Is RED about to announce the first RF mount video camera?

BeenThere · Jul 28, 2019

Beating Canon to an RF mount video camera would be interesting.

uri.raz · Jul 28, 2019

RED already reverse engineered the RF protocols? That was quick...

privatebydesign · Jul 28, 2019

uri.raz said:
RED already reverse engineered the RF protocols? That was quick...

Canon will license their lens protocols if you want to pay the price. Red are the kind of company that will pay the price and Canon are willing to license to. If Canon can get lens acceptance into a wider range of video cameras being used by high end shooters they expand their own C line market.

Tom W · Jul 28, 2019

Interesting....

Antono Refa · Jul 28, 2019

privatebydesign said:
Canon will license their lens protocols if you want to pay the price. Red are the kind of company that will pay the price and Canon are willing to license to.

IIRC, it was posted on this site that Canon will license it to Japanese companies only, e.g. not Zeiss. AFAIK, RED is a U.S. company.

C Tographer · Jul 28, 2019

We don't know if Red licensed the RF mount, or just reverse engineered it.

Either way, Red is taking away some of Canon's thunder by releasing the world's first RF video camera.

From the photos, the Red Komodo appears to have a smaller Super 35 sensor, not full-frame. That points to it being a video camera, not a stills camera.

CanonFanBoy · Jul 28, 2019

Antono Refa said:
IIRC, it was posted on this site that Canon will license it to Japanese companies only, e.g. not Zeiss. AFAIK, RED is a U.S. company.

But may license it to Cosina ( Headquartered in ‎Nakano, Japan), which manufactures all Zeiss lenses in Japan. From B&H: "Though no longer physically manufactured in Germany, the current offerings from Zeiss are manufactured in Japan under the supervision of Zeiss technicians whose job it is maintain a century old reputation of building the finest optics. "

Cosina also makes lenses for Leica, Nikon, Sony, Pentax, and some Canon EOS EF/EFs lenses.

There are Zeiss lenses with Canon mounts. Red is an American company.

CanonFanBoy · Jul 28, 2019

C Tographer said:
We don't know if Red licensed the RF mount, or just reverse engineered it.

Either way, Red is taking away some of Canon's thunder by releasing the world's first RF video camera.

From the photos, the Red Komodo appears to have a smaller Super 35 sensor, not full-frame. That points to it being a video camera, not a stills camera.

Red is an American company (Irvine, CA). If reverse engineered and unlicensed, they have violated patent laws. They licensed the mount. The movie houses like Canon glass.

BTW: Red is suing Sony (still ongoing) over violating some of it's 4K tech patents (3 of them). The suit (filed in 2013) demands Sony not only stop using the tech Red invented, but also destroy all cameras manufactured with it. Uh oh.

"What's interesting about this case is that patent issues or licensing could be one of the reasons most companies have not tackled RAW compression in their motion picture cameras. Canon and Arri are both sending out uncompressed RAW to third-party recorders (and avoiding recording internally altogether), and Blackmagic, Digital Bolex, Ikonoskop, and Aaton are all recording uncompressed CinemaDNG internally to SSDs. CinemaDNG is an open format from Adobe, but recently they developed a compressed JPEG option for their stills DNG archive format. We'll see if that finds its way into motion cameras and if that development potentially infringes on any RED patents." (year 2013 for perspective) https://nofilmschool.com/2013/02/red-ceo-jim-jannard-lawsuit-sony-raw-compression

Red has been in 4K since 2005.

Speculation: Maybe Red and Canon are exchanging licenses? Give us your RF mount and we'll give you some 4K tech. Revenge by Red? What better way to destroy Red's (and Canon's) nemesis? Especially if those patents by RED are running out soon. RED doesn't make lenses. RED makes mounts available for Canon, Nikon, Leica, and ARRI PL. No Sony mount is offered by RED.

Yes, I am aware that the suit has to do with movie cameras but still....

So for those who say Canon could do what Sony has done in it's mirrorless cameras, maybe so. But maybe Canon has had trouble bringing something to market due to patent issues. More kudos to Canon for not stealing tech as RED alleges Sony to have done. Untwist yer pantaloons.

miketcool · Jul 29, 2019

Red and Canon merger?

CanonFanBoy · Jul 29, 2019

miketcool said:
Red and Canon merger?

Doubtful.

LDS · Jul 29, 2019

CanonFanBoy said:
If reverse engineered and unlicensed, they have violated patent laws

Did Canon patent the RF mount and protocol? Because if so when the patent expires anybody can make RF lenses and use the protocol for free. If Canon didn't patent it, patent laws don't apply.

Chaitanya · Jul 29, 2019

CanonFanBoy said:
Red is an American company (Irvine, CA). If reverse engineered and unlicensed, they have violated patent laws. They licensed the mount. The movie houses like Canon glass.

BTW: Red is suing Sony (still ongoing) over violating some of it's 4K tech patents (3 of them). The suit (filed in 2013) demands Sony not only stop using the tech Red invented, but also destroy all cameras manufactured with it. Uh oh. "What's interesting about this case is that patent issues or licensing could be one of the reasons most companies have not tackled RAW compression in their motion picture cameras. Canon and Arri are both sending out uncompressed RAW to third-party recorders (and avoiding recording internally altogether), and Blackmagic, Digital Bolex, Ikonoskop, and Aaton are all recording uncompressed CinemaDNG internally to SSDs. CinemaDNG is an open format from Adobe, but recently they developed a compressed JPEG option for their stills DNG archive format. We'll see if that finds its way into motion cameras and if that development potentially infringes on any RED patents." (year 2013 for perspective) https://nofilmschool.com/2013/02/red-ceo-jim-jannard-lawsuit-sony-raw-compression

Red has been in 4K since 2005.

Speculation: Maybe Red and Canon are exchanging licenses? Give us your RF mount and we'll give you some 4K tech. Revenge by Red? What better way to destroy Red's (and Canon's) nemesis? Especially if those patents by RED are running out soon. RED doesn't make lenses. RED makes mounts available for Canon, Nikon, Leica, and ARRI PL. No Sony mount is offered by RED.

Yes, I am aware that the suit has to do with movie cameras but still....

So for those who say Canon could do what Sony has done in it's mirrorless cameras, maybe so. But maybe Canon has had trouble bringing something to market due to patent issues. More kudos to Canon for not stealing tech as RED alleges Sony to have done. Untwist yer pantaloons.

Even if the patents would be running out(apprx 20 years from the date they are awarded) the lawsuits have been filed long for infringing products while they had their IP. So Sony still would be liable to pay massive damages caused with infringing on IP. It certainly would a big blow as Sony would have to issue a recall on discontinued products and pay fines for each non returned products which could certainly put a massive dent in Sony's pocket.

C Tographer · Jul 29, 2019

Maybe Sony wants to be the last camera company in the world.

The camera market was killed by the smartphone market, but most of the tiny cameras inside those smartphones are made by Sony. Sony has eaten everyone elses lunch.

So if Canon + Red teamed up to battle against Sony, then let the show begin.

LDS · Jul 29, 2019

C Tographer said:
but most of the tiny cameras inside those smartphones are made by Sony

Apple just bought the Intel cellular modem business. And it already designs its own ARM CPUs. Just wait it decides it needs to control its own imaging sensors...

Kit. · Jul 29, 2019

C Tographer said:
The camera market was killed by the smartphone market, but most of the tiny cameras inside those smartphones are made by Sony.

Quite a lot are made by Samsung.

CanonFanBoy · Jul 29, 2019

LDS said:
Did Canon patent the RF mount and protocol? Because if so when the patent expires anybody can make RF lenses and use the protocol for free. If Canon didn't patent it, patent laws don't apply.

I have no idea. I do think it is interesting RED doesn't offer anything in a Sony mount. I don't know if they ever have.

Trey T · Jul 29, 2019

So Jarred Land could simply say, fake news.

crazyrunner33 · Jul 29, 2019

Kit. said:
Quite a lot are made by Samsung.

Correct, market split is pretty even. Sony had to hit the smart phone market to keep up with Samsung. Samsung tossed away their camera division and threw all their eggs into the smartphone basket.

jayphotoworks · Jul 29, 2019

CanonFanBoy said:
I have no idea. I do think it is interesting RED doesn't offer anything in a Sony mount. I don't know if they ever have.

They've never had a Sony mount. They've offered mounts in Canon, Nikon, Leica M, PL, but not Sony. The Leica M mount (which doesn't support all lenses) is 28mm which is almost physically at the limit for the existing design, far away from the 18mm E mount. I'm curious if their eventual DSMC3 will support the newer mirrorless mount FFDs, but I'm really surprised that RED will have the first RF cine cam before even Canon. But there has been rumblings in the news of a potential partnership with RED and Foxconn to eventually create 8K cameras at 1/3 of the current prices, and maybe there has been a push to move into lower cost professional cine cams in general, not just with Foxconn.

But a few things will be certain.. After you pre-order it, expect to wait at least 12+ months to actually get it in your hands and if you want HDMI/XLR or even a display, it will be at least another $2-3k USD. If you think about it, what portion of video shooters actually have a stable of RF lenses to get started right away? I would have thought an E mount would have probably have been a better bet, but probably out of the question with the RED/Sony spat ongoing.. but anyhow, RED has a specific audience and will probably not have an appreciable impact on the mainstream camera market.

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