Is a dedicated astrophotography EOS R coming in 2019? [CR1]

Chaitanya · Jun 3, 2019

That certainly would be interesting. Hope it gets a proper cooling added on. Its been a long time between 60Da and this rumoured camera.

CanonFanBoy · Jun 3, 2019

Had a feeling this might be the head scratcher. I almost bought a 60Da when I was in Nevada. Billions of stars right outside my door. Here in DFW, it wouldn't be wise for me to purchase.

Question: Are there other uses for these cameras besides astro photography?

cayenne · Jun 3, 2019

What are the special properties of a dedicated astral photography camera?

MrFotoFool · Jun 3, 2019

This could be a very smart move on their part. Astrophotography is more popular than ever thanks to advancements in dedicated software. It would also give prospective buyers a reason to invest in Canon R instead of Nikon Z (assuming Nikon does not come out with something similar).

Josh Leavitt · Jun 3, 2019

Sounds believable to me. There are plenty of other applicable genres for an ultra low-light capable camera beyond astrophotography - the most obvious being video (e.g. Sony A7S II). Canon demonstrated their 35MMFHDXSCA sensor a while back; that was their 2.7MP 41mmx24mm sensor with enormous 19 micrometer pixels at 1.1 million electron per lux per second sensitivity.

I don't think an EOS Ra would need to be anywhere near that sensitive, but if they made it 12-13.5MP on full-frame, then that's still a 8-9 micrometer photodiode size (which is plenty large). And that might also give it the possibility of uncropped 4k recording (with competitive frame rates) with only 12-13.5 million pixels to readout.

preppyak · Jun 3, 2019

Josh Leavitt said:
Sounds believable to me. There are plenty of other applicable genres for an ultra low-light capable camera beyond astrophotography - the most obvious being video (e.g. Sony A7S II). Canon demonstrated their 35MMFHDXSCA sensor a while back; that was their 2.7MP 41mmx24mm sensor with enormous 19 micrometer pixels at 1.1 million electron per lux per second sensitivity.

I don't think an EOS Ra would need to be anywhere near that sensitive, but if they made it 12-13.5MP on full-frame, then that's still a 8-9 micrometer photodiode size (which is plenty large). And that might also give it the possibility of uncropped 4k recording (with competitive frame rates) with only 12-13.5 million pixels to readout.

If you know the history of the XXa cameras, they were almost always just the same sensor and body as the camera, but with the infared filter modified. Which means two things...one, its not particularly great as a day-to-day camera because the color balance is now messed up...and two, its a highly niche camera targeting a very specific audience. One that, as CR points out, is gonna be perplexed by the lack of an RF astro lens to complement this.

Maybe Canon will introduce a completely new sensor and style with this camera...but since they havent for either of the R cameras so far...and because this camera will inherently be a super niche camera, Id be very surpsied to see that. I'd expect an EOS R with a modified IR filter at about a 30% price premium.

Sharlin · Jun 3, 2019

cayenne said:
What are the special properties of a dedicated astral photography camera?

The most important property is a modified IR filter that lets more deep-red and near-IR light through, especially the important H-alpha wavelength. I think this is the only difference between the 60D and 60Da; the 20Da also added Live View which the 20D lacked, as CRG mentioned. But the "a" versions were fully general-purpose cameras in other respects, with the same features as their siblings.

Besides broader-spectrum sensitivity, extremely low noise characteristics are very desirable, especially when it comes to thermal noise during exposures that might stretch anywhere from minutes to hours. High-end exclusive astro cameras often have active Peltier coolers, capable of cooling the sensor to subzero temperatures. Dedicated astro sensors are also purely monochromatic, without a Bayer filter in the way absorbing precious photons. Separate exposures with different bandpass filters are used to composite color images.

amorse · Jun 3, 2019

That would certainly make me scratch my head. No doubt astrophotography is more popular than ever, but I can't imagine that the market of those tinkering with astrophotography is large enough to justify a body like this. I think Canon even said that the 60Da was unsuitable for regular photography because of the IR filter set up.

Certainly anecdotal, but for many of the people I see doing astrophotogrpahy, it is only part of what they're shooting and not all of it. Likely hard to justify a dedicated astrophotography camera for many potential customers. And for those who are willing to buy a dedicated astro camera, I suspect that they may not need or want a full frame - most seem to be using cropped sensor cameras on trackers and the bulk of the investment goes into the telescope it is mounted to. I wonder if the image circle in those telescopes is large enough for a full frame sensor? No idea admittedly.

I am indeed scratching my head.

Wardenmsp · Jun 3, 2019

There’s a good-sized class of astrophotographers who feel that “If you can see the ground, it’s not an astrophotograph.” Their targets are deep sky objects - galaxies, nebulae, etc. They use dedicated cameras, not usable for terrestrial photography, but which have the crucial characteristic of a cooled sensor (often down to -10 or -20C). That’s because their exposures are often tens of minutes! Think of the noise....

I guess I’m not sure who an XXa camera is for?

Wardenmsp · Jun 3, 2019

To put this in perspective, it’s not uncommon for a dedicated astrophotography camera to include an APS-C sensor, cooled, for about $1K.

Wardenmsp · Jun 3, 2019

For the record, some of these cameras are Bayer-matrix color. In fact, I’ve got one (a ZWO ASI071) that uses the same sensor as the Nikon D700 but has a Peltier cooler on the back.

One of the other posters made a good comment - the real investment is in the mount, even more than the telescope.

miketcool · Jun 3, 2019

I shot this on my Canon EOS R using the RF 35mm F/1.8 STM lens stopped down to F/2.0 for coma.

I would love to get more latitude on both ends of the light spectrum with the sensor. It would also be great to have a dedicated intervalometer for ramping holy grail timelapses. Some other features could be an internal closure for the eyepiece to block light, dedicated color temperatures for night skies, a better way to regulate sensor temperature, a simple process that takes blackout frames for noise compensation in camera, a night-mode for all screens, better battery performance (think ability to connect to a battery pack), improved infinity focus peaking, and illuminated or glowing buttons externally.

I think Canon's biggest hurdle is lenses as almost all their fast primes exhibit the annoying coma aberration. I saw this at f/1.8 on the 35mm lens in my most recent tests. It's Milky Way season this week, and this news is exciting!

LDS · Jun 3, 2019

amorse said:
I wonder if the image circle in those telescopes is large enough for a full frame sensor?

IIRC 5"-8" Schmidt-Cassegrain telescope easily fill a 35mm film - larger 11"-14" one could fill 70mm film - so I believe there will be little issues in using a FF sensor. I don't know today how many 30Mpx astro cameras are available at what could be an R camera price point.

While you one could do better science with a cooled monochromatic camera and filters, for those just after images it could work and be less expensive.

SUNDOG04 · Jun 3, 2019

MrFotoFool said:
This could be a very smart move on their part. Astrophotography is more popular than ever thanks to advancements in dedicated software. It would also give prospective buyers a reason to invest in Canon R instead of Nikon Z (assuming Nikon does not come out with something similar).

I am not in the market to change or buy new gear, but, I do like what I see with Nikon Z.

Pape · Jun 3, 2019

Sounds like canon is ******* if they start tinkering something unimportant like that on middle of mirrorless revolution ,when peoples wait top camera for top RF lenses

crazyrunner33 · Jun 3, 2019

The market could be bigger than we are giving credit for. When browsing the rental sites, I see a lot of modified bodies for astrophotography.

unfocused · Jun 3, 2019

This sounds plausible. But, then, that's the hallmark of most CR1 rumors. It's hard to tell if they are based on actual information, or just on some plausible assumptions. (Disclaimer: Not all CR1s are plausible, I know).

Not sure Canon would consider the lack of dedicated lenses a problem. They certainly didn't let that stop them with the 60Da. Most people are assuming it would be a modified R body, but if Canon is trying to hit a price point, it could be a modified RPa, which would be more consistent with the 60Da. I know nothing about astrophotography, but it seems like I see two genres most frequently: Photos taken through a telescope, where lenses would be irrelevant, and wide shots of star trails or time lapse. Given the broad range of full frame wide to normal lenses available from Canon in either EF or R mount, it makes sense that the body would be full frame.

Mt Spokane Photography · Jun 3, 2019

Its a quick and cheap option to offer and to boost sales. Different IR filter, different badge, and modified firmware. Canon wants to push out mirrorless into the mainstream and to sell lenses.