canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => Speedlites, Printers, Accessories => Topic started by: trof2 on December 02, 2013, 09:23:01 PM

Title: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: trof2 on December 02, 2013, 09:23:01 PM
Okay, so here's the thing...  I have a Pixma Pro9000 II, which I have been using for about two years now, and for the same two years I have been repeatedly and increasingly frustrated with its ink usage until I have to hold myself back from throwing the POS out of the window (such as today). 

I KNOW I put in brand new cartridges a month ago, and in this interval, I printed maybe 50 black and white pages of text at low quality, and maybe a handful of photos.  Now this thing is telling me I'm out of cyan and magenta.  WTF?!  All other ink levels are more or less full.

Now look, I did not print a handful of cyan and magenta posters this month.  We're talking 4x6 balanced exposures here.  This sort of random ink depletion happens with other random colors too.  In fact, I don't even need to print to see the ink levels drop before my eyes.  All I have to do is turn the printer on and off, and the ink is visibly lower than seconds prior! Some drop, while others remain.  Tomorrow, when I turn in on, it's probably going to tell me that I'm running low on red, although today it's full.

It costs me around $80 to fill this piece of sheisse up with ink each time, so I'm sure you understand my frustration. 

Based on my observations, I have arrived at the following hypotheses:
1.  Every time the printer does its stupid buzzing and clicking cleaning cycle, it actually sprays geysers of color like Ron Jeremy after eating a kilo of Skittles.
2.  My printer heads may dry out periodically because of low humidity or something, and the printer decides to flush the contents of its cartridges to get anything through.
3.  The ink evaporates.
4.  Canon deliberately programmed this thing to engage in ink wasting cycles other than printing my photography or timed the cartridges to deplete after a certain period of time.

I'm curious if anyone in this community has ever experienced anything of the sort, and what you have done to remedy this.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: privatebydesign on December 02, 2013, 09:43:10 PM
The answer is 1.

Don't switch it off unless you have to, in the utilities see if there is an option to turn auto cleaning off, there is in my Epson.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: trof2 on December 02, 2013, 10:19:12 PM
The answer is 1.

Don't switch it off unless you have to, in the utilities see if there is an option to turn auto cleaning off, there is in my Epson.

This would be easy in a perfect world with no friction or air resistance.  Alas, there is no option to disable auto cleaning.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: rpt on December 02, 2013, 10:48:23 PM
This business of printers burning off ink is the reason I don't have a printer since 2006! A three minute walk from my house are two printing places and a photo studio. So I can have the pick of printers I want to print on.  :)
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: privatebydesign on December 02, 2013, 10:56:32 PM
This business of printers burning off ink is the reason I don't have a printer since 2006! A three minute walk from my house are two printing places and a photo studio. So I can have the pick of printers I want to print on.  :)

I would venture to say for most people and home printing it isn't about the money, it is about making it yourself and having complete control in the final output, hell if we wanted to talk finances how many of us need a 5D MkIII over a 7D and L lenses over EF-s lenses to make the images we do?
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: neuroanatomist on December 02, 2013, 11:17:17 PM
I have two printers - an HP All-in-One and a Canon Selphy CP900.  The HP does pretty good with ink, although it's probably used more as a photocopier than a printer.  The Selphy is Canon's little dye-sub 4x6" photo printer - Canon sells packs of paper + 'ink' (transfer film rolls) in matched numbers, but every time it's turned on it 'burns' one print worth of the ink, so you end up with excess paper, especially if you only print a couple at a time and power it off in between (to store it in a drawer, for example)...so, there may be something to your 'conspiracy theory'.

FWIW, I don't print 'real' prints on either printer (and not at 4x6"), those go to a lab.  I have the Selphy because I have young kids.  Seems they often need to bring in a picture of their family/pet/favorite whatever on short notice.  It also comes in handy as a fallback option for alphabet show and tell - I just go to my Birds library (Anhinga, Bluebird, Catbird, Duck, Egret, etc. :) ).
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on December 03, 2013, 12:04:00 AM
The conspiracy theory has been going around for at least 20 years.  The fact is that printers tend to consume ink even if they are not used.
 
A laser printer is much better in that regard, but they can use excess toner as well, just not very much.
 
I long ago found high quality 3rd party ink for my inkjet printers, and third party toner for my color laser.  That cuts the cost down. 
 
I also have a Kodak Dye Sub.  It only uses the ink film when I print, but if its turned off too long, I may have to do a couple of prints and toss them because they come out splotchy.
 
You can't win.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: danski0224 on December 03, 2013, 08:28:48 AM
Has anyone tried one of those Xerox solid ink printers?
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: distant.star on December 03, 2013, 12:35:47 PM
.
The following formula solved my problem with regard to Canon printers and their ink "issue."

1. Find alternative ways to print. I've found several that do not cause me to own a printer.

2. Favorably describe your printer in a posting on Craig's List.

3. When the CL buyer hands you a $50 bill, hand him the printer.

4. Use part of the $50 for a bottle of good bourbon.

5. Problem solved.

I'm glad the damn thing is gone and haven't missed it for even one minute.

Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: rpt on December 03, 2013, 12:40:23 PM
.
The following formula solved my problem with regard to Canon printers and their ink "issue."

1. Find alternative ways to print. I've found several that do not cause me to own a printer.

2. Favorably describe you printer in a posting on Craig's List.

3. When the CL buyer hands you a $50 bill, hand him the printer.

4. Use part of the $50 for a bottle of good bourbon.

5. Problem solved.

I'm glad the damn thing is gone and haven't missed it for even one minute.
+1 on each of those points except #4. You get a 10 for that :)

I guess unlike some of the folks here I don't need to print much. The kids are all grown up and all that...
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: Ruined on December 03, 2013, 12:48:41 PM
I am pretty sure the PRO-100/10 have an option to disable auto cleaning, suprised the 9000 does not.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: danski0224 on December 03, 2013, 02:18:41 PM
I am pretty sure the PRO-100/10 have an option to disable auto cleaning, suprised the 9000 does not.

What happens when this is disabled? How long can an inkjet printer sit before ink dries up inside?

I found something called "Execute ink quality maintenance automatically" with a checkbox (Pro-10 properties).

The ink appetite has kinda surprised me. It has been almost 10 years since I last owned an inkjet- switched to laser. But I wanted to print stuff at home without going out.

I suppose it is just a matter of time before 3rd party inks come out for this printer...
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: privatebydesign on December 03, 2013, 02:25:30 PM
Yep disable that, it sounds like an auto throw away of ink every time you turn it on.

There should be an option for manual cleaning/maintenance, each time you go to use it print a test pattern and run a manual clean if it needs it.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: takesome1 on December 03, 2013, 02:29:16 PM
There is no savings printing with the 9000 over taking photos to a lab.

The only reason to use it is convenience and if you want to control the output of your work.
The 9000 gives better results than my local labs. If those reasons do not justify the cost of the ink, take your stuff to a lab and avoid the stress.


Cost wise;
On small prints it will cost you more to use the 9000 than the labs.
Large prints it balances out somewhat.

AND; Stop printing text, it is an incredible waste of money.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: mackguyver on December 03, 2013, 02:42:14 PM
AND; Stop printing text, it is an incredible waste of money.
+1 on that - even a cheap laser will save you TON$$$ of money over any inkjet. 
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: trof2 on December 03, 2013, 03:13:01 PM
.
The following formula solved my problem with regard to Canon printers and their ink "issue."

1. Find alternative ways to print. I've found several that do not cause me to own a printer.

2. Favorably describe your printer in a posting on Craig's List.

3. When the CL buyer hands you a $50 bill, hand him the printer.

4. Use part of the $50 for a bottle of good bourbon.

5. Problem solved.

I'm glad the damn thing is gone and haven't missed it for even one minute.

I think I will follow your example.  I should take a look at the market price... My hunch is that I could get at least $150 for it with some paper and extras.  Bourbon x 3  :)
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: iam2nd on December 03, 2013, 03:38:35 PM
...
Based on my observations, I have arrived at the following hypotheses:
1.  Every time the printer does its stupid buzzing and clicking cleaning cycle, it actually sprays geysers of color like Ron Jeremy after eating a kilo of Skittles.
2.  My printer heads may dry out periodically because of low humidity or something, and the printer decides to flush the contents of its cartridges to get anything through.
3.  The ink evaporates.
4.  Canon deliberately programmed this thing to engage in ink wasting cycles other than printing my photography or timed the cartridges to deplete after a certain period of time.

I'm curious if anyone in this community has ever experienced anything of the sort, and what you have done to remedy this.

Definitely #1, and perhaps a bit of #4 (but it would be all companies and not just Canon).

Inside virtually all inkjet printers is an absorbing pad that sits under the ink cartridges when they are in the "home" position.  Under that pad is rubber tubing that leads to a pump (some types resemble a kidney dialysis machine pump).  Yep, there's a real mechanical pump in there, and it sucks away the ink that's spewed out when you turn on the printer, and when it runs it's scheduled cleaning cycle, into a little reservoir.

As a few others said, try leaving the printer on, and disable any self-cleaning options if available.

Only one thing with printers has frustrated me more, and that was a Kodak all-in-wonder printer I used to have.  In their infinite wisdom, the engineers decided to NOT allow printing in only black&white when even a single color ink was out, even when B&W was selected in the print options.  AND... here's the kicker, it wouldn't even let you SCAN a document if ink was out; the software simply showed the error and returned an error back to the print driver.  Needless to say, I have not bought another Kodak printer.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: danski0224 on December 03, 2013, 03:55:15 PM
There is no savings printing with the 9000 over taking photos to a lab.

The only reason to use it is convenience and if you want to control the output of your work.
The 9000 gives better results than my local labs. If those reasons do not justify the cost of the ink, take your stuff to a lab and avoid the stress.


Cost wise;
On small prints it will cost you more to use the 9000 than the labs.
Large prints it balances out somewhat.

AND; Stop printing text, it is an incredible waste of money.

Well, I got my Pro-10 because I wanted to print stuff at home, and I picked it up with a rebate, so the price was good. I have been printing non-photo items on a laser printer for a long time.

First few prints were pretty rough with an uncalibrated monitor and no additional adjustments. I didn't get what I saw, so that would have been interesting if I outsourced the print.

I was kind of hoping it would be a wash with compared to farming stuff out, but I'm not sure. I do have oodles of paper now...  :o ::)

Who knows, maybe it will come down to getting rid of it, or limit the size to 4 x 6 (maybe 5 x 7) for proofing and farm out bigger prints. My internet connection sucks, so uploading big files is an issue.

A 4 x 6 print is 24 square inches, 8 x 11 is 88 square inches and a 13 x 19 is 247 square inches. I guess the use of ink makes sense in those terms.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: privatebydesign on December 03, 2013, 04:31:51 PM
I did an extensive cost analysis when I got my Epson 4900.

Ink usage works out at 0.01 ml per in², I pay around $0.50 per ml for genuine ink. I use Epson Premium Lustre roll paper from their Signature range it costs $0.0036 per in².

A 16" x 24" print that I make costs me $1.92 in ink and $1.38 in paper. $3.30 for a high quality 16" x  24" print that I have complete control in making, of course if you factor in time and the printer cost, $1,145, but offset that against printer resale value (around $800) and the fact that I like printing, I still end up with pretty reasonably priced prints.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: ablearcher on December 03, 2013, 07:52:08 PM
I have the 9000 and a smaller one MP630 (?) Yes, printing at home is bloody expensive. But I can't take every shot I want/need to print to the lab. There are some on the artsy/wild side which clients prefer to be done "in-house". And every time i bring them 13x19 metallic or art rag paper print after their glam session - they do go WOW. These prints cost them, but they already know that. So it is a win-win. I don't need the printer for regular clients.  ;D

Also, all the labs i use are in the US (I'm in Canada). So there is always that delivery $$ issue. If I don't have a lot to order (say just a print or two for framing) then paying $50 and waiting does not make a lot of sense. But yes, I still use the labs for bulk orders.

Printer is just a tool - so you either need it or not. Just like anything else.

Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: rpt on December 03, 2013, 09:02:42 PM
Printer is just a tool - so you either need it or not. Just like anything else.
Nail on the head man!
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: dtaylor on December 04, 2013, 06:51:28 AM
If you want the advantages of home printing, take a look at Epson's 3880. It's part of their professional line and big enough to overcome the major disadvantages with home photo ink jets, but still small enough to be manageable (space; ink cost and usage) for a home user.

* The carts are big. I can print sheet after sheet, 17x22, and the ink levels barely budge. (Cost per print is about even with labs for 8x10 and cheaper for larger sizes, assuming paper of similar quality.)

* I've literally gone months without printing only to power up, hear the printer run a single auto clean cycle, and print a perfect test sheet. It just doesn't clog.

* It seems to actually track time and sheets printed and auto clean when it needs to, not just because you powered off for a few minutes. I've never kept track to know what the triggers are, but I've also never had the impression it was wasting ink.

* Even when it warns that a cart is low, you keep printing. There's probably a dozen or more 16x20's left in the cart. You can change carts mid-print without affecting the print, so you just keep going until it asks for a new cart.

* Changing a cart does not touch the ink levels in the other carts. Only the changed line is primed. Most ink jets prime every line once a single cart is changed which defeats the whole purpose of individual carts and is a big part of the reason why ink disappears into a void.

* IQ, paper choices, longevity...all top of the line. At the 2nd best resolution setting (1440 instead of 2880) this printer will put lab prints to shame.

I should note that I do not and would not use my 3880 for anything but photos. I have a separate, cheap ink jet for text.

The only drawback is that the glossy and matte blacks share a line, so if you change paper types you lose some ink (a few bucks worth). So you need to batch your prints by type. But the printer performs so well...and the carts last so long...that this is hardly worth complaining about.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: danski0224 on December 04, 2013, 08:00:37 AM

* Even when it warns that a cart is low, you keep printing. There's probably a dozen or more 16x20's left in the cart. You can change carts mid-print without affecting the print, so you just keep going until it asks for a new cart.

* Changing a cart does not touch the ink levels in the other carts. Only the changed line is primed. Most ink jets prime every line once a single cart is changed which defeats the whole purpose of individual carts and is a big part of the reason why ink disappears into a void.

The only drawback is that the glossy and matte blacks share a line, so if you change paper types you lose some ink (a few bucks worth). So you need to batch your prints by type. But the printer performs so well...and the carts last so long...that this is hardly worth complaining about.

I have a feeling that the Pro-10 doesn't have "hot swappable" ink tanks.

I have also been wondering if all inks are primed when one tank is replaced. I haven't been able to find any support in the manual yet.

Is there an Epson that shares the strong points outlined in your posting but doesn't require a change of black ink for glossy/matte?
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: dtaylor on December 05, 2013, 01:55:47 AM
I have a feeling that the Pro-10 doesn't have "hot swappable" ink tanks.

I have also been wondering if all inks are primed when one tank is replaced. I haven't been able to find any support in the manual yet.

Is there an Epson that shares the strong points outlined in your posting but doesn't require a change of black ink for glossy/matte?

I don't know why Epson does this, but I think even the 4900 and above share a line for matte and glossy black. Keep in mind that you do not physically swap the carts. Both blacks stay in the printer. If there's a paper type switch the printer will flush and prime the line.

According to the Epson 3800 FAQ at http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/faq.html#swap_pk_mk (http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/faq.html#swap_pk_mk) swapping to matte costs $0.85 cents and swapping to photo (glossy) costs $2.25. Enough to make you think about your printing and batch prints, but not enough to get upset over if you need to switch back and forth a couple times to meet a deadline.

The positives completely eclipse this one annoyance. I guarantee you other printers waste more ink $$$ with their stupid clogs and cleaning cycles then this model does swapping blacks. The carts last forever even with the swaps.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: danski0224 on December 05, 2013, 08:47:02 AM
I looked at the 4900, and the net is full of poor reviews. I get it that it is more common to post poor reviews than good ones.

Any particular time to watch for Epson deals, with "Black Friday" and "cyber Monday" distant memories now?
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: mackguyver on December 05, 2013, 03:47:53 PM
I bought a Pro-100 several weeks ago when Adorama had it for $100AR with free paper.  For that price, I thought it would be worthwhile to get some additional control and convenience over my prints.  So far I've made about 30 prints (mostly 8x10) and the indicators still show everything as full.  Does it drop like a cheap car fuel gauge or something? I.e. 300 miles to half tank, 350 miles to 1/4 tank, 10 miles to Empty!
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: dtaylor on December 05, 2013, 07:46:16 PM
I looked at the 4900, and the net is full of poor reviews. I get it that it is more common to post poor reviews than good ones.

That's surprising to me. But when I did a search after reading your post it looks like they have a failing print head issue with that model. The actual reviews are good, the ratings and complaints trace back to that issue. Disappointing.

I don't think that's happening with the 3880 line, but mine was manufactured a few years ago.

Quote
Any particular time to watch for Epson deals, with "Black Friday" and "cyber Monday" distant memories now?

None that I'm aware of.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: danski0224 on December 06, 2013, 12:27:50 AM
Well, I happened upon a gently used Epson 3800 for a fair price. It was local, so I could check it out.

Had to buy some ink, but I'm still in it for less than a 3880 refurb and way less than a new 3880.

Doesn't seem to be too many real life major differences between the 3800 and 3880 based on a quick search.

Network setup (wired) was a bit of a pain. No PnP there. Had to read the manual.

Tried out some prints onto Canon paper, and as long as I pick the right settings, print output looks very, very good.

The choosing the right print settings part is more involved than the Canon Pro-10.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: danski0224 on December 06, 2013, 12:55:03 AM
I bought a Pro-100 several weeks ago when Adorama had it for $100AR with free paper.  For that price, I thought it would be worthwhile to get some additional control and convenience over my prints.  So far I've made about 30 prints (mostly 8x10) and the indicators still show everything as full.  Does it drop like a cheap car fuel gauge or something? I.e. 300 miles to half tank, 350 miles to 1/4 tank, 10 miles to Empty!

I have a Pro-10 and the ink levels drop fast in my use.

I have some 13 x 19 prints I have done, and those are quite a bit bigger than 4 x 6 or 8 x 10. Could ba a "duh" moment, or maybe I had different expectations.

I think I have done about 10 each 13 x 19 and probably 20 8.5 x 11 and maybe a dozen 4 x 6, and I'm through the starter inks and getting into a 3rd change on some.

The Pro-10 cartridges have an ink volume of 14ml and cost ~$16 each.

The Epson 3800 cartridges have an ink volume of 80ml and cost ~$60 each.

Simply based on volume and OEM ink costs, Canon is $91.42 for 80ml of ink (5.7 Canon cartridges for 80ml). This doesn't account for wasted ink during cartridge replacement. Six cartridges = $96. Both printers don't use the same number of ink cartridges, so a direct comparison is difficult.

There is a print cost comparison at Red River Papers, and the Canon is roughly 2x Epson per print in their testing.

There is an established Epson ink aftermarket too.

So, the smaller cartridges explain why the levels drop fast on bigger prints.

I find the Canon Pro-10 output very nice, but it isn't economical*. It would have been better to figure this out beforehand :)

* inkjet printing isn't "economical", but small ink cartridges don't match well with bigger prints...

Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: dtaylor on December 06, 2013, 07:46:58 AM
Well, I happened upon a gently used Epson 3800 for a fair price. It was local, so I could check it out.

Had to buy some ink, but I'm still in it for less than a 3880 refurb and way less than a new 3880.

Doesn't seem to be too many real life major differences between the 3800 and 3880 based on a quick search.

Network setup (wired) was a bit of a pain. No PnP there. Had to read the manual.

Tried out some prints onto Canon paper, and as long as I pick the right settings, print output looks very, very good.

Good find. There's very little real difference between the two.

I highly recommend trying out Epson's Hot Press Bright paper. Epson has a paper sample pack that's worth getting. It has two sheets each of all the press variations, exhibition fiber, etc. I was a glossy paper fan until I tried the press papers. Of course there's a ton of papers from 3rd parties as well.

inkjet printing isn't "economical", but small ink cartridges don't match well with bigger prints...

Exactly. I do consider the 3800/3880 economical once you've dealt with the up front cost above the value of the ink included with the printer.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: mackguyver on December 06, 2013, 07:57:01 AM
I bought a Pro-100 several weeks ago when Adorama had it for $100AR with free paper.  For that price, I thought it would be worthwhile to get some additional control and convenience over my prints.  So far I've made about 30 prints (mostly 8x10) and the indicators still show everything as full.  Does it drop like a cheap car fuel gauge or something? I.e. 300 miles to half tank, 350 miles to 1/4 tank, 10 miles to Empty!

I have a Pro-10 and the ink levels drop fast in my use.

I have some 13 x 19 prints I have done, and those are quite a bit bigger than 4 x 6 or 8 x 10. Could ba a "duh" moment, or maybe I had different expectations.

I think I have done about 10 each 13 x 19 and probably 20 8.5 x 11 and maybe a dozen 4 x 6, and I'm through the starter inks and getting into a 3rd change on some.

The Pro-10 cartridges have an ink volume of 14ml and cost ~$16 each.

The Epson 3800 cartridges have an ink volume of 80ml and cost ~$60 each.

Simply based on volume and OEM ink costs, Canon is $91.42 for 80ml of ink (5.7 Canon cartridges for 80ml). This doesn't account for wasted ink during cartridge replacement. Six cartridges = $96. Both printers don't use the same number of ink cartridges, so a direct comparison is difficult.

There is a print cost comparison at Red River Papers, and the Canon is roughly 2x Epson per print in their testing.

There is an established Epson ink aftermarket too.

So, the smaller cartridges explain why the levels drop fast on bigger prints.

I find the Canon Pro-10 output very nice, but it isn't economical*. It would have been better to figure this out beforehand :)

* inkjet printing isn't "economical", but small ink cartridges don't match well with bigger prints...
Thanks for the detailed reply and that's some interesting math!  I have owned several Epson printers over the years and have never been happy with the color, even after extensive calibration.  The Canon profiles and ability to print in 16-bit color aren't perfect, but MUCH closer than any of my calibrated Epson's ever were.  Being able to make a single print versus many to get the color right is going to save me a lot of money.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: danski0224 on December 06, 2013, 08:25:49 AM
Thanks for the detailed reply and that's some interesting math!  I have owned several Epson printers over the years and have never been happy with the color, even after extensive calibration.  The Canon profiles and ability to print in 16-bit color aren't perfect, but MUCH closer than any of my calibrated Epson's ever were.  Being able to make a single print versus many to get the color right is going to save me a lot of money.

The first few prints out of my new to me printer weren't so good. I used the modified version of the Atkinson Test Print that is available for free online.

The print done with the Canon Pro-10 was stunning.

First print from Epson 3800 was bleh. More like WTF because the demo print that was done for me was absolutely stunning on the same Canon paper. The person I bought the printer from sells prints for a living, so I bet he had it dialed in...

Then I found a new revision for Traditional Photo Paper ICC profiles (10.0 12/09/2013) and PDF instructions on how to use it on the Epson website. Once I followed the instructions for Photoshop, I could not visually differentiate the Epson 3800 output from the pro-10 output- even using an Epson printer to print on Canon photo paper  ;D so my stash of buy one get 4 is good  ;).

Similar issues in Lightroom, but once I figured out what profile to use, print output was fantastic.

Even moreso considering that some of the cartridges in the 3800 printer are 3 years old.

Granted, the printer interface for the Pro-10 is much nicer than the Epson, and switching black inks is automatic on the Canon and must be done manually on the 3800.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: danski0224 on December 06, 2013, 08:36:19 AM

Good find. There's very little real difference between the two.

I highly recommend trying out Epson's Hot Press Bright paper. Epson has a paper sample pack that's worth getting. It has two sheets each of all the press variations, exhibition fiber, etc. I was a glossy paper fan until I tried the press papers. Of course there's a ton of papers from 3rd parties as well.

I may give that a shot.

I did pick up a pack of Canon matte paper, and although I didn't like it at first, the look has grown on me.

I also picked up the Red River sampler pack plus their special media sampler pack.

Once the remaining new inks come in, I'll change them and then do some test prints. I'll probably follow Red Rivers advice and just print the same image on each sampler page for reference.


Exactly. I do consider the 3800/3880 economical once you've dealt with the up front cost above the value of the ink included with the printer.

In the same line of thought, the Pro-10 has value for dialing in smaller prints.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: Quasimodo on December 06, 2013, 10:42:16 AM
I have a Pixma Pro 1 and I am very happy with it.

Printing home is expensive, and ink is only of of several factors, paper being the second most cost-driving issue. I use Canson A3+ paper, and each paper costs me around 7 dollar per print, and with the ink included I reckon a print costs me around 12 dollars. That said, I have complete control over the printing process, and the ability to download or create separate ICC profiles is a very nice feature. I seriously doubt if printing at a professional service would give me better results, maybe with the exception if I were to send my prints to Ilford in the UK.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: danski0224 on December 06, 2013, 12:32:16 PM
Well, those of us in the USA have had some pretty darn good deals on Canon paper lately, if you purchased from Canon USA. Still have a B1G4 thru 12/28.

For me, the cost of the paper is negligible.

I am hoping for a buy 1 get 4 ink sale....

 ;D
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: mackguyver on December 06, 2013, 12:53:38 PM
I am hoping for a buy 1 get 4 ink sale....

 ;D
+10000000000 on that one, but doubt it will ever happen!  I've stocked up on the paper, too - the buy one get 9 free deal was crazy!
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: alexanderferdinand on December 06, 2013, 01:41:11 PM
I print myself, and I am glad to have the 3800.
Yes, around €1200 buying it, but then you have the lovely 80ml ink cartridges.

I love to print myself, because of my history having a darkroom in the past century for decades and the control of every step.
And: the 3800/3880 are able to go down to 13x18cm (5x7inches) for my album.
Cleaning cycles: a necessary PITA, or you have clogging.

Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: dtaylor on December 07, 2013, 01:30:00 AM
Thanks for the detailed reply and that's some interesting math!  I have owned several Epson printers over the years and have never been happy with the color, even after extensive calibration.  The Canon profiles and ability to print in 16-bit color aren't perfect, but MUCH closer than any of my calibrated Epson's ever were.  Being able to make a single print versus many to get the color right is going to save me a lot of money.

I never have to make prints to get the color right with the 3880. As long as I keep my monitor calibrated and choose the correct paper profile, what I see is what I get. I should note that I have setup the lights in my office for proofing prints, both in terms of brightness and color temperature.

I can say the same for Advanced B&W mode with one change: I choose the Dark setting instead of the default (which I believer is Darker). With that one adjustment my B&W prints match my screen and are the equal of anything I used to produce in a darkroom, if not better.

This wasn't the case with past Epson printers I've used, especially when it came to B&W. But the 3880 was calibrated out of the box. And I have yet to encounter a bad paper profile from Epson or any of the 3rd parties.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: dtaylor on December 07, 2013, 01:36:32 AM
I did pick up a pack of Canon matte paper, and although I didn't like it at first, the look has grown on me.

Hot Press Bright won me over with the first print. Before that I was partial to glossy and semi gloss / luster papers. Hot Press Bright has the color, saturation, contrast, and deep blacks of glossy papers without the glossy sheen between your eyes and the detail. I love it.

For B&W I like Harman Matt Cotton Smooth a little better. For color, Hot Press Bright. But they are very, very close. If I'm out of one I won't hesitate to substitute the other. Most of what I print to hang on a wall now ends up on one of those two papers.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: dtaylor on December 07, 2013, 01:39:38 AM
Granted, the printer interface for the Pro-10 is much nicer than the Epson, and switching black inks is automatic on the Canon and must be done manually on the 3800.

Are you sure? If I'm on, say, photo black and pick a matte paper the 3880 will change for me. I don't have to walk up to the printer and change it on the printer UI.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: danski0224 on December 07, 2013, 08:27:33 AM
Are you sure? If I'm on, say, photo black and pick a matte paper the 3880 will change for me. I don't have to walk up to the printer and change it on the printer UI.

You may be right. I missed a sentence in the manual, and the printer may switch automatically.

"You may sometimes need to switch catridges as described below when using non-Epson media".

I am ordering the Epson "Signature Worthy" sampler pack.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: jrista on January 20, 2014, 09:53:27 PM
Okay, so here's the thing...  I have a Pixma Pro9000 II, which I have been using for about two years now, and for the same two years I have been repeatedly and increasingly frustrated with its ink usage until I have to hold myself back from throwing the POS out of the window (such as today). 

I KNOW I put in brand new cartridges a month ago, and in this interval, I printed maybe 50 black and white pages of text at low quality, and maybe a handful of photos.  Now this thing is telling me I'm out of cyan and magenta.  WTF?!  All other ink levels are more or less full.

Now look, I did not print a handful of cyan and magenta posters this month.  We're talking 4x6 balanced exposures here.  This sort of random ink depletion happens with other random colors too.  In fact, I don't even need to print to see the ink levels drop before my eyes.  All I have to do is turn the printer on and off, and the ink is visibly lower than seconds prior! Some drop, while others remain.  Tomorrow, when I turn in on, it's probably going to tell me that I'm running low on red, although today it's full.

It costs me around $80 to fill this piece of sheisse up with ink each time, so I'm sure you understand my frustration. 

Based on my observations, I have arrived at the following hypotheses:
1.  Every time the printer does its stupid buzzing and clicking cleaning cycle, it actually sprays geysers of color like Ron Jeremy after eating a kilo of Skittles.
2.  My printer heads may dry out periodically because of low humidity or something, and the printer decides to flush the contents of its cartridges to get anything through.
3.  The ink evaporates.
4.  Canon deliberately programmed this thing to engage in ink wasting cycles other than printing my photography or timed the cartridges to deplete after a certain period of time.

I'm curious if anyone in this community has ever experienced anything of the sort, and what you have done to remedy this.

You have to print on a very regular basis to get the most out of your ink cartridges. On both Canon and Epson ink jets, if you don't print for a couple of weeks, one of two things WILL happen:

 1. The printer will perform a small amount of automatic ink consumption to keep it flowing.
 2. The ink will dry out, clog either the cartridge, the ink head, or both.

Quote
"I KNOW I put in brand new cartridges a month ago, and in this interval, I printed maybe 50 black and white pages of text at low quality, and maybe a handful of photos."

^^ THIS ^^ is your problem: "a handful of photos". If you don't print for a while, or print enough often enough, at the very least some ink will be consumed if you have the printer configured to prevent drying (which is usually an option on the higher end models.) Even if you let the printer do it's think to keep ink flowing, if you don't print for long enough (which can be as short as two weeks), the ink WILL start to dry. This is more of a problem with pigments than dyes, but it can happen with both.

A dry ink cartridge will sometimes trigger a change in the tanks chip that makes it tell the printer that it's empty, when it isn't. If that happens, the tank is well and truly gone, dried like a bone. If that doesn't happen, but you are missing a color in your prints, you can try running a couple cleaning cycles to see if that will clear any blockage. Maybe 40% of the time, you can clear up blockage in a dried tank or ink head. Usually, though, once they dry, whether they register as empty or not, they need replacing (again, more so the case with pigments.) Keep in mind that if you do run a couple cleaning cycles, your going to drain ink from that whole bank of tanks. Sometimes it's actually cheaper to just replace the one tank, instead of ending up having to replace five of them.

Also, keep in mind that different color ink is susceptible to drying in different time frames. On my PIXMA Pro9500 II, yellow and magenta tend to dry out quicker than other colors. Gray seems to "seep" more than other colors. The only means I have to combat the issue is to keep printing, so I get my money's worth out of those very expensive 14ml ink tanks. I would also point out that dye inks are pretty runny, and they stay that way so long as they are in solution. Dye is particles suspended in a thinner, where as pigments are emulsions. Dye ink tanks can indeed bleed like a son of a gun if they are not handled properly. You should never pinch a die or pigment ink tank from the sides...even the slightest pressure on a Canon dye tank will result in a significant amount of ink squirting all over the place. I just put some tanks into my MX922, and on one of them, just a little bit of shaking and gravity resulted in two relatively large drops leaking out, ruining my shirt and staining my floor. This is one of the reasons I went with the Pro9500 II, rather than the 9000 II...pigments are a lot easier to handle, and don't squirt out of the tank at all in any circumstance.

Just keep printing. If you have no reason to print, then you might find that a cheaper printer with cheaper ink tanks is more conducive to your needs.
Title: Re: Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy
Post by: jrista on January 20, 2014, 10:00:05 PM
Have any of you considered refilling your own ink cartridges?  It's simple to do, a very cost effective way to print and is cheaper than you'd think.

http://www.precisioncolors.com/index.html (http://www.precisioncolors.com/index.html)

Also, check out this Printer site.  So much knowledge over there about all that has been asked in this thread.

http://www.printerknowledge.com/ (http://www.printerknowledge.com/)

Note:  If any of you have the Pixma Pro 100 and have used cartridges, let me know..

You don't want to use third-party refill ink. It is not color compatible, meaning that if you use standard Canon ICC profiles for the paper types you print on, the color will NOT look correct. You wouldn't know there was any difference looking at just the pigment colors themselves in the tanks...but they ARE different enough that they will throw off color balance.

You can solve this problem by generating your own color profiles. A few hundred bucks in equipment, and as much as a thousand dollars in paper and inks, will usually be sufficient to allow you to create decent-quality ICC profiles for your new inks on the variety of papers you use most.

The only way to maintain proper color-correct workflow and ICM for the default ICC profiles created by most paper manufacturers is to stick with official Canon inks.