canon rumors FORUM

Gear Talk => Third Party Manufacturers => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on April 09, 2013, 06:23:38 PM

Title: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: Canon Rumors on April 09, 2013, 06:23:38 PM
An EF mount 4K cinema camera
For the second year in a row, the biggest buzz from the show has come from Blackmagic Design (you’re a close second Freefly).

Last year they launched a 2.5K cinema camera that has been plagued with availability issues. People that have got their hands on one seem to genuinely like the camera. Although there are still a lot of people that have been frustrated by their inability to get one.

This year Blackmagic Design launched two new cameras, a compact cinema camera for $995 and the very exciting 4K camera for under $4000. The camera itself has a Super 35 sensor and has a global shutter, which eliminates the rolling shutter frustration.

From Blackmagic Design “Shoot Ultra HD TV or 4K feature films with the new Blackmagic Production Camera 4K. You get a large Super 35 size sensor with professional global shutter combined with precision EF mount optics, high quality visually lossless compressed CinemaDNG RAW and Apple ProRes 422 (HQ)™ file recording for a complete self contained solution. The built in touchscreen lets you monitor, change settings and enter metadata directly on the camera!”

I spent a half an hour or so with Blackmagic Design along with my friend Mitch from Planet5D. It was a good talk and has changed my view of Blackmagic Design and how successful I think they can be.

First up, the production issues of the first camera. The company feels those are behind them, they’ve learned a lot from the issues. The first camera had issues with sensor production, one of the only a handful of parts inside the camera that Blackmagic Design doesn’t manufacture themselves. For the last year, they have had an abundance of camera bodies without sensors inside them. The new sensor comes from a new supplier and they’ve made sure they are going to be able to meet demand. Blackmagic Design wouldn’t tell us who that manufacturer was at the time of writing this, as they don’t feel it matters to consumers where the sensor comes from. As long as they can produce them, and the camera gives good results, who cares? I agree with that point, but I do appreciate the passion of camera lovers.

That being said, the speculation is the sensor is made by CMOSIS , as it shares some physical similarities to the Leica M sensor. CMOSIS also makes a Super35 sensor that is in the Apertus camera.

The camera will only be available in EF mount, as the distance to the sensor prevents a PL mount version of the camera. The image circle is also too big for Micro 4/3 lenses.

The camera is slated for release in July, so there should be decent stock of them in August if what were told today about product was true.

This may not be the only cinema camera you own, but it’s shaping up to be one a lot of people with add to the kit. At under $4000, it’s almost a no brainer. One may appear in my camera bag, so I can continue to make bad movies, but at 4K resolution!

Thanks for your time Blackmagic Design.

Visit Blackmagic Design | Preorder the Blackmagic Production Camera 4K $3995

cr

Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: Daniel Flather on April 09, 2013, 06:32:55 PM
make bad movies, but at 4K resolution!

'Nuff said.
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: Canon Rumors on April 09, 2013, 06:35:46 PM
make bad movies, but at 4K resolution!

'Nuff said.

I might get better one day. :)
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: Daniel Flather on April 09, 2013, 06:38:58 PM
make bad movies, but at 4K resolution!

'Nuff said.

I might get better one day. :)

I keep the videos just for family events, nothing else.  My videos are quite rough too.
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: BruinBear on April 09, 2013, 07:18:28 PM
Wonder how the video quality will compare to a 1DC
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: ktabes on April 09, 2013, 07:27:30 PM
The Blackmagic pocketcam also looks like a neat tool to add. A 1000 bucks is kinda cool.
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: DarkKnightNine on April 09, 2013, 07:45:01 PM
Let's hope Canon is paying attention, because THIS is how you innovate!
You offer a camera that is much better than your previous model with features that your most discerning customers want and that won't make it obsolete in a year or two. Features that look to the future like Thunderbolt I/O and 4K video capture. And then you offer it at a price that makes your competitors' heads spin. Bravo to BlackMagic for showing the big boys how it's done. This is the company that RED Digital Cinema should have been but alas they've become just like all the rest.
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on April 09, 2013, 07:49:46 PM
Let's hope Canon is paying attention, because THIS is how you innovate!
You offer a camera that is much better than your previous model with features that your most discerning customers want and that won't make it obsolete in a year or two. Features that look to the future like Thunderbolt I/O and 4K video capture. And then you offer it at a price that makes your competitors' heads spin. Bravo to BlackMagic for showing the big boys how it's done. This is the company that RED Digital Cinema should have been but alas they've become just like all the rest.

sad thing is Canon could've easily been here and had it all locked up, instead they are run by short-sighted and highly conservative bean counter these days who keep the engineers in a dungeon and give them a little bread and water if they are good.
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: that1guyy on April 09, 2013, 08:58:37 PM
Makes the Canon C line look like a pile of turd. Who in their right mind would buy a C300 or 1DC with this?
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: infared on April 09, 2013, 09:07:25 PM
OK...today Blackmagic has hijacked the topic at all of my camera blogs....even my MFT blogs...I am a still shooter and have no desire to shoot video...and not much understanding about it...but from what I have seen the Blackmagic units blow away the 5DIII in the video dept..no contest (correct???).I am just curious...how do Canon's expensive cinema specific cameras hold up to the Blackmagic units???
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: Normalnorm on April 09, 2013, 09:43:28 PM
Bravo to BlackMagic for showing the big boys how it's done. This is the company that RED Digital Cinema should have been but alas they've become just like all the rest.

Is it possible that they underestimated how expensive it is to innovate?
We have all had conversations about "how cheap the parts for gear are and how come someone doesn't put it together and show the big boys"
When the real world intrudes one finds things are priced where they are for a reason.
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: cayenne on April 09, 2013, 09:56:47 PM
The Blackmagic pocketcam also looks like a neat tool to add. A 1000 bucks is kinda cool.

THAT was the one that caught MY attention!!!

I'm thinking for under a grand, this is going to likely be my immediate 2nd camera for video...that with my 5D3 will work great for shoots I would think.

I need to research the MFT lenses tho...on the site BM seems to promote them as plentiful in manufacture and focal lengths, etc.

All I know about are Canon EF lenses...so, needing to know what to find, how much this set of lenses will be and what focal lengths would be best to start with....

I did note that this mini BM camera, has powered MFT..which the original camera apparently does not..so, on the original, there is no auto iris adjustment....

I'm wondering on this mini too..since it is powered..is there an adapter for MFT to EF canon lenses..so I might could use some of the glass I currently have on the new mini BM camera.

Can anyone give me links or a small primer on MFT mounts, how they differ from EF...and what focal lengths work on it vs my 5D3?

Thanks in advance,

cayenne
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on April 09, 2013, 10:07:09 PM
Who else remembers Super VHS?  I bought a SVHS camcorder back in the 1980's as well as a couple of AG series Panasonic recorders and editing console for personal use.  Even though the eventual output was VHS, I wanted to do editing with the best possible original material.  (I also have a really old 1/2 inch? Sony recorder out in storage, I need to fire it up and see if it still works.  I bet someone somewhere needs one to play or transfer those old tapes)
 
That stuff was totally obsolete in a few years.
 
I no longer do video, except to play with short clips, I don't have the patience for it, so I admire those who do.
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: Andy_Hodapp on April 09, 2013, 10:44:25 PM
Let me just get this straight, so it has the same sensor size as the 5D Mkiii and only costs $500 more at there releases and it shoots 4K raw...
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: KyleSTL on April 09, 2013, 10:48:41 PM
Let me just get this straight, so it has the same sensor size as the 5D Mkiii and only costs $500 more at there releases and it shoots 4K raw...
Close, with one very important correction: Super 35mm is a film format that is approximately APS-C size.
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: Andy_Hodapp on April 09, 2013, 10:56:34 PM
Let me just get this straight, so it has the same sensor size as the 5D Mkiii and only costs $500 more at there releases and it shoots 4K raw...
Close, with one very important correction: Super 35mm is a film format that is approximately APS-C size.

I was thinking that but then I saw the part about it sharing stuff with the new Leica
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: Mantanuska on April 10, 2013, 12:35:11 AM
Interesting, I always thought super 35 was full frame. Looks like its more like APS-C
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: SpaceGhost on April 10, 2013, 12:39:30 AM
No 60P, no deal.

Sure this has a lot of great items, but 4k is not the only buzzword I care about.

M
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: Nishi Drew on April 10, 2013, 01:08:04 AM
No 60P, no deal.

Sure this has a lot of great items, but 4k is not the only buzzword I care about.

M

Yeah that's a disappointment, still the Pocket version is very intriguing for the price, 422, lossy RAW and all that DR. 60FPS for the smooth slow mo would be great, but again for that price and for being mFT anyways, the GH3 is an overall stronger package for all sorts of video work.
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: Nishi Drew on April 10, 2013, 01:21:44 AM
OK...today Blackmagic has hijacked the topic at all of my camera blogs....even my MFT blogs...I am a still shooter and have no desire to shoot video...and not much understanding about it...but from what I have seen the Blackmagic units blow away the 5DIII in the video dept..no contest (correct???).I am just curious...how do Canon's expensive cinema specific cameras hold up to the Blackmagic units???

The Canon Cinema cameras are good, but are they (in comparison to say the BMCC 4K) $2K ~ $6K better? Well, for all the outputs and controls you get the Canons aren't bad, but in terms of dynamic range, uncompressed RAW with pro res 422 (awesome codecs for editing in post) and likely retaining sharp detail with no moire (the previous BMCC doesn't seem to have any issues with that) the BMCC is just so much more awesome, and look now it's got 4K with a super 35mm sensor and it's a global shutter! I don't think any of the Canons have a global shutter, so they will all suffer from skewed images when panning or shooting fast action. And the BMCC  already has an electronic EF mount too so for strict video work there's no reason to get the 5DIII unless stills are a main as well. Which, it is for me sadly, now the 5DIII isn't a slouch for video, it may be soft and not give options for glorious codecs and data output, but people have been using the system like they did with the 5DII with good results, but looks like I will be needing 60FPS at 1080P for upcoming work and neither system cuts it, Panasonic wins the cake with their GH3 again, and the GH2 is still better for all around in that regard!

So, to keep things simple, the 5D line for video is a thing of the past, the Canon Cinema cameras are overpriced for what the competition is delivering (overpriced can be used for many things but in this case it is very relevant). 4K may not have much use as even 720P can live on, but for editing, shooting in 4k and then exporting at 2K or even 1080P could mean near flawless IQ compared to 1080P only cameras, especially if you can edit in uncompressed RAW
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: bvukich on April 10, 2013, 01:33:04 AM
I'm not all that interested in Video (well not at all honestly), but this still is pretty cool.

One thing that really strikes me, is the price.  More precisely the price compared to a 4k display.  You can get three of these for the cost of the cheapest 4k display.   I just find that amazing.
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: Radiating on April 10, 2013, 02:31:56 AM
Bravo to BlackMagic for showing the big boys how it's done. This is the company that RED Digital Cinema should have been but alas they've become just like all the rest.

Is it possible that they underestimated how expensive it is to innovate?
We have all had conversations about "how cheap the parts for gear are and how come someone doesn't put it together and show the big boys"
When the real world intrudes one finds things are priced where they are for a reason.

Bodies are easy to make, lenses are the hard part.

The problem with Canon is that they jerk their customers around too much with bodies. 18 MP on APS-C for what 4-5 years now? No 4k video on a professional DSLR like the 5D Mark III or the 1DX?

Canon is well known to drag it's feet with innovation, they have lenses and bodies that all their competitors from Zeiss, to Nikon to Sigma to Tamron have positivly nuked.

The 35mm Sigma has 2.5 stops better resolution that the 35mm Canon.

The 50mm Zeiss has 5 stops better resolution than the Canon 50mm 1.4 or 50mm 1.2L.

The Nikon 80-400mm has a 5 stop resolution advantage over the ridiculously old Canon 100-400mm.

The Nikon D800 nukes Canon in the megapixel department, the Sony NEX melts face off the Canon EOS M in every dimension.

How about the 14-24mm f/2.8 too?

Now the Black Magic cameras has mostly demolish Canon's video cameras. Not having RAW video is like not having RAW in photography. Canon's 1DC doesn't do raw video, and neither does Canon's c100 or c300 so for video those are the dinky point and shoots and nowhere near the quality of this camera. Canon's primary serious entry into video is their $25,000 c500, and that camera isn't full frame, it's super 35mm just like the Black Magic 4k. So BMC just released a $4,000 camera that goes toe to toe (and probably beats) Canon's $25,000 camera, which amounts to making the whole Canon cinema line up obsolete.

In fact the only reasons why Canon is still relevant are the 24-70mm f/2.8 II and the 5D Mark III, their supertelephotos and tilt shift lenses.

Don't get me wrong I used to be a huge fan of Canon and loved them and constantly sang their praises... when they actually had innovative products. Now they are just a creaky old rotting corpse that releases overpriced products that are obsolete before they hit shelves. T5i anyone?

Their only saving grace for innovation is the fact that Sigma and Tamron make lenses for them.

Canon is an embarassment and they deserve it for sitting around and developing ridiculous products like the 70-300mm DO, touch screen DSLR's, t5i, a zooming fish eye to cover APS-C and full frame in one lens (wow), their cinema lenses which are L lenses with slight modifications and 3 times the price. 1DC which is just a modified 1DX for twice the price (why did the 1DX not include all the 1DC features?), worthless EOS M that autofocuses like a joke, 18mp sensor with terrible focusing abbility in video mode (no pro video guys even use autofocus).

Canon needs to learn that one thing sells cameras. Good core products that push the bleeding edge of technology. Canon has paid zero attention to their core products in the last 3 years. Even their best body and lens the 5D Mark III and 24-70mm II were both afterthoughts. The 5D Mark III was finished a year before it was released and Canon sat on it, to milk people on 5D Mark II inventory according to official sources, and the 24-70mm II was ONLY released for no other reason than to stop constant 24-70mm I warranty claims due to copy variation and extreme decentering.

Canon's attention to it's core products has been a joke. The only semi decent core product they released in recent memory was the 1DX and then that was gimped so they could sell more cinema products which were obsolete months after they hit shelves with products like the Black Magic cameras.

Canon's product development is a sad mismanaged joke and the writing on the wall is getting ever clearer, especially combined with their new ultra greedy pricing designed to alienate customers.
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: gecko on April 10, 2013, 03:28:47 AM
The problem with Canon is that they jerk their customers around too much with bodies. 

Canon is well known to drag it's feet with innovation,

ridiculously old Canon 100-400mm.

The Nikon D800 nukes Canon in the megapixel department, the Sony NEX melts face off the Canon EOS M in every dimension.

Now the Black Magic cameras has mostly demolish Canon's video cameras. Not having RAW video is like not having RAW in photography. Canon's 1DC doesn't do raw video, ........ making the whole Canon cinema line up obsolete.

Now they are just a creaky old rotting corpse that releases overpriced products that are obsolete before they hit shelves.

Canon is an embarassment and they deserve it for sitting around and developing ridiculous products like the 70-300mm DO, touch screen DSLR's, t5i, a zooming fish eye to cover APS-C a..... worthless EOS M that autofocuses like a joke,

Canon's product development is a sad mismanaged joke and the writing on the wall is getting ever clearer, especially combined with their new ultra greedy pricing designed to alienate customers.

Tell us what you really think.
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on April 10, 2013, 03:40:21 AM
The 35mm Sigma has 2.5 stops better resolution that the 35mm Canon.

The 50mm Zeiss has 5 stops better resolution than the Canon 50mm 1.4 or 50mm 1.2L.

The Nikon 80-400mm has a 5 stop resolution advantage over the ridiculously old Canon 100-400mm.


What do you mean by stops of resolution???

Also I have to say that when I compared a contax zeiss 50 1.4 to my canon 50 1.4 it seemed more or less 100% identical at every f-stop. And what 24-70 is sharper than (or also fully APO as is) the 24-70 II? What from nikon beats 17 T&S or 24 T&S II? Where is there another 70-300L out there? How many years did it take to get even a single 70-200 f/4 IS competitor? Isn't the 70-200 2.8 IS II also the best by a smidge? So aren't they the best in some of the KEY lens categories? super-tele are great too (although the new ones prices are frightful)

Why did Nikon backtrack to such a hideous liveview in the D800 and a couple other recent releases?


Quote
Don't get me wrong I used to be a huge fan of Canon and loved them and constantly sang their praises... when they actually had innovative products. Now they are just a creaky old rotting corpse that releases overpriced products that are obsolete before they hit shelves. T5i anyone?

I did sort of fear this after hearing the absurd answers one of their execs was giving at a press conference back around when the 1Ds3 was released. Stuff about how what??? why do we need to make more FF bodies and add speed or anything we the king, the king supreme, we can sit upon the hill and laugh and milk and milk!!!! were are infinitely ahead of Nikon for FF technology! We are king! We have no need for new products! If by some rare chance Nikon is able to do something we will then react!


Quote
Even their best body and lens the 5D Mark III and 24-70mm II were both afterthoughts. The 5D Mark III was finished a year before it was released and Canon sat on it, to milk people on 5D Mark II inventory according to official sources, and the 24-70mm II was ONLY released for no other reason than to stop constant 24-70mm I warranty claims due to copy variation and extreme decentering.

Where did you hear that about the 5D3? And I really doubt that about the 24-70 II.

Quote
the 1DX and then that was gimped so they could sell more cinema products which were obsolete months after they hit shelves with products like the Black Magic cameras.

yup
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: NormanBates on April 10, 2013, 04:24:30 AM
The biggest problem for Canon is not resolution, but codec: they've crippled their cameras into irrelevance

BMD:
$1K: pocket BMC: 10-bit 4:2:2 Prores, compressed 12-bit RAW
$3K: original BMC: 10-bit 4:2:2 Prores, uncompressed 12-bit RAW
$4K: BMC-4K: 10-bit 4:2:2 Prores, compressed 12-bit RAW

Canon:
$1K: 18 Mpix DSLR: 8-bit 4:2:0 H.264
$3K: 5D3: 8-bit 4:2:0 H.264
$6K: 1DX: 8-bit 4:2:0 H.264
$6K: C100: 8-bit 4:2:0 H.264 (could easily do 8-bit 4:2:2 if they wanted)
$12K: 1DC: 8-bit 4:2:0 H.264
$14K: C300: 8-bit 4:2:2 H.264
$30K: C500 with external recorder: 12-bit RAW if you're recording 2K, 10-bit RAW if you want 4K

Basically, if 8-bit color is not enough for you, you can get something better by spending $1K-$4K on a BMD camera, or >$30K on a Canon.

And yes, I've used a BMC, and the image is extremely awesome (of course, the ergonomics and menus could be A LOT better; it doesn't even have a histogram, or onything like that).
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: infared on April 10, 2013, 05:41:33 AM
Nishi Drew, thanks for taking the time for the explanation..a little tech for me but you are basically confirming my perception that these BM cameras are game changers for many leaving Canon in the dust.  God knows what this means for my precious still camera in the future! LOL!
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: cayenne on April 10, 2013, 10:14:54 AM
Can someone give a short primer on MFT lenses/mounts?

What is good/bad about them? What are good lenses? Does canon make MFT lenses?

I'm only familiar with EF lenses so far...wondering what to look for if I take the plunge on that new small BM camera. It says the MFT is powered, is there some adapter that I could put on that to use my Canon EF glass? Would it autofocus? Powered aperture?

What is pricing like on MFT lenses...what is the first one or two focal lengths to get for one?

Thanks in advance,

C
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: ssrdd on April 10, 2013, 11:18:35 AM
OK...today Blackmagic has hijacked the topic at all of my camera blogs....even my MFT blogs...I am a still shooter and have no desire to shoot video...and not much understanding about it...but from what I have seen the Blackmagic units blow away the 5DIII in the video dept..no contest (correct???).I am just curious...how do Canon's expensive cinema specific cameras hold up to the Blackmagic units???

they r flop from the beginning. now its death is the only choice for canon C cameras.
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: SebastianK on April 10, 2013, 11:20:16 AM
MFT:
Thom Hogan's blog on mirrorless interchangable lens cameras has a lens and camera data base.
Very useful.
http://www.sansmirror.com/ (http://www.sansmirror.com/)
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: bvukich on April 10, 2013, 02:48:22 PM

The 35mm Sigma has 2.5 stops better resolution that the 35mm Canon.

The 50mm Zeiss has 5 stops better resolution than the Canon 50mm 1.4 or 50mm 1.2L.

The Nikon 80-400mm has a 5 stop resolution advantage over the ridiculously old Canon 100-400mm.


Stops?  You keep using that word...  I don't think it means what you think it means.

I can only really comment on the 80-400 (new version, old was not even worth comparing) vs 100-400.  The Nikon is sharper at the wide end in the center, and the Canon is sharper at the long end in the center.  They're comparable in the corners at all focal lengths.

If you're using a lens like this, long end performance is probably the most important. But YMMV.
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: c.d.embrey on April 10, 2013, 03:13:36 PM
Isn't there somewhere on the 'net that isn't pimping the over-hyped Black Magic :(
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: iamoui on April 10, 2013, 03:30:01 PM
Isn't there somewhere on the 'net that isn't pimping the over-hyped Black Magic :(

By "pimping" do you mean letting people know of their announcement? These "over-hyped" blackmagic camera's are unbelievable for their price point! There is a reason everyone on the internet is talking about these. A camera the size of an iphone 5 that can shoot 1080p in ProRes 422 and compressed RAW with 13 stops of DR on SD cards was UNHEARD OF until now. Tell me, what do you think is 'over-hyped' about these cameras? Judging by the images coming out of the first generation Blackmagic Cinema Camera (in the right hands, of course, like any camera) I, like many people, can not WAIT to get my hands on these cameras. If it's 'over-hyped' for you then don't buy it! Simple as that.

Mick
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: thelebaron on April 10, 2013, 03:45:38 PM
I cant wait to see how this affects the 1dc. do canon reduce the price, because its also a 1dx. but if they leave the price high, I cant imagine anyone would want it considering the 4k bmc.
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: BruinBear on April 10, 2013, 04:27:48 PM
Let me just get this straight, so it has the same sensor size as the 5D Mkiii and only costs $500 more at there releases and it shoots 4K raw...
Close, with one very important correction: Super 35mm is a film format that is approximately APS-C size.

I was thinking that but then I saw the part about it sharing stuff with the new Leica

The size of the sensor as listed on the BH photo page is 21.12 x 11.88mm which is 16x9.
Equivalent crop is 2.0 vertically, 1.7 horizontally from full frame. So its actually smaller than APS-C
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on April 10, 2013, 05:35:16 PM
So price of 1DC - price of 1DX = MORE THAN price of the BM 4k camera!

So body of 1DC - body of 1DX = tweaked firmware and $2 heat sink.

Priceless  ;D


Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: Policar on April 10, 2013, 05:37:42 PM
Well, for all the outputs and controls you get the Canons aren't bad, but in terms of dynamic range, uncompressed RAW with pro res 422 (awesome codecs for editing in post) and likely retaining sharp detail with no moire (the previous BMCC doesn't seem to have any issues with that) the BMCC is just so much more awesome, and look now it's got 4K with a super 35mm sensor and it's a global shutter! I don't think any of the Canons have a global shutter, so they will all suffer from skewed images when panning or shooting fast action. And the BMCC  already has an electronic EF mount too so for strict video work there's no reason to get the 5DIII unless stills are a main as well. Which, it is for me sadly, now the 5DIII isn't a slouch for video, it may be soft and not give options for glorious codecs and data output, but people have been using the system like they did with the 5DII with good results, but looks like I will be needing 60FPS at 1080P for upcoming work and neither system cuts it, Panasonic wins the cake with their GH3 again, and the GH2 is still better for all around in that regard!

So, to keep things simple, the 5D line for video is a thing of the past, the Canon Cinema cameras are overpriced for what the competition is delivering (overpriced can be used for many things but in this case it is very relevant). 4K may not have much use as even 720P can live on, but for editing, shooting in 4k and then exporting at 2K or even 1080P could mean near flawless IQ compared to 1080P only cameras, especially if you can edit in uncompressed RAW

The C100/300/500 all deliver more resolution than the BMCC with much less aliasing. I doubt this camera will have an AA filter so it should be sharp but crispy.

That said, the specs on this are incredible. The lack of skew alone will be HUGE for vfx. Canon's cinema line is designed for professional use in much the way many pros shoot JPEG... you want the product good enough and out the door fast and a good JPEG is much better than a bad RAW shot. The C line has amazing ergonomics, decent technical specs, a good "look," and a poor codec, but it's all about speed and versatility. Local ads and stuff. The BMCC is more about high end personal work (film festival type stuff), for which budget and ease of use are less essential. Fully outfitting one to be field-ready will be expensive, though. Very expensive...

The GH3 seems awesome.
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on April 10, 2013, 05:38:02 PM
The biggest problem for Canon is not resolution, but codec: they've crippled their cameras into irrelevance

BMD:
$1K: pocket BMC: 10-bit 4:2:2 Prores, compressed 12-bit RAW
$3K: original BMC: 10-bit 4:2:2 Prores, uncompressed 12-bit RAW
$4K: BMC-4K: 10-bit 4:2:2 Prores, compressed 12-bit RAW

$3K: 5D3: 8-bit 4:2:0 H.264

in a few weeks the 5D3 will do 8bit 4:2:2 lossless over HDMI and add say $700 for Ninja2 and you get 8bit 4:2:2: proRes (would be so awesome if they gave 10bits)
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: NormanBates on April 11, 2013, 07:21:38 AM
Let me just get this straight, so it has the same sensor size as the 5D Mkiii and only costs $500 more at there releases and it shoots 4K raw...
Close, with one very important correction: Super 35mm is a film format that is approximately APS-C size.

I was thinking that but then I saw the part about it sharing stuff with the new Leica

The size of the sensor as listed on the BH photo page is 21.12 x 11.88mm which is 16x9.
Equivalent crop is 2.0 vertically, 1.7 horizontally from full frame. So its actually smaller than APS-C


That's the active area in quad-HD mode. The sensor is 22.5x16.9 mm (vs 22.3x14.9 for the 18mpix APS-C sensor, for example).
If it can record 4096x2160, it will be 1.6x crop. If it can only do 3840x2160, then it is 1.7x crop (that is, using my rule that only the most restrictive dimension counts, in this case the horizontal one).


The biggest problem for Canon is not resolution, but codec: they've crippled their cameras into irrelevance

BMD:
$1K: pocket BMC: 10-bit 4:2:2 Prores, compressed 12-bit RAW
$3K: original BMC: 10-bit 4:2:2 Prores, uncompressed 12-bit RAW
$4K: BMC-4K: 10-bit 4:2:2 Prores, compressed 12-bit RAW

$3K: 5D3: 8-bit 4:2:0 H.264

in a few weeks the 5D3 will do 8bit 4:2:2 lossless over HDMI and add say $700 for Ninja2 and you get 8bit 4:2:2: proRes (would be so awesome if they gave 10bits)

well, yes, but you said it yourself: 4:2:2 is nice, but that's still 8-bit
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: dswatson83 on April 11, 2013, 01:11:01 PM
Is there an adapter that allows me to put my Canon lenses on this camera? Either the $1000 camera or the 4k? I'm just not in the mood to have to buy new lenses for another system right now. But I would gladly try these out instead of the 5D3 if I can use my lenses.
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: Equilux on April 11, 2013, 02:31:44 PM
Is there an adapter that allows me to put my Canon lenses on this camera?

The answer is:

Quote
The camera will only be available in EF mount

So you won't need any adapter for your Canon lenses in combination with this camera. The 1000$ will come along with a mft-mount - so you can easily adapt your EF-lenses to the BM Cinema Pocket Camera too.
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: cayenne on April 11, 2013, 02:43:50 PM
Is there an adapter that allows me to put my Canon lenses on this camera?

The answer is:

Quote
The camera will only be available in EF mount

So you won't need any adapter for your Canon lenses in combination with this camera. The 1000$ will come along with a mft-mount - so you can easily adapt your EF-lenses to the BM Cinema Pocket Camera too.

Well, as for the mini 'pocket' camera. It has a powered MFT mount. Now, from what I've heard, there is a MFT to EF adaptor. I'm curious if it will work with either autofocus or iris control?

The original BM camera, comes with a choice of powered EF, but the MFT on that camera, is NOT powered, so not only is focus manual, but so is iris control.

I'm curious with the pocket MFT, since it is powered...will work with EF lenses with an adaptor myself!!!

If so, I'm thinking ONE MFT lens..something in the 12mm-35mm, which on that sensor, would be about equivalent to 24-70mm on the EF side....that with my current cannon glass would be a great deal for me and I'd jump into the new camera immediately as a 2nd camera for my shots...

C
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: SpaceGhost on April 11, 2013, 05:22:53 PM
Without 60P, this is still very cool but I wouldn't buy one.

Adding that one feature will entice me to buy two.
M
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: Pieces Of E on April 11, 2013, 05:27:17 PM
The Blackmagic Design cameras are pretty awesome for what they are and how they've burst onto the video market, but for us Windows-based PC owners without a brand new Thunderbolt input device, they're useless. I don't even think that a stand-alone SSD reader exists, so that puts the kibosh on my interest. As if I have the cash-ola to spend anyways!  ::)
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: Axilrod on April 11, 2013, 05:44:11 PM
Without 60P, this is still very cool but I wouldn't buy one.

Adding that one feature will entice me to buy two.
M

4k, compressed raw, global shutter for $4k and lack of 60p is what stops you from buying one?  Considering that 60p isn't even that great for slow-mo that's just mind-boggling to me.  I mean if you really have to shoot slow-motion just rent an FS700 for those shots and get 240fps. 
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: Axilrod on April 11, 2013, 05:45:41 PM
I love Blackmagic Design right now, I preordered both of these guys and they deserve it.  I think they're more or less filling the old BMCC bodies with the new sensors and using the old ones for the pocket cam, really smart play on their part.  Only people I feel bad for are the ones that got their preorders filled in the last month.
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: Radiating on April 11, 2013, 09:56:55 PM
The Blackmagic Design cameras are pretty awesome for what they are and how they've burst onto the video market, but for us Windows-based PC owners without a brand new Thunderbolt input device, they're useless. I don't even think that a stand-alone SSD reader exists, so that puts the kibosh on my interest. As if I have the cash-ola to spend anyways!  ::)

Ummm there are 427 "stand-alone SSD readers" available on Newegg alone, and 19,349 available on Amazon (that's ninteen thousand). Here's one I recommend (mid range) for $24.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153066 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153066)

Or one of the fastest ones you can get for $45:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153133 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153133)


Stand alone SSD readers second only to SD card readers in popularity.
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: Midphase on April 12, 2013, 12:27:14 AM
I just got back from NAB and I can tell you that the Blackmagic 4K camera was the talk of the show.

What Blackmagic has done is listened to their customers who were greatly concerned with the 2.5K's rolling shutter and 16mm sensor, and addressed those issues quickly and without raising the price substantially. The camera image looks great (particularly when paired up with a nice Zeiss prime), and I do believe Blackmagic when they say they've learned their lesson and are serious about meeting their (late) July deadline. I think the biggest problem that they face is that they simply won't be able to keep up with demand, this puppy will be sold out for quite some time.

I do think this 4K camera will first and foremost damage RED Scarlet sales, followed by Canon C-line sales. I also think it spells doom for sales of the 5D3 or 7D2 to filmmakers. Canon and RED are in serious trouble and they know it.

There are some negatives to the Blackmagic 4K camera, first of all the crappy form factor (inputs on the wrong side, poor controls and lack of assignable buttons). Secondly, the 4K only shoots 4K, which means that if you also want to shoot HD or 2.5K with it, you simply can't (firmware update perhaps?). Oh, and there's that lack-of-swappable-battery issue that still causes puzzlement among the masses.

Having said that, for the price and image quality (not just about resolution, the image indeed looks stunning), I think most of us will be ok with the workarounds and lacks.


Moving onto the Blackmagic Mini. It's a very exciting camera, it lends itself well to a B-camera, and as a primary camera on shots not needing a super-low-light sensor or super-shallow DOF. For instance, establishing exterior shots, or greenscreen work. Rolling shutter on it is just as bad as its older brother, and the Super-16mm sized sensor will limit its usage for ultra-wide angle shots or CU needing very shallow DOF. However, this is a (potentially) quad-copter friendly camera which will also appeal to some. Other negative is needing to either purchase a whole slew of new lenses, or use EF to M4/3 adaptors...not ideal.

Do I wish that both cameras could do 60p or more? Of course, but as much as we tend to fixate on slow motion, how often does it get used on dramatic indie films which until now were mostly using the 5D?

So what can Canon (and RED) do now?

RED could drop the price of its Scarlet to match the BMCC 4K. Sure it would still be more expensive with the add-ons, but RED could argue quite well that the Scarlet can not only shoot 120fps, but is also a more production-ready and field-tested camera.

Canon should think long and hard about allowing its camera line (including the 5D3) to shoot 60fps at 1080p. They might consider updating the video codec to ProRes (could be possible). I sure hope that their uncompressed 422 HDMI out looks substantially better than what the camera currently records internally. Thankfully they can also rely on the multitude of still photographers who don't really give a crap about video.

Unfortunately their C line is...well...screwed. They could drop the price (substantially) which would undoubtedly piss off many recent customers. Even so, I really believe that for all intents and purposes, the C line is as good as dead since it will now live in a dreaded no-man's land between high end productions (ALEXA and Epic) and low end (Blackmagic).


From my very skeptical analysis (FYI, last year's BMCC 2.5k failed to impress), I think in this particular case the hype is well deserved. I think the BMCC 4K and Mini will (assuming they ship reasonably on schedule) have a huge impact on independent filmmaking.
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: NormanBates on April 12, 2013, 04:43:09 AM
What Canon needs to do to be able to compete with BlackMagic:
* bring, at least, 10-bit 422 internal recording with a high bitrate, to DSLRs --> they may need new processors for this
* unlock the dynamic range of the cameras --> they may need new sensors for this
So, they're in a nasty place.
All their fault, though, they new this is what consumers wanted for the last 3 or 4 years, and did nothing about it.
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: JasonATL on April 12, 2013, 08:07:13 AM
The Blackmagic Design cameras are pretty awesome for what they are and how they've burst onto the video market, but for us Windows-based PC owners without a brand new Thunderbolt input device, they're useless. I don't even think that a stand-alone SSD reader exists, so that puts the kibosh on my interest. As if I have the cash-ola to spend anyways!  ::)

I'm a Windows-only user at the moment and have no problems working with my Blackmagic Design Cinema Camera (BMCC). You can read ProRes in Windows. BMD's DaVinci Resolve is on Windows. My BMCC uses exFat-formatted SSD drives. Thunderbolt is only used for monitoring and scopes while recording and is not necessary (or even used) for ingesting video from the camera.

All the praise of the BMCC and the anticipated new cameras that I'm reading here is well-deserved. My wife has a 5D Mark III for stills shooting. I borrowed it for video shooting quite a bit and was about ready to buy one until I started fancying a BMCC. I'm very glad I didn't buy another 5D Mark III. The BMCC is so far beyond a DSLR that I don't know if I'll ever pick up a DSLR for video again, especially after my BM Pocket Camera arrives.

As someone said earlier, ask a stills photog if they would ever give up raw. Once you have it in video, you won't want to either.

And, the 4:2:2 modes on the BMCC blow away my Canons in resolution and color.

I've ordered both new cameras, but will probably cancel the 4k. I really don't have a need for it. The Pocket cam will solve one issue that I don't like about the BMCC vs. a DSLR: the BMCC's form factor is not "handheld-friendly". Like Cayenne, I plan to buy one MFT lens (the Panny 12-35 with IS) and use the cam as a "walking around" cam. If an active-MFT to active-EF adapter comes out, all the better so I can use all my EF-mount glass.

A correction to something in this thread. The BMCC does suffer from moire. However, because it resolves so much detail, it is actually possible to reduce the effects of the moire and clean it up nicely, mostly through chroma blur. In doing so, the moire isn't bothersome to me on this camera, when it was something I just hated about some DSLRs.

There is a reason that BMD has stolen the show at NAB two years in a row. They're delivering what people want.

The next traditional companies that need to start worrying are the Adobe's and Apple's: BMD's DaVinci Resolve might end up replacing their post tools. Resolve is amazing.
Title: Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
Post by: cayenne on April 15, 2013, 12:20:53 PM
The Blackmagic Design cameras are pretty awesome for what they are and how they've burst onto the video market, but for us Windows-based PC owners without a brand new Thunderbolt input device, they're useless. I don't even think that a stand-alone SSD reader exists, so that puts the kibosh on my interest. As if I have the cash-ola to spend anyways!  ::)

I'm a Windows-only user at the moment and have no problems working with my Blackmagic Design Cinema Camera (BMCC). You can read ProRes in Windows. BMD's DaVinci Resolve is on Windows. My BMCC uses exFat-formatted SSD drives. Thunderbolt is only used for monitoring and scopes while recording and is not necessary (or even used) for ingesting video from the camera.

All the praise of the BMCC and the anticipated new cameras that I'm reading here is well-deserved. My wife has a 5D Mark III for stills shooting. I borrowed it for video shooting quite a bit and was about ready to buy one until I started fancying a BMCC. I'm very glad I didn't buy another 5D Mark III. The BMCC is so far beyond a DSLR that I don't know if I'll ever pick up a DSLR for video again, especially after my BM Pocket Camera arrives.

As someone said earlier, ask a stills photog if they would ever give up raw. Once you have it in video, you won't want to either.

And, the 4:2:2 modes on the BMCC blow away my Canons in resolution and color.

I've ordered both new cameras, but will probably cancel the 4k. I really don't have a need for it. The Pocket cam will solve one issue that I don't like about the BMCC vs. a DSLR: the BMCC's form factor is not "handheld-friendly". Like Cayenne, I plan to buy one MFT lens (the Panny 12-35 with IS) and use the cam as a "walking around" cam. If an active-MFT to active-EF adapter comes out, all the better so I can use all my EF-mount glass.

A correction to something in this thread. The BMCC does suffer from moire. However, because it resolves so much detail, it is actually possible to reduce the effects of the moire and clean it up nicely, mostly through chroma blur. In doing so, the moire isn't bothersome to me on this camera, when it was something I just hated about some DSLRs.

There is a reason that BMD has stolen the show at NAB two years in a row. They're delivering what people want.

The next traditional companies that need to start worrying are the Adobe's and Apple's: BMD's DaVinci Resolve might end up replacing their post tools. Resolve is amazing.

Please give us a good review when you get the BM camera(s)!!

I've never been one to test the water with both feet so to speak.....so, I'm gonna let a few of the pocket BM cameras come out, and find what people like about them, difficulties, and most importantly to me...what they find are the best lenses to get for it.

I would like to use as much of my EF glass with it I could (with an adaptor that hopefully would work), but I do realize that I'll need something MUCH wider to add with that to make the camera useful in more situations.

C