fixed-lens cameras (i.e. P&S and ‘bridge’) but those aren’t in the chart.

Prior to 2012, they did not separately report MILC vs DSLR, but both are ILCs and were included as such. That’s why there’s no ramp up for mirrorless.

The plot by @dolina is incorrect (and misleading) in that he should have started the DSLR line in 2012 along with the MILC line. Instead, he plotted DSLRs as comprising all ILCs up to 2011, when in fact we don’t know the breakdown of MILC/DSLR prior to 2012 (but almost certainly MILCs would have ramped up over a few years as you suggest).
That makes more sense!
Assuming that the ramp up of MILCs was up to 2012, what would be a logical reason for MILC sales to stay relatively stable for 10 years vs dramatic change in DLSR sales?
For me, the rise of the camera phone is logical and has replaced compact cameras but they weren't in the ILC figures. I can see that there would have been some impact to both DLSR and MILC but it doesn't show here.
Canon and Nikon didn't have MILCs in the early years so Sony was the only volume seller but the consistent volume couldn't just be for Canon/Nikon switchers - could it?
 

lustyd

EOS M50
May 4, 2022
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If the US photography market is anything like the UK It's quite sad that shops like Best Buy (and Currys in the UK) are about the only bricks and mortar camera shops left. There used to be at least 4 photographic shops in my local area. All gone. You can only buy cameras locally in Currys and Argos.

That said, I don't think that the stock Currys and Argos carry - and probably Best Buy, is truly representative of what many photography enthusiasts actually want.
John Lewis too if you're lucky enough to have one in your town.

I think the real problem is that taking photos with an actual camera is extremely niche in 2022 and becoming more so by the day. I think there will be a resurgence of "camera shops" but they won't cater to photography, they'll cater to content creation with video and streaming at their heart - lots of studio gear, microphones, streamdecks, lighting, and a few good video cameras. It's quite interesting reading the comments on this and other camera sites of what those in the taking pictures niche think should be in a high end camera, often dismissing cameras like the M system which outsells the top end stuff by orders of magnitude. If Canon and others want to stay in business they need to go where the money is, and that's likely to split quite drastically between extremely high end pro photography and cameras for content creation (read video, thumbnail and instagram content) which won't be optimised for taking pictures at all. Not only will the mid-range not be on the high street, I would very much expect the midrange to disapear over the coming years as it loses profitability. I can actually see a future where Canon brings in a range of consumer devices like RED with no screen, no viewfinder, no mic etc. but lots of accessories and configurability, and those will likely come to the high street.

Unfortunately it's a bit of a feedback loop too. Lower availability will lead to fewer customers which will lead to lower availability which will lead to even fewer customers which will lead to reduced ranges and consolidation of manufacturers.
 

lustyd

EOS M50
May 4, 2022
47
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Digital killed local camera shops.
Arguably it was the lack of need for cameras that killed camera shops. Everyone already has a camera in their pocket all day every day, why would they buy another? The latest iPhone is not even comparable to the type of 35mm camera average consumers used to buy, multiple lenses, high definition, clear in focus images that they can send to their friends in seconds having already edited and processed them.
 
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USMarineCorpsVet

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What a wonderful and enlightening response.

Thank you.

Your humble opinion is at least the equal of mine.

And this is a rumor site! It is all supposed to be fun...and if I learn stuff along the way--winner winner chicken dinner!

To borrow a phrase from your side of the Atlantic (and olde England, in fact?!), the whole M vs R-S thing has me 'bollixed'.

I literally don't understand (actually, I think I do, sort) why so many here crap on the EF-M efforts by Canon...and am puzzled by the demand (?!) for the R7 etc.

...and writing this caused me to look up the entymology of bollix. Testicles?! My oh my you Brits!

bollix (v.)
"bungle, make a mess of," 1937, a respelling (perhaps euphemistic) of bollocks, from Old English beallucas "testicles," from Proto-Germanic *ball-, from PIE root *bhel- (2) "to blow, swell." From 1919 as an interjection, "nonsense!" Related: Bollixed; bollixing.
I think the question has been answered. Those buying Rebels and M cameras are not the type of people who even are aware a forum like this exists. Those here are very passionate about photography and skew to the higher end gear and technical specs.
 
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gregedwards69

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Apr 28, 2022
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What a wonderful and enlightening response.

Thank you.

Your humble opinion is at least the equal of mine.

And this is a rumor site! It is all supposed to be fun...and if I learn stuff along the way--winner winner chicken dinner!

To borrow a phrase from your side of the Atlantic (and olde England, in fact?!), the whole M vs R-S thing has me 'bollixed'.

I literally don't understand (actually, I think I do, sort) why so many here crap on the EF-M efforts by Canon...and am puzzled by the demand (?!) for the R7 etc.

...and writing this caused me to look up the entymology of bollix. Testicles?! My oh my you Brits!

bollix (v.)
"bungle, make a mess of," 1937, a respelling (perhaps euphemistic) of bollocks, from Old English beallucas "testicles," from Proto-Germanic *ball-, from PIE root *bhel- (2) "to blow, swell." From 1919 as an interjection, "nonsense!" Related: Bollixed; bollixing.
It is a shame that EF-M gets derided so much. Perhaps it's simple gear snobbery? Again, I've seen the same thing in guitar circles, looking down on the cheaper end of the market, such as Squier and Epiphone, when in fact they are turning out some wonderful instruments these days, but people just look at the price tag and assume it's crap. I used to play several higher-end instruments, but these days my favourite basses are both from the budget end of the market. Unlike cameras, the main cost difference between a low end and high-end instrument is the ratio of automated and handcrafting involved.

One would assume that camera price differences is largely down to the technology packed inside. But it's worth remembering that this technology trickles down to the lower end. Even the budget end of the market is arguably as good or in some cases better than the high end from a number of years ago. It wasn't exact;y high end at the time. but my humble EOS M5 pisses all over my old Dynax 7000i.

There is a place for products like EF-M. Partly, it's for casual users like me who perhaps sit below that"enthusiast" bracket I described. I like photography, but it's not my main passion and I know I don't take anywhere near the number of photos as I could but I want a versatile system for holidays. trips and specific scenarios, but otherwise, it's usually my phone that gets the snapshots. And like my guitars, these days I just can't justify anything more expensive for not a lot more return on my investment. That said, whilst I'm happy Canon is keeping EF-M going, I think its days are numbered. Once RF-S matures and the technology trickles down I think it will replace EF-M as the budget-conscious Canon MILC option. It will certainly be easier and more cost-effective for canon to produce cameras and lenses with a single mount.

------

FWIW. We tend to say bollocksed rather than Bollixed - I think the latter is more "urban". It's such a useful and versatile word and a testament to the evolution of the English language. It can be a curse word if you make a mistake (bollocks), if something is broken (bollocksed), a term for being drunk (I got absolutely bollocksed last night!), or exhausted (I'm completely bollocksed), work hard (I'm working my bollocks off here)or even an expression of how amazing something is (that's the dogs bollocks - aka mutts nuts, or poodles plums).

I'm not often patriotic, but we Brits are world leaders in colourful and creative flair with their swear words (with the possible exception of the Australians)!
 
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Canon will address the Cinema EOS lineup in August we have been told, we believe that we’ll see some 8K options for the lineup.
Looking forward to more news on this over the summer
 
Jul 12, 2013
426
915
It is a shame that EF-M gets derided so much. Perhaps it's simple gear snobbery? Again, I've seen the same thing in guitar circles, looking down on the cheaper end of the market, such as Squier and Epiphone, when in fact they are turning out some wonderful instruments these days, but people just look at the price tag and assume it's crap. I used to play several higher-end instruments, but these days my favourite basses are both from the budget end of the market. Unlike cameras, the main cost difference between a low end and high-end instrument is the ratio of automated and handcrafting involved.

One would assume that camera price differences is largely down to the technology packed inside. But it's worth remembering that this technology trickles down to the lower end. Even the budget end of the market is arguably as good or in some cases better than the high end from a number of years ago. It wasn't exact;y high end at the time. but my humble EOS M5 pisses all over my old Dynax 7000i.

There is a place for products like EF-M. Partly, it's for casual users like me who perhaps sit below that"enthusiast" bracket I described. I like photography, but it's not my main passion and I know I don't take anywhere near the number of photos as I could but I want a versatile system for holidays. trips and specific scenarios, but otherwise, it's usually my phone that gets the snapshots. And like my guitars, these days I just can't justify anything more expensive for not a lot more return on my investment. That said, whilst I'm happy Canon is keeping EF-M going, I think its days are numbered. Once RF-S matures and the technology trickles down I think it will replace EF-M as the budget-conscious Canon MILC option. It will certainly be easier and more cost-effective for canon to produce cameras and lenses with a single mount.

------

FWIW. We tend to say bollocksed rather than Bollixed - I think the latter is more "urban". It's such a useful and versatile word and a testament to the evolution of the English language. It can be a curse word if you make a mistake (bollocks), if something is broken (bollocksed), a term for being drunk (I got absolutely bollocksed last night!), or exhausted (I'm completely bollocksed), work hard (I'm working my bollocks off here)or even an expression of how amazing something is (that's the dogs bollocks - aka mutts nuts, or poodles plums).

I'm not often patriotic, but we Brits are world leaders in colourful and creative flair with their swear words (with the possible exception of the Australians)!
(Speaking of guitars and guitarists...!)

So Robert Fripp, here:

www.youtube.com logo


tinyurl.com/yck85377

...in the 'out-takes', is uttering the word 'bollocks' because he has made a mistake with his guitar? Perhaps he is a bit distracted. Thanks of the clarification!

I had an M5 but returned it--I prefer the smaller sized Ms as well as the M6 and M6MkII, both of which have the option of attaching an electronic viewfinder.

Volume-and-mass...are the advantages of the M format (as you say, for holidays and trips).

Our oldest daughter lived and worked in Oxford UK for nearly a decade (left due to Brexit-related policies).

Small cameras were the rule when we visited her and the European continent. I would be simply amazed if Canon ceded the small ILC market to their competitors.

She traveled to parts of Europe 'on holiday' several times...with Canon gear in hand, including the original M as well as the M10....most times with the tiny 22mm pancake attached. TBH, I bothered her a bit and asked to her to send lots of pictures. She did...and grew quite comfortable with the M (no previous DSLR experience). I never could get her to try a Rebel...she doesn't want to look like a tourist photographer.

And indeed, her vocabulary, upon her (permanent) return to the USA...is a bit more diverse than when she started at Oxford.
 
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gregedwards69

EOS M50
Apr 28, 2022
29
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(Speaking of guitars and guitarists...!)

So Robert Fripp, here:

www.youtube.com logo


tinyurl.com/yck85377

...in the 'out-takes', is uttering the word 'bollocks' because he has made a mistake with his guitar? Perhaps he is a bit distracted. Thanks of the clarification!

I had an M5 but returned it--I prefer the smaller sized Ms as well as the M6 and M6MkII, both of which have the option of attaching an electronic viewfinder.

Volume-and-mass...are the advantages of the M format (as you say, for holidays and trips).

Our oldest daughter lived and worked in Oxford UK for nearly a decade (left due to Brexit-related policies).

Small cameras were the rule when we visited her and the European continent. I would be simply amazed if Canon ceded the small ILC market to their competitors.

She traveled to parts of Europe 'on holiday' several times...with Canon gear in hand, including the original M as well as the M10....most times with the tiny 22mm pancake attached. TBH, I bothered her a bit and asked to her to send lots of pictures. She did...and grew quite comfortable with the M (no previous DSLR experience). I never could get her to try a Rebel...she doesn't want to look like a tourist photographer.

And indeed, her vocabulary, upon her (permanent) return to the USA...is a bit more diverse than when she started at Oxford.
My first M was the M3 and I quickly added the EVF after realising how cumbersome the camera could sometimes be without a viewfinder when I took it on my honeymoon, which was the first time I got to use it extensively. It was a very useful little accessory and made the M3 quite compact without it attached whilst paired with the 22mm. But in the long run, I found using the EVF a bit of a faff - having to remove it every time I wanted to take a selfie or use the hot-shoe. I was always worried it would get knocked off and I'd lose it as well. This is one of the reasons I replaced it with the M5 (as well as the improved AF, touch and drag, and improved connectivity).

As I've mentioned on another thread, I'm tempted to pick up a used original M, or maybe an M100 for a more compact pocketable solution. But TBH, it's more a "want" than anything purposeful. I use my iPhone for everyday snapshots rather than get my camera out.

You might be onto something about Europeans' preference for more compact travel cameras. I certainly feel more comfortable carrying my stuff in a small unmarked shoulder bag than toting a large branded gadget bag around that screams "rob me". And being such a diverse continent, we often take short city breaks and travel quite light, usually hand luggage only. I also wonder if European style, fashion and culture come into play, the preference for a compact system that fits better with these sensibilities. (admittedly, I love the looks of Fuji gear, partly for this reason). And I rarely see a white L series lens outside of a press pit on TV. Perhaps I'm making a sweeping generalisation but you don't see many tourists wearing those flack jackets things in Europe, stuffed to the gills with every accessory they own. Is this more of a US thing, or a cliché that doesn't really exist?

Consider as well, perhaps due to the prevalence of smartphones, people are not that bothered if you point a small camera at them in public. Point a big lensed DSLR at them and they are a lot less comfortable, sometimes very defensive. There's also a rise in some tourist sites banning tripods and 'professional photography'. Unfortunately, this is usually policed by non-photographers who think a big camera = professional. They'd likely baulk at an entry-level Rebel!
 
Jul 12, 2013
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My first M was the M3 and I quickly added the EVF after realising how cumbersome the camera could sometimes be without a viewfinder when I took it on my honeymoon, which was the first time I got to use it extensively. It was a very useful little accessory and made the M3 quite compact without it attached whilst paired with the 22mm. But in the long run, I found using the EVF a bit of a faff - having to remove it every time I wanted to take a selfie or use the hot-shoe. I was always worried it would get knocked off and I'd lose it as well. This is one of the reasons I replaced it with the M5 (as well as the improved AF, touch and drag, and improved connectivity).

As I've mentioned on another thread, I'm tempted to pick up a used original M, or maybe an M100 for a more compact pocketable solution. But TBH, it's more a "want" than anything purposeful. I use my iPhone for everyday snapshots rather than get my camera out.

You might be onto something about Europeans' preference for more compact travel cameras. I certainly feel more comfortable carrying my stuff in a small unmarked shoulder bag than toting a large branded gadget bag around that screams "rob me". And being such a diverse continent, we often take short city breaks and travel quite light, usually hand luggage only. I also wonder if European style, fashion and culture come into play, the preference for a compact system that fits better with these sensibilities. (admittedly, I love the looks of Fuji gear, partly for this reason). And I rarely see a white L series lens outside of a press pit on TV. Perhaps I'm making a sweeping generalisation but you don't see many tourists wearing those flack jackets things in Europe, stuffed to the gills with every accessory they own. Is this more of a US thing, or a cliché that doesn't really exist?

Consider as well, perhaps due to the prevalence of smartphones, people are not that bothered if you point a small camera at them in public. Point a big lensed DSLR at them and they are a lot less comfortable, sometimes very defensive. There's also a rise in some tourist sites banning tripods and 'professional photography'. Unfortunately, this is usually policed by non-photographers who think a big camera = professional. They'd likely baulk at an entry-level Rebel!
All good points.

It is really really difficult to analyze/generalize/offer opinions about camera usage in the USA, except that, as you say, cellphone camera sensors and the software that drives them have greatly improved....and supply 'good-enough' snapshots for most people.

I've offered variations of the following opinion here on CR previously:

...with family (and extended family), I've visited Disney World (Orlando) more times than I care to admit.

The last few times we visited the parks, my park-walking camera gear has included an M body and 2 EF-M lenses, occasionally with one additional EF lens and the necessary adapter--35mm F2 IS (for pix inside the attractions).

Sometimes I ask my wife to pack the 35mm F2 lens in her backpack...because the M body/lens + one extra lens + two extra batteries all fit nicely inside of a smallish bag that attaches to me via a belt-loop.

I have taken notice of the gear that other Disney visitors use--very very few full-frame bodies, a few Rebels and the analogues...and for about a decade now: phones phones phones, seemingly, at times, to the exclusion of ALL MILCs (and point-and-shoot cameras, for that matter).

I don't know how accurate a barometer Disney World is as far as camera usage in the USA is concerned...but I feel confident in guessing that more pictures are 'taken' in the Disney parks, on most days, than any other venue in the entire world.

I've always felt confident that my go-to Disney rig: an M body mated to the 11-22mm IS EF-M lens... put me in a good place as far as acquiring high-quality images and videos...while still enjoying the park. The 11-22 lens is the killer app as far as EF-M is concerned.

Other options with other manufacturers exist...many of these are much pricier solutions.

So now I read here the likely supposition that the emergin R format (including R-S) is going to result in the demise of M.

My oh my.
 
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